Training doesnt matter?

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Jeffanori-Gomi
3/24/07 11:59:49AM
So Im in the mma lounge forum and getting into a minor dispute with one of the other posters. My argument is that training MMA, boxing, Muay thai etc helps shapes ones perspective on watching MMA events.

I was then told that training doesnt really matter, and got a story about street fights and how just being tough is enough to compete.

Does anyone else see the fallacy in this? If training didnt matter then Tank Abbott would be the UFC HW champ?

Maybe it is just me but if Im watching say a football game, (a sport ive never played) with some college football players, wouldnt they have insight to areas you would only know IF you played the sport?

Im not trying to alienate any fans here, but the people on this forum who train, don't you guys notice when your talking to people who just watch MMA events have quite a small perspective on the sport?

your thoughts
Jeffanori-Gomi
3/24/07 12:26:11PM
I dont mean for this thread to demoralize anyones opinion. I think most people training/no training have lots of valid input
Rush
3/24/07 3:47:40PM
Hey Jeff

I tend to agree that training helps shape the technical understanding of MMA. I find that my experience helps me understand what's going on in a fight (during the fight) but doesn't necessarily help me predict the outcome.

Maybe some people are misunderstanding the difference between the two.

How many people would argue that you can't say much about being held in someone's guard unless you've experienced it first hand?

There are also a lot of people that talk about street fighting like they do it on a daily basis. Most of the "real" fighters that I know don't talk much about fighting unless it's the technical aspects of it. In my experience I have found that a lot of the street fight talk is used because they have no technical understanding themselves, but that is just my observation in the 'real world'.
Jeffanori-Gomi
3/24/07 7:46:44PM

Posted by Rush

Hey Jeff

I tend to agree that training helps shape the technical understanding of MMA. I find that my experience helps me understand what's going on in a fight (during the fight) but doesn't necessarily help me predict the outcome.

Maybe some people are misunderstanding the difference between the two.

How many people would argue that you can't say much about being held in someone's guard unless you've experienced it first hand?

There are also a lot of people that talk about street fighting like they do it on a daily basis. Most of the "real" fighters that I know don't talk much about fighting unless it's the technical aspects of it. In my experience I have found that a lot of the street fight talk is used because they have no technical understanding themselves, but that is just my observation in the 'real world'.



My sentiments exactly. There are guys who are physically gifted and would be naturals in combat sports.

Theres this 15 year old kid that I roll with who pretty much gets fullmount/ taps me out at will, because hes one of those guys that things come really naturally.

You know anyone like that?
Rush
3/24/07 8:03:57PM

Posted by Jeffanori-Gomi
Theres this 15 year old kid that I roll with who pretty much gets fullmount/ taps me out at will, because hes one of those guys that things come really naturally.

You know anyone like that?



Yeah me. lol

Just kidding. I do pick things up really fast, but I would never consider myself a prodigy (or even close).

I've never experienced those types of people. In fact, I see the opposite a lot. There are some people that I question how they walk around without hurting themselves. There are people in aikido that have no co-ordination whatsoever.

The nice thing is to see them develop over the first 6 months. However, there are still some people out there that have been training for over a year and still can't do the simplest of movements.

I also find that the people that struggle (a little) are better teachers because they are forced to understand the techniques and how they work.
Jeffanori-Gomi
3/25/07 12:12:11AM
Im really lucky because my Trainer was pro kickboxer and pro MMA and he trained at AMC pankration with Josh Barnett and a few other guys. He also trained with Dennis Kang. Plus there are a few pros that I spar with and we have a good atmosphere with the regulars. We tend to go a little harder on the noobies to weed out the wussies..

But ya some kids that I know have been there for years and are horrible and there some kids that have been there for 6 months and it feels like they've had a bunch of fights under their belt.

