Should the UFC award draws in close fights?

MMAPlayground.com » MMA General » UFC Forum » Should the UFC award draws in close fights?
Next Page »
POLL: Should the UFC score some fights as draws?
Yes. Sometimes there's just no loser, and everybody knows it. 47% (21)
No. Make the fighters go for it. Win or go home! 53% (24)
AchillesHeel
6/20/07 11:35:44AM
I don't know if they're explicit about it, but it certainly seems as though the UFC judges have a policy of not awarding draws, even in the closest of contests.

Clay Guida-Tyson Griffin. Forest Griffin-Stephan Bonnar I. Stephan Bonnar-Keith Jardine. Diego Sanchez-Karo Parisyan. Ed Herman-Kendall Grove.*

There are two arguments that I can see against draws:

First is the fear that some fighters could slack off in a close fight, rather than going for the gold.

I don't buy that, though. I doubt many pro athletes would feel good knowing he or she had scored a draw when he could have gone for the win. As it is, some fighters slack off anyway, and those guys are increasingly booed by fans and censured by management.

Second, some fans just don't like draws in sports; they feel like it's an "incomplete" match or something if there's no declared winner. When Major League Soccer started, they didn't allow draws because they thought American fans wouldn't like them, and I believe the NHL has changed its rules over the last few years.

I don't buy this either, though. MLS got its head out of its ass after a couple of years and instituted proper soccer rules, and the few hockey fans that I know think the NHL is increasingly stupid.

And of course, draws could never be allowed in title fights, regardless.






* (I'm hoping you won't start arguing about whether these particular fights were worthy of being called draws or not. I'm talking more generally here, about whether draws are good or bad, on the whole.)
tepid55
6/20/07 12:06:13PM
I think that if a title fight when a title isn't vacant goes the distance, it should automaticly be declared a draw.
Mayo
6/20/07 12:13:28PM
The most infamous "draw" I can think of is Royce vs Shamrock (rematch). Even Royce was pissed about the "draw" and claimed that Shamrock planned for a draw since he knew he couldn't be Royce.

I agree with Royce... "draw" sucks! There is a lack of fullfillment. There is a reason why there is an odd number of rounds... so that there is no draw.
szucconi
6/20/07 12:25:49PM
Draws are possible, but there are three rounds to avoid them. Three rounds would mean you need a 10-8 round to have a shot at a draw and if a 10-8 round happens you are less likely to have a draw because someone is dominate.
NME
6/20/07 12:37:28PM

Posted by tepid55

I think that if a title fight goes the distance, it should automaticly be declared a draw.



So Tim Sylvia is still the champion in your world.


Your world stinks.
richieb19
6/20/07 12:46:47PM

Posted by Mayo

The most infamous "draw" I can think of is Royce vs Shamrock (rematch). Even Royce was pissed about the "draw" and claimed that Shamrock planned for a draw since he knew he couldn't be Royce.

I agree with Royce... "draw" sucks! There is a lack of fullfillment. There is a reason why there is an odd number of rounds... so that there is no draw.

Actually thats not exactly true, Shamrock has said often times that he planned a 2+ hour fight with Royce, he wanted to exhaust him and bring him somewhere he had never been... oddly enough, the UFC, which at the time was using the slogan "no rules, no time limits", suddenly implemented a time limit, and forced the fight to a draw... either way you see it, Ken Shamrock was the clear winner.

As far as draws go now in the UFC, they are still possible, it's just very rare to see one... All it would take is for someone to win two rounds, but lose the one 10-8... or for someone to lose points from fouls. If it goes to the judges in the UFC there are actually 6 ways the judges can score it:

Unanimous Decision: 3-0-0
Majority Decision: 2-0-1
Split Decision: 2-1-0
Unanimous Draw: 0-0-3
Majority Draw: 1-0-2
Split Draw: 1-1-1
mmadb
6/20/07 12:49:46PM
I think 10-9 mandatory scoring is stupid. You should be able to score a round 10-10 or 9-9 if both fighters do squat. If it's tied after 3 rounds have a "sudden victory" round as Dana calls it on TUF if draws are that evil. I personally don't mind a draw.

