Is the UFC forgetting about true MMA fans...

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pv3Hpv3p
1/31/07 5:15:34PM
I have been a life long UFC fan. My first UFC experience was #7 when Ruas took Varlens in the finals and Oleg and Ken battled for like 35 min. It was a completely eye opening experince and turned me on to MMA for life.

I was checking out the fight card for UFC 67, and something got me thinking... Why would Tyson Griffen and Lyoto Machida be on the "May not be brodcast list", and Scott Smith and Cote are a guarenteed fight? Cote has a horrible UFC record, and Smith hasn't done much except the impressive knockout at the end of last year. Griffen might be the future of their fledgling LW div and Ryo will be a force to be reckoned with in the LHW (maybe MW if he can cut, and we could see a Rich rematch) division, IMO.

My question is this: Is the UFC forgetting about us? The folks that stuck with them through the hard times. The folks that enjoy all the aspects of mixed martial arts, not just the brutality. The people that will still be here when the 'novelty' of MMA wears off on fairweather fans.

Maybe it's just me, but the UFC seems to be catering to the 'drunk read-necks' that are one of the reasons some fighters and Pride supporters continually hate on the UFC. I can't stand seeing a fighter get interviewed after a fight and look like he's begging for acceptance from a mob of goons. This makes the UFC look bad, and makes American fans look aweful. These fighters should be appreciated for the sacrifices; the blood, the sweat, the hours of training they give for this great sport, and to have the tenacity to boo them is absolutley atrocious.

Sorry I don't mean to get preachy, but it just got me thinking: Can or will the UFC and Zuffa see past the dollar signs (the present) and look into the future. Have they already forgotten where they came from? I know Dana White and Zuffa has done a great deal for the 'mainstreaming' of the sport, but are we losing the integrity of MMA along the way?

Just got me think and had me a little worried, wrote it quickly, so I hope it came out right... Flame away
ElGuApO91
1/31/07 5:21:33PM
there not forgetting about the tuf fans. i hate those redneck fans all they want is blood and they boo if the fight goes to the ground.
waylon_o
1/31/07 5:22:17PM
I feel the same way...but it's business. How many people (other than us die-hards) have every heard of Lyoto? Nil...Zilch. How many people know Cote and Smith from the show? Especially Smith from that ko. It really sucks that the people that actually care don't get to see these great fighters and potentially great fights just so some douchbags that don't know Frank Shamrock from Takanori Gomi gets to see "the guy from TUF." What a rip off.
pv3Hpv3p
1/31/07 6:08:26PM

Posted by ElGuApO91

there not forgetting about the tuf fans. i hate those redneck fans all they want is blood and they boo if the fight goes to the ground.



That's the truth...

It's kind of a catch 22... UFC is trying to mainstream MMA, and are attracting exactly the type of people that gave mixed martial arts a bad name in the first place.
pv3Hpv3p
1/31/07 6:13:58PM

Posted by waylon_o

I feel the same way...but it's business. How many people (other than us die-hards) have every heard of Lyoto? Nil...Zilch. How many people know Cote and Smith from the show? Especially Smith from that ko. It really sucks that the people that actually care don't get to see these great fighters and potentially great fights just so some douchbags that don't know Frank Shamrock from Takanori Gomi gets to see "the guy from TUF." What a rip off.



I know it's business, and that's what got me thinking about it... At what point is the UFC's seamingly shameless promoting going to start effecting the sport itself?

Unfortunately you can't argue with the almighty dollar, and they are bringing in the big bucks...
nate22
1/31/07 6:21:38PM
I agree entireley with what you are saying and it's a great discussion topic, I just really think that in five years we will be thanking the UFC for what they have done, I think they will only employ this tactic for a few years until they get the groth that they desire.
pv3Hpv3p
1/31/07 6:35:11PM
that's exactly what I'm hoping for...

I'm not trying to bash the UFC, I realize that what they are doing towards the legitimization of the sport...

I guess I just had a bad vision of it possibly spiraling out of control, but in all reality you're probably right...

Just growing pains (i hope)
nate22
1/31/07 6:38:35PM

Posted by pv3Hpv3p

that's exactly what I'm hoping for...

I'm not trying to bash the UFC, I realize that what they are doing towards the legitimization of the sport...

I guess I just had a bad vision of it possibly spiraling out of control, but in all reality you're probably right...

Just growing pains (i hope)



It has spiralled already in a way I think, the points you made were valid, for instance about us maybe not seeing Machida and so on. This is similar to the thread yesterday about how tuf has affected ufc, my reply for that is pretty relevant for this too I think

No not at all. If I had got into the sport in 2006 instead of a number of years before then I'm pretty sure I would argue differently. No disrespect to the TUF fighters, many have really impressed and some I am now a genuine fan of.