Personally my Jui jitsu is probably the worst IMO. My scramble and sprawl is okay but my offensive juijitsu is really bad. Thats why Im mainly a standup guy
bayonetxwork
3/25/07 5:14:43PM
I definitely agree. You can't even begin to imagine how hard it is to do some of the stuff you see these guys do, unless you do it.
Jeffanori-Gomi
3/25/07 6:23:19PM
I think little things you tend to appreciate more too. Like posting guys off the fence, gaining better body positions etc
Rush
3/25/07 7:51:32PM

Posted by Jeffanori-Gomi

I think little things you tend to appreciate more too. Like posting guys off the fence, gaining better body positions etc



Or just understanding how important body positioning actually is.
MonkeyPus
3/25/07 11:11:28PM

Posted by bayonetxwork

I definitely agree. You can't even begin to imagine how hard it is to do some of the stuff you see these guys do, unless you do it.


I had a completely different view of boxing once I sparred my first round. Its one thing to think you know what its like, its another to have experienced it.
Jeffanori-Gomi
3/26/07 1:03:23AM

Posted by MonkeyPus


Posted by bayonetxwork

I definitely agree. You can't even begin to imagine how hard it is to do some of the stuff you see these guys do, unless you do it.


I had a completely different view of boxing once I sparred my first round. Its one thing to think you know what its like, its another to have experienced it.



With boxing especially, I experienced the same thing. After my first day sparring i stopped circling into eveyones power hands
MethodMan
3/27/07 5:45:02AM
You can sometimes get an insight into the fighters game plan, which could be missed by somebody simply watching the action. I think people who do fight MMA appreciate the ground game more, while stand up is kinetic and the damage done obvious, the ground game tends to be methodical and finshed by subs, most non-fighters dont comprehend how much these subs hurt or the damge that can be done with them. I think serious fans can come to appreciate the ground game but they dont feel it, I dont know about you guys but when watching a fast arm bar or heel hook I get a twing and my body remembers what that felt like when it was done on me.
Rush
3/27/07 4:06:20PM

Posted by MethodMan

You can sometimes get an insight into the fighters game plan, which could be missed by somebody simply watching the action. I think people who do fight MMA appreciate the ground game more, while stand up is kinetic and the damage done obvious, the ground game tends to be methodical and finshed by subs, most non-fighters dont comprehend how much these subs hurt or the damge that can be done with them. I think serious fans can come to appreciate the ground game but they dont feel it, I dont know about you guys but when watching a fast arm bar or heel hook I get a twing and my body remembers what that felt like when it was done on me.



yes, good point, but how can you explain the Japanese fans appreciating the ground game more in Pride compared to the North American fans in the UFC?

I would bet that the proportion of Japanese fans that actually train (MMA, or whatever) is the same or lower than the North American fans.
SteedTheDeed
4/9/07 1:45:57PM
having trained on the ground does help you watch grappling more. why else would people who dont train it think its "boring" when it is very exciting.
Mastodon2
4/9/07 6:43:34PM
Having done a bit of Judo and kick boxing, I can understand how when a fight looks like its going nowhere on the ground to the average guy, it can actually be a very hard fought battle.

And I know how easy it is to get tired quickly when fighting too.
MethodMan
4/16/07 4:57:58AM
Fans of any nationality can come to greatly appreciate the ground game especially if they are serious fans as opposed to casual spectators, there is also a high level of respect for fighters and those that sacrifice and train hard to be the best in Japan, while the same dedication is sometimes scoft at in the west.
garrick
4/16/07 12:38:05PM
You all make good points. Some people may be given a gift to fight, others have to train their butt of to win in a match. But even if your natural gifted, I think theirs still the question of good conditioning.
hook_tothe_body
4/17/07 8:15:30PM
I haven't started any training yet but I plan to. Kickboxing/JJ.

I watch MMA now and I can appericiate the little things the fighters do like fighting for position, set-ups for submissions and takedowns, faking a punch making someone commit to something and then shooting in, or fake going low for a shot then come in with a strike, or working the body so your opponents hands drop just a little bit when you go to throw a punch then you hit up high or vice versa, or kicking to get your opponent worried about that then work the hands a little bit, things like that.

It makes me mad when people boo a fight that is on the ground just because they don't understand what is going on.

I know that once I actually start training and learning that I'll have even more of an understanding and therefore appericiation for fighting.
shinobi
4/17/07 11:21:50PM

Posted by Jeffanori-Gomi

So Im in the mma lounge forum and getting into a minor dispute with one of the other posters. My argument is that training MMA, boxing, Muay thai etc helps shapes ones perspective on watching MMA events.