Or you can judge the fight as a whole Pride styles which would be ideal in my opinion.
richieb19
6/20/07 12:57:41PM

Posted by mmadb

I think 10-9 mandatory scoring is stupid. You should be able to score a round 10-10 or 9-9 if both fighters do squat. If it's tied after 3 rounds have a "sudden victory" round as Dana calls it on TUF if draws are that evil. I personally don't mind a draw.

Or you can judge the fight as a whole Pride styles which would be ideal in my opinion.

Awarding 9-9 rounds for stalling isn't a bad idea at all, however it would have to be a very slow paced round from both fighters. The only reason they have the "sudden victory" round in TUF is because it's tournament format, and winner needs to advance, plus they are 2 round fights, which make it MUCH easier to be scored a draw...
mmadb
6/20/07 1:18:29PM
I realize why they do it on TUF, that was thrown in for those who don't like draws.

Like I said I prefer judging the fight as a whole. Using last weekend as an example, Okami wins that fight I bet.
Mastodon2
6/20/07 1:22:17PM

Posted by tepid55

I think that if a title fight goes the distance, it should automaticly be declared a draw.



Where is the logic in this? When we see Couture dominate people for 5 rounds, and controls absolutely every aspect of the fight (see his fights with Tito and Sylvia) you think he doesnt deserve to be champ?

I just cant understand why you would think this
mmadb
6/20/07 1:23:40PM
Screw it, no rounds, no time limit then!
richieb19
6/20/07 1:25:07PM

Posted by mmadb

Screw it, no rounds, no time limit then!

They tried that, but 30 minutes in they changed their minds...
mmadb
6/20/07 1:49:03PM
That damn Shamrock ruins everything, and I mean the one who isn't a douchebag.
THE_DRiZzLE
6/20/07 1:51:42PM
The way I see it.. they are in there to win the damn thing.. draws only encourage mediocre performances and fights.. it's there own damn fault if they allowed the fight to be so close in the first place.. play with fire and leave it in the judges hands and you just may get burned..
AchillesHeel
6/20/07 1:59:11PM

Posted by THE_DRiZzLE

The way I see it.. they are in there to win the damn thing.. draws only encourage mediocre performances and fights.. it's there own damn fault if they allowed the fight to be so close in the first place.. play with fire and leave it in the judges hands and you just may get burned..


This isn't about the boring fights, though. This is about the exciting, close fights. I don't think Guida and Griffin, or Sanchez and Parisyan, would have tried less to win if they knew a draw was possible. And guys like Arlovski are content to sit back and do nothing when they know they'll win the decision.
tepid55
6/20/07 2:34:07PM
You should have to "beat the champ" in a title fight. If you can't finish the champ off, you don't deserve to be the champion.
Mastodon2
6/20/07 2:38:56PM

Posted by tepid55

You should have to "beat the champ" in a title fight. If you can't finish the champ off, you don't deserve to be the champion.



Surely if you can prove you are better than the champ by dominating them until the time is up then you have done enough to deserve the title. I just dont see how you can look at performances like Coutures and say that he wasnt worthy of taking the belt.
tepid55
6/20/07 2:43:24PM
The reason I want a draw rule is to punnish guys that get a big lead and coast to victory.
AchillesHeel
6/20/07 2:43:55PM

Posted by Mastodon2

Surely if you can prove you are better than the champ by dominating them until the time is up then you have done enough to deserve the title. I just dont see how you can look at performances like Coutures and say that he wasnt worthy of taking the belt.


Right. Saying you have to win by TKO or Submission is changing the rules of victory, it's not about draws anymore.
Rush
6/20/07 3:06:49PM
I am all for the draw. If a fight is ruled as a split decision (i.e. close fight) then it is declared a draw.