There are so many fighters around who we know have better records, credentials and stature who should be challenging or signed in place of those catapulted by TUF. It's not the same sort of catapult as winning the belt in KOTC for example or so on, it's more of a gifthorse in my opinion. This is annoying in a way as there's fighters who I feel have missed out on oppurtunites, pushed back in line or out of line, so I know alot of fans are resentful about that.

On the other hand these TUF fighters are not exactly bums out of nowhere. Alot are on the show for a reason, yes there has been a few complete WTF's but still, overall the quality has not been too disappointing in any of the seasons.

The growth however has created alot more long term opputunities for the sport, younger fighters as a whole. It really, really has, look at what has spawned really in the light of the shows and the influx of new fans to help support the new organisations. A couple of years ago MMA was basically kept alive by the underground support, this was apparent when I first became a fan but now it has witnessed the growth to help sustain it's existence for years to come.

I feel in a way this may have sacrificed a few years and oppurtunities to some of the existing fighters, it's hard to deny there has been a number of guys who have been put out of the picture due to the influx of TUF guys on the scene. However at the same time they have allowed for UFN and the rest of the growth that's seeing so many more events a year, deeper cards and stacked divsions with many guys with top ten potential.

The UFC have done an amazing job in terms of helping the sport grow and make alot of money for themselves at the process. At the same time they have created a brilliant MMA organisation and we have not even began to reap the benefits of their recent acquistions and business orientation, it's a good year ahead.

I get to see UFC in Manchester and there's one this weekend and there was one last. It's all good :)

hippysmacker
1/31/07 7:25:29PM
I think these are valid concerns, but it doesn't matter becasue so many of these fights are mismatches that they will be over quick. We might get to see every fight on the card. As for Smith/Cote it's one of the few competitive fight's on the card.
aceprone
1/31/07 7:30:36PM
I really don't think the UFC is forgetting about the hardcore mma fans. They are bringing Cro Cop over right? And they do have Rampage and Machida, just because they're not going to show Machida they're doging the hardcore fans? The thing someone has to remember is most of American mma fans aren't hardcore fans. So I think they're trying their best to please both crowds. MMA is still growing, so don't count anything out yet.
tffdwg38
1/31/07 7:53:59PM
i want to see all fights on the cards i hate paying 40 bucks a payview and only seeing 7 out of the 9 fights its bs u should at least have the option to watch them or not
pv3Hpv3p
1/31/07 7:54:06PM
I'm not counting anybody out by any means, and I was just using Machida and Griffen as an example. t's not just the fights they decide to show / not to show...

It's the fact that it's hard to make a ligit argument for the sport when it carries a negative stigma throughout the majority of the US.

It can start to be counter productive to the sport when you are attracting the kinds of fans that are there for blood and guts, and don't seem to appreciate the finer points of the fight game.

I know that these sorts of people do not represent all US MMA fans (they certainly don't represent me), but they are becoming the face of UFC's MMA fans because they can't be ignored. They are lending credibility to the arguement that MMA is brutal and just feeds the animalistic hunger some people have for violence.

It has taken a long time and a lot of work to have people even consider mixed martial arts as a 'mainstream' sport, and I just think that it would be a shame if this somehow backfired and ended up detrimental to the sport.
aceprone
2/1/07 12:11:49AM
I totally agree with you. I hate talking to someone about mma and all they can think about is "oh man, did you see that one guy get knocked out that one time?" or "man, that fight was dumb, all they did was roll on the ground." Drives me insane, because I know that there was so much more to the fight then someone getting knocked out. The thing about it is, when someone compares American MMA fans being ignorant then Japan's MMA fans, one must consider that of course Japan's mma fans are going to be educated in Martial Arts. It's their history. Martial Arts is Japan's past times. Their heroes are the stories of Samurai's and American heroe's are old west gun slingers.
With that being sad, I do wish mma organizations would better educate the audience on what's going in fight, then just someone getting knocked out. But it's going to take time for American fans to catch up to the knowledge of thousands of years of martial art knowledge of Japanese fans.
hippysmacker
2/1/07 12:23:41AM

Posted by aceprone

I totally agree with you. I hate talking to someone about mma and all they can think about is "oh man, did you see that one guy get knocked out that one time?" or "man, that fight was dumb, all they did was roll on the ground." Drives me insane, because I know that there was so much more to the fight then someone getting knocked out. The thing about it is, when someone compares American MMA fans being ignorant then Japan's MMA fans, one must consider that of course Japan's mma fans are going to be educated in Martial Arts. It's their history. Martial Arts is Japan's past times. Their heroes are the stories of Samurai's and American heroe's are old west gun slingers.
With that being sad, I do wish mma organizations would better educate the audience on what's going in fight, then just someone getting knocked out. But it's going to take time for American fans to catch up to the knowledge of thousands of years of martial art knowledge of Japanese fans.