I was then told that training doesnt really matter, and got a story about street fights and how just being tough is enough to compete.

Does anyone else see the fallacy in this? If training didnt matter then Tank Abbott would be the UFC HW champ?

Maybe it is just me but if Im watching say a football game, (a sport ive never played) with some college football players, wouldnt they have insight to areas you would only know IF you played the sport?

Im not trying to alienate any fans here, but the people on this forum who train, don't you guys notice when your talking to people who just watch MMA events have quite a small perspective on the sport?

your thoughts



depends. some street fighters are so good that they can wretsle, grapple, and box, my dad is an example, however he's old now, but in his prime, he'd be a good contender at 155. but that is the rare occasion, most i'd say no. training hard everyday is what makes 99.99% of champions. so yeah its mainly a fallacy.
Brownsfan222
5/7/07 6:44:51PM
Its like that in any sport. Before I started track I watched a few meets and had no idea what the guys were doing. Now I can watch the relay hand offs and know whats going on and no why they run they way they do.
ordean
5/16/07 6:48:32PM
Training helps to understand the fight game. You don't need to train to be a fan but it helps to really understand the fight and to predict winners.
MethodMan
5/21/07 9:58:36AM
Like I already said, fighting helps you understand a match and perhaps predict a fighter once the match has started, if one fighter is showing signs of fatigue or injury. But for predicting fights here on MMA playground I think a serious fan who has watched fortage of both fighters should be able to predict as well as a fighter or perhaps better if the fighter gets hit in the head a lot (Like me)
The-Don
5/15/08 12:17:07PM
( to help revive a dead thread.,... )

I have to say without training your not going to make it... Sure you may have some success like Tank, but lets be realistic.. in the early days when he had most of his success most of the guys were one style fighters and mostly stand up. so these guys would stand and bang with abbott and while he may not have been much for kicks he could take a hit and deliver a nasty one himself.. but with the success of guys like Royce Gracie... people realized that punching and kicking as not all and as people cross trained and truly started to mix thier styles as early MMA was a mixtures of fighters from different styles not what it is today which is fighters with mixed skill... ( did not realize that I bet most of you younger guys) People whith just basic brawling skills fell the the way side hence Tanks lack of recent success no matter how hard he tries...
Rush
5/15/08 12:51:40PM
No offence, but wasn't the thread about being able to appreciate watching an MMA event more if you had training experience?
fullerene
5/15/08 8:54:32PM
To me the thing that is most often missed by people who have not at least done live sparring in a combat sport is a realistic concept of what makes a good wrestling/boxing/MMA "athlete". There is a general impression that the world is filled with "natural athletes" who can perform at the highest level in any sport and it's just a matter of luck and money as to which one they choose to dominate. It's also believed that this can be measured in the typical NFL combine measures (40 time, vertical leap, bench press max) or, not having that handy, in looking at how "ripped" a guy is.

It's definitely an aid in any combat sport to have low fat vs. muscle and to have traditional speed and strength. But you'll also find that well-timed, straight punches beat faster looping punches and that a wrestler who benches 300 pounds will have the balance and angles to throw a bodybuilder who benches 400 around like a rag doll. It's that less visible athleticism which is missed by a lot of casual fans.
The-Don
5/16/08 12:35:15PM
yea it was.. I lost my train of thought... but it was still a decent observation... as for topic... Yea I think those who have any martial arts training can appreicate whats happening in a fight more...
Tizzy
11/21/08 9:13:39PM
Truely, anyone can compete at anytime BUT if you plan on being successful you have to train and you have to train hard. It is difficult when I watch MMA with buddies who have never trained and never competed in anything. They don't understand that, when you are watching a match, and there is one guy who is getting beat down it doesn't mean that he/ she isn't tough. It just means that one person is winning and one person is losing. That's all.

Toughness is something different than being a good fighter.

Oh, and I have been training for a long time and in my training time I was a bouncer for nightclubs for a good part of that time. I have seen countless times that being tough isn't enough to be successful in the ring. I have NEVER never seen where toughness beat out a trained mma fighter.
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