The problem comes in when draws are awarded to bouts that might have a clear winner. The door can swing both ways.
AchillesHeel
6/20/07 3:30:56PM

Posted by Rush

The problem comes in when draws are awarded to bouts that might have a clear winner. The door can swing both ways.


Yes, but I don't see the option of awarding a draw increasing questionable judging decisions. I'd say it'd be just as likely to decrease the frequency of questionable decisions. Most likely, it would have no effect on that at all, given how we sports fans like to argue.
Rush
6/20/07 3:45:46PM
True I agree. I guess the positive side is that a draw doesn't taint your record like a loss does.

Then again, I think MMA is getting to the point where record means less than it does in other sports.
THE_DRiZzLE
6/20/07 9:17:09PM

Posted by AchillesHeel


Posted by THE_DRiZzLE

The way I see it.. they are in there to win the damn thing.. draws only encourage mediocre performances and fights.. it's there own damn fault if they allowed the fight to be so close in the first place.. play with fire and leave it in the judges hands and you just may get burned..


This isn't about the boring fights, though. This is about the exciting, close fights. I don't think Guida and Griffin, or Sanchez and Parisyan, would have tried less to win if they knew a draw was possible. And guys like Arlovski are content to sit back and do nothing when they know they'll win the decision.



Well Arlovski will be going nowhere fast if he keeps that crap up.. I don't see Dana wanting fighters just skating by.. that is not the way to get fans, nor is it anyway to get future fights.. who as a fan wants to see that shat.. but I agree with that point.. but in the long run anyone who does this will only hurt their career.. and not benefit from skating by in such a way.. so IMO I do not see this being a major occurrence among most fighters.. and yeah in some instances a fight should merit a draw.. Sanchez & Parisyan for example.. I guess it has it's pros and cons IMO..
XblacksheepX
6/20/07 10:14:49PM
i like the idea of an additional round after declaring a draw by the judges, at least for the main- and undercard fights, like it is managed in the K-1 tournament. In that case you have the behalf of if it's a really close fight like the ones mentioned both fighters have another 5 minutes of dissipating doubts that one of them is the better fighter. Still the judges need to be chary with draws, just for the case of that close calls..
hippysmacker
6/20/07 10:47:51PM

Posted by AchillesHeel

I don't know if they're explicit about it, but it certainly seems as though the UFC judges have a policy of not awarding draws, even in the closest of contests.

Clay Guida-Tyson Griffin. Forest Griffin-Stephan Bonnar I. Stephan Bonnar-Keith Jardine. Diego Sanchez-Karo Parisyan. Ed Herman-Kendall Grove.*

There are two arguments that I can see against draws:

First is the fear that some fighters could slack off in a close fight, rather than going for the gold.

I don't buy that, though. I doubt many pro athletes would feel good knowing he or she had scored a draw when he could have gone for the win. As it is, some fighters slack off anyway, and those guys are increasingly booed by fans and censured by management.

Second, some fans just don't like draws in sports; they feel like it's an "incomplete" match or something if there's no declared winner. When Major League Soccer started, they didn't allow draws because they thought American fans wouldn't like them, and I believe the NHL has changed its rules over the last few years.

I don't buy this either, though. MLS got its head out of its ass after a couple of years and instituted proper soccer rules, and the few hockey fans that I know think the NHL is increasingly stupid.

And of course, draws could never be allowed in title fights, regardless.






* (I'm hoping you won't start arguing about whether these particular fights were worthy of being called draws or not. I'm talking more generally here, about whether draws are good or bad, on the whole.)



Props. Excellent thread idea, and good reasoning on the possiblities.I would prefer these type of fights be a draw, because as you pointed out, I don't think either fighter was a loser in them. One other side note. I also wouldn't mnid a sudden victory round like they have on TUF if it's ruled a draw. Would add a new element of tension to fights IMO.
hippysmacker
6/20/07 10:50:30PM

Posted by tepid55

You should have to "beat the champ" in a title fight. If you can't finish the champ off, you don't deserve to be the champion.