Agreed. I would add that most of the people at the fight's live probably aren't the most hardcore fans. It's become the place to be now , and you need a lot of money to be there. Obviously as a whole their are more knowledgable MMA fans in Japan, us diehards just usually happen to be watvhing it on PPV..
roadking95th
2/1/07 12:26:00AM
Like most have already stated, it is purely a "business" manuever. I do hope that once the general fans become more educated, the proper fights will be showcased. With the increase of exposure, there will be more coverage in the media. This will help with this transition.

Why can't they show all the fights on the card. At worst, they could do the pay per views in their current format and then show the remainder of the preliminary fights at the end. This could temporary solve both problems.

hippysmacker
2/1/07 12:34:59AM

Posted by roadking95th

Like most have already stated, it is purely a "business" manuever. I do hope that once the general fans become more educated, the proper fights will be showcased. With the increase of exposure, there will be more coverage in the media. This will help with this transition.

Why can't they show all the fights on the card. At worst, they could do the pay per views in their current format and then show the remainder of the preliminary fights at the end. This could temporary solve both problems.




Excellent point. We pay $40 bucks for these PPV's and the UFC and Pride almost never show the whole card. I end up rooting for fight's to get finished fast just so I can see them all. There have been some very good undercard fights over the years that we don't see till the DVD comes out. So that's another $20.
aceprone
2/1/07 12:36:10AM
That would be sweet if they'd show the whole card, but that would probably also mean spending more money on the paperview.
Jackelope
2/1/07 1:23:56AM
Conversations like this are why I love the martial arts world.

I think there have been some excellent points brought up in this discussion. One of the things I learned in martial arts (pre-Army.. when I had time!) is that almost every dude wants to give it a try but so few are willing to stick it out for the long haul. They think there's some secret code besides hard work and lots of time that shows you how to fight. As though going to a school for a month is going to unlock a mystical power within them that will turn them into a super badass. When all they're really learning in that time is enough shit to teach them how to get their ass kicked. So they go through that first couple of months learning new and exciting things which keep them interested until they reach a sort of wall where the learning becomes much more subtle and yet deeper for those who are able to see it. The fair weather students drop off at this point, but the true hard cores stick around and become great fighters. What those fair weather students don't realize is that is the exact point at which they stop being regular joes and start turning into fighters should they continue.

I think this directly applies to the UFC fans being addressed in this post. They want to see the brutal knock out and don't appreciate the learning process going on during those strenuous minutes wrestling around on the ground. I'm sure many people on here (myself included) appreciate the middle parts of those fights at times much more than they appreciate the end.

So how do those two connect? When the fair weather UFC fan (/fair weather student type) loses his interest in a few years, the hard cores will still be around. That's when the sport will really grow to see true fruition and amazing fighters. The fans left during that time will be well educated fans who will help contribute to the sport greatly themselves. Perhaps not the UFC, but the UFC's opening of the MMA door to the mainstream will be directly related.

Just my 2 cents. I've learned through the years that true martial artists are much deeper people who are able to transcend bullshit. I don't think the mass of martial artists in this world would allow money, an out of control UFC or anything else to ruin MMA. There will always be something for the real hard cores.

As for Cote... I like the guy's perseverance and personally I think he's learned a lot in each fight he's been in. Call me crazy, but I see the potential in him. I look for his record to improve
ac_gi
2/1/07 1:29:38AM

Posted by aceprone

That would be sweet if they'd show the whole card, but that would probably also mean spending more money on the paperview.



I would be willing to pay extra for the undercards, but I'm sure other's would not. Actually, thats a great idea!
aceprone
2/1/07 1:31:39AM
I do know you can pay for the undercard fights on the UFC websight, but that's no fun when you got friends over.