Disagree, If that were true Fedor wouldn't be champ either. The beating he gave Big Nog was the most one-sided fight I've ever seen go to a decision.
Manfred
6/20/07 11:32:06PM

Posted by hippysmacker

Disagree, If that were true Fedor wouldn't be champ either. The beating he gave Big Nog was the most one-sided fight I've ever seen go to a decision.



and if it had happened in the UFC, they would've been 10-9 rounds. They dneed to use 10-8 and even 10-7 more. Domination doesn't mean 10-9. There could be a draw if they fixed the scoring session. MMA is not boxing and yet that's the scoring system they use.
DJDark41
6/20/07 11:37:30PM
There are certain times when a draw could be acceptable, but I think if they want to call a draw it will have to be REALLY close...if it looks even at first look, go back through and look for something to sway you one way or the other.



But, my argument against draws is that it doesn't solve anything...both guys will talk trash before the fight, saying they are gonna win...Then it comes to a draw and the fight is pointless and there is no sense of an end to the fight.



And by the way, the NHL did change the rules to eliminate draws and I think it was the best move they've made in years.
MattHughesFan
6/21/07 12:03:50AM
Draws are pointless, In MMA we really don't see 10-8 rounds all that often and when we do the guy who receives 8 points doesn't last to much longer. The only way i think there should be a draw is in the situation were there are fouls involved in which case i can see how a draw in warranted. Otherwise there should always be a winner. even in a fight that could go either way. someones got to win otherwise the fight was pointless. Now what someone said about if a title fight goes all the way it should be a draw. your telling me if someone gets dominated for 5 rounds ie. couture/sylvia and Couture/Ortiz then the current champ should be rewarded by keeping the belt because of the mere fact that he survived for 25 minutes. i just don't get it, it would be nice if you could explain your reasoning behind that one.

One thing MMA needs is a clear scoring system. what i mean by this is for example in the UFC "Bouts will be scored based on effective striking, grappling, aggression Takes Downs and octagon control" that means that each judge can judge a fight from a different prospectives. in a fight were Fighter A is effectively striking for half the fight and Fighter B is effectively taking down fighter A and inflicting just as much damage on the ground as fighter A was on his feet. The winner of the fight is then not determined on who fought better but which style each judge believes is superior to the other. this in effect causes split decisions which in a perfect world should never happen. Someone or maybe each athletic division in each stat needs to set a clear scoring system were effective striking is scored higher then Take downs or visa-versa as well as all the other elements including ground defense (for example if Fighter A is Taken down by Fighter B but fighter A nullifies fighter B while on his back he should be awarded the round should the round continue like that thus hopefully getting rid of lay and pray type fights). This way each fight should be scored exactly the same on each Judges score card making it easier to pick a clear winner thus getting rid of split decisions and draws (except when fouls are added)

Anyway thats just what i have to think

And BTW the shoot out in Hockey to determine a winner after OT is one of the best things hocky has done in a while and i personally think it should be used in the playoffs, unfortunately i don't think that will ever happen.
Signal2112
6/21/07 6:35:10AM
I don't think it would be a good idea. Sometimes there can only be one winner, and the fighters must push for the win. I know sometimes it's close, but I don't like draws...I can't think of one match I've seen where it was truely equal!

A close one would be Sakuraba vs Guy Mezger from the Pride 2000 Grand Prix. It was a close match, and Mezger edged the standup, but overall, Sakuraba was fighting to finish with standing offence, takedowns and submission attempts, he was pushing the pace while Mezger was looking like he was happier to hang back and keep his oppenent at bay with his reach advantage. I wasn't surprised by the draw decision, but I still felt that Sakuraba was ahead in that one. Still, he ended up winning due to Mezger leaving the ring and Shamrock pratting around like an idiot, insulting the referee and so on.
Pages: [1] 2
Related Topics