"Hey everyone, gather around my computer!"
crimethinc
2/1/07 1:45:52AM
Without the UFC (especially stateside) there would be almost no "true MMA fans." Just think back on most people's (myself included) first introduction to the world of MMA. It was UFC. There is always going to be a sense of elitism with long time MMA fans. That happens with anything that has been around longer then a decade but is just recently going mainstream. I hate watching fights with people who don't know anything about MMA and hear them say things like "why are they just dancing around and hugging each other." I wanted to fight a friends dad because he was saying that WWE fighters were tougher then these guys. The "Redneck KO" is just higly touted because American and European cultures were raised on boxing. Most people don't even know what they are looking at when they see BJJ, that's why there are no BJJ events on television. All of the TUF fighters on PPV cards are selling points. People pay to see fighters they recognize so they have someone to cheer for. That celebrity boxing was one of the stupidest shows on television, but tons of people watched it because they knew the fighters. People can say what they want about the UFC and how trendy it's making MMA but it has been a huge contribution to the sport and opened a lot of new eyes.
Jackelope
2/1/07 2:00:09AM

Posted by crimethinc

Without the UFC (especially stateside) there would be almost no "true MMA fans." Just think back on most people's (myself included) first introduction to the world of MMA. It was UFC. There is always going to be a sense of elitism with long time MMA fans. That happens with anything that has been around longer then a decade but is just recently going mainstream. I hate watching fights with people who don't know anything about MMA and hear them say things like "why are they just dancing around and hugging each other." I wanted to fight a friends dad because he was saying that WWE fighters were tougher then these guys. The "Redneck KO" is just higly touted because American and European cultures were raised on boxing. Most people don't even know what they are looking at when they see BJJ, that's why there are no BJJ events on television. All of the TUF fighters on PPV cards are selling points. People pay to see fighters they recognize so they have someone to cheer for. That celebrity boxing was one of the stupidest shows on television, but tons of people watched it because they knew the fighters. People can say what they want about the UFC and how trendy it's making MMA but it has been a huge contribution to the sport and opened a lot of new eyes.



Good post
redmist
2/1/07 9:44:27AM
i think you make a very good point. All we can hope for is that new fans will be intrested enough to educate themselves, and in time learn to appreciate all facets of the sport.

in the mean-time the onus is on guys like Machida to win and win impressively so that they can no longer be ignored.

good thread
allevil86
2/1/07 10:46:04AM
Everyone in here is right on it's the $$$$$
Jeffanori-Gomi
2/1/07 2:26:52PM

Posted by hippysmacker


Posted by aceprone

I totally agree with you. I hate talking to someone about mma and all they can think about is "oh man, did you see that one guy get knocked out that one time?" or "man, that fight was dumb, all they did was roll on the ground." Drives me insane, because I know that there was so much more to the fight then someone getting knocked out. The thing about it is, when someone compares American MMA fans being ignorant then Japan's MMA fans, one must consider that of course Japan's mma fans are going to be educated in Martial Arts. It's their history. Martial Arts is Japan's past times. Their heroes are the stories of Samurai's and American heroe's are old west gun slingers.
With that being sad, I do wish mma organizations would better educate the audience on what's going in fight, then just someone getting knocked out. But it's going to take time for American fans to catch up to the knowledge of thousands of years of martial art knowledge of Japanese fans.



Its true Japanese fans arent as annoying as some american fans. The booing IMO is really lame but lets not forget Japanese fans boo in their own way....They Whistle! So If u hear whistling at a Pride event thats akin to booing. And as for UFC forgetting about hardcore mma fans I think that not having freak show bouts with Giant Silva vs Minowa in the UFC is a testament to their commitment to the sport, not just for hilariousness (BTW i love those giant silva fights!!!)
xkillerbx
2/1/07 5:45:54PM
Unfortunately the die hard fans aren't the ones that pay the bills, the TUF fans are. So, they cater more to the TUF fans. Sucks for the die hards.
jmoooooo
2/3/07 2:56:51AM
another way of looking at this -

Machida, while well known by "die hard" (i hate elitist terms like that) fans is unproven in the UFC, and they already have 2 UFC debuts on the main card(rampage and crocop) and i think part of the reason smith/cote made it was to add some regulars to the mix. catering to all fans (die hard fans get to see rampage/crocop, exclusively UFC fans still get some name recognition, especially seeing as GSP/Serra isnt happening)

another way of looking at it......

while they left off Machida, which displeases hardcore, more worldly mma fans, they are also leaving off Hogar, who is a TUF fighter.....so the same question being asked here could be reversed....

another way of looking at it....

While Cote's record isnt spectacular, he usually makes for exciting fights (decision wars against Ortiz and Leben, a good fight 3rd round sub loss against joe doerkson), and has a history with UFC fans (not just "TUF Noobs" - another elitist term i hate to use)

Cote also has good creds, TKO light heavyweight champion, KOTC light heavyweight champion, MFC world middleweight champion (same org that jason macdonald fights in...and is fighting in tonight february 3) so hes not just a TUF fighter

I have been watching Cote for a long time, not just since TUF 4 (which i didnt even watch) and while im excited that Machida is in the UFC, i would rather see Cote fight.

I think the UFC isnt forgetting about "true MMA" fans....i think they are offering a good mix. two new fighters to the UFC that a lot of fans wont know much about, but still having name recognition and history as well. I think its a good balance, and thats the only way the UFC can do it to try and please everyone.

While i dont think that Cote is a big draw on a card like this, i certainly think he is a bigger draw (at this point) than Machida, with respect to the entire UFC fan base.

always more than one way to look at something......
hippysmacker
2/3/07 3:24:56AM

Posted by jmoooooo

another way of looking at this -

Machida, while well known by "die hard" (i hate elitist terms like that) fans is unproven in the UFC, and they already have 2 UFC debuts on the main card(rampage and crocop) and i think part of the reason smith/cote made it was to add some regulars to the mix. catering to all fans (die hard fans get to see rampage/crocop, exclusively UFC fans still get some name recognition, especially seeing as GSP/Serra isnt happening)

another way of looking at it......

while they left off Machida, which displeases hardcore, more worldly mma fans, they are also leaving off Hogar, who is a TUF fighter.....so the same question being asked here could be reversed....

another way of looking at it....

While Cote's record isnt spectacular, he usually makes for exciting fights (decision wars against Ortiz and Leben, a good fight 3rd round sub loss against joe doerkson), and has a history with UFC fans (not just "TUF Noobs" - another elitist term i hate to use)

Cote also has good creds, TKO light heavyweight champion, KOTC light heavyweight champion, MFC world middleweight champion (same org that jason macdonald fights in...and is fighting in tonight february 3) so hes not just a TUF fighter

I have been watching Cote for a long time, not just since TUF 4 (which i didnt even watch) and while im excited that Machida is in the UFC, i would rather see Cote fight.

I think the UFC isnt forgetting about "true MMA" fans....i think they are offering a good mix. two new fighters to the UFC that a lot of fans wont know much about, but still having name recognition and history as well. I think its a good balance, and thats the only way the UFC can do it to try and please everyone.

While i dont think that Cote is a big draw on a card like this, i certainly think he is a bigger draw (at this point) than Machida, with respect to the entire UFC fan base.

always more than one way to look at something......



Very original point. Appreciate and like Cote too. I actually think he has a great chin(took a lot of punishment vs Tito/Leben). Cote/leben was a good war, but I think he still needs a lot of help on the ground. I'm glad they have him fighting Smith, because he likes to stand. I think Cote/Smith and probably Rampage/Eastman will be the most exciting fight's of the card. The difference being I think Cote/Smith is tougher to call, but I took Cote based on the Leben fight.
Trapt1nw0nder
2/3/07 3:46:48AM
i made a thread similar to this one on Sherdog about a month ago...got like 200 replies in like 3-4 hours

i said why dont UFC make their PPV a good solid 4 hours long? from 2 1/2-3 hours......lots of people were saying 4 hours was too long..and i was like..u kidding?

some people were saying that the reason they dont make 4 hour PPV was because blocks of PPV time were bought in sections of 3 hours,but thats not true cuz most Boxing sceduled time is 4 hours but most of the times finish early(yeah i am Huge boxing fan too)............what the hell am i talking about???(stoned).....

anyways...i do think UFC needs to do something to cater more to us true fans....maybe they can show the unaired undercards free on spike the following week....

they also piss me off when they try to charge us on UFC website,just so you can talk in their forums and chats....like if they dont make enough money from advertising from their sponsers.....i guess only true fans have money to waste

like some girl said from this tv channel i watch(g4..video game channel)...."if you see ads,you should get free stuff"....if they are charging us $40 and them making a Shit load of money with Advertising then we deserve an extra hour

4 hour PPV would put a smile on my face


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Svartorm
2/3/07 4:03:34AM
One of the big parts of the 3 vs 4 hour debate should have been the bar issue.

Bars that have commercial cable are charged MUCH more for PPVs than you. The bar next to where I work used to air UFC, Boxing, and Pride (because I bribed them ), but stopped because the cable company found out they weren't residential cable, but commercial and commerical cable PPVs are 6 times as much. The cost went from $40-$50 to $240-$300 overnight and they'd no longer be turning a profit, so they stopped. Adding $10 to the initial bill would just make it worse.

I personally think they should include the unaired fights as a seperate one hour PPV after the event, so if you want them, you can dish out the extra $10.
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