Tommy Speer - what does he add to the UFC? Part II

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moob
4/5/08 4:56:15AM
Some time ago, I posted a thread about everyone's favourite farm-boy, Mr Speer.

I recall a number of board members lambasting my opinions on the lad, that he will be a force to be reckoned with etc etc.

I was wondering what the general consensus was now, after he lighting fast submission lost to Danzig in the final of TUF, and he more recent 51 second destruction at the hands of Anthony Johnson, a fighter who has lost to a journeyman in the shape of Rich Clementi.

Don't get me wrong, Johnson is no slouch, be he's hardly what you'd call a 'top tier fighter'.

So I guess the same question as before, given Tommy's form thus far in the UFC - does he offer anything in particular - has he learned anything since his TUF experience - is he really training hard enough to develop, or is he spending too much time lifting bails of hay around the farm?
Mastodon2
4/5/08 6:44:29AM
He definitely needs to get on a decent team if he isn't with one already. His training on his farm will give him physical fitness but he isn't going to learn the ins and outs of MMA fighting on his own. That said, I hope a team will look past his two losses and see that its because he is just not on Danzigs level, even if Danzig is a natural LW, and and because he hasnt had proper training yet.
Aaronno9
4/5/08 8:01:07AM
I dont think much has changed since tuf tbh. Hes still just a block of raw potential, and hes still very young so hopefully he'll buck his ideas up and start training with a better team soon rathar than relying on his strength. Johnson was just a very bad match up for him. Hes just as strong and has devastating power in his hands. Alot of people seem to be expecting big things from this guy, and while im not sold yet i think hed give a good fight to anybody at WW. Yeah he got caught by clementi, but he put him on his arse before that and got caught in a sub, anybody can get caught like that.
DCRage
4/5/08 8:51:45AM
As I noted elsewhere, he needs to get out of UFC for now. Get an "open door release", go fight where he won't have so much pressure to perform and where he can get some more experience and improve, then come back to UFC at some point down the road. He's just not ready for UFC yet.
warglory
4/5/08 10:15:57AM

Posted by DCRage

As I noted elsewhere, he needs to get out of UFC for now. Get an "open door release", go fight where he won't have so much pressure to perform and where he can get some more experience and improve, then come back to UFC at some point down the road. He's just not ready for UFC yet.



MMA
4/5/08 10:30:14AM
I think he is too one-dimensional and you just can't be one-dimensional in this sport anymore. If he doesn't get you down, he really looks like a fish out of water. Danzig also exposed his weakness when he put him on his back and Johnson showed that Tommy is really bad a setting up his shots.
Twenty20Dollars
4/5/08 10:34:56AM
offers nothing, but i mean he is training with hughes
tylerlee123
4/5/08 10:45:55AM
I really thought that Speer would have been able to weather the storm and take him down but man Johnson is just too quick and he punches so hard, i think Speer with the proper training could be a force, but not yet
tberg420
4/5/08 11:40:27AM
I guess most people didn't know that Rumble is a decent wrestler. He was dominating Clementi and got into bad positioning and got subbed. Speer would be better off to go to another camp because it appears that the game has passed Hughes by. I think that a return to the WEC is in the future for Tommy Speer. Does anyone know if Tommy trains year round now or is he still tending to the farm more than fighting?
Jackelope
4/5/08 1:37:57PM
Well I'm sorry I missed the first part. I'd have supported you. He doesn't offer any fantastic dynamic besides his strength. Even his wrestling isn't that great. He's just strong as hell and tough as nails.
wolfman
4/5/08 3:36:43PM

Posted by moob

Some time ago, I posted a thread about everyone's favourite farm-boy, Mr Speer.

I recall a number of board members lambasting my opinions on the lad, that he will be a force to be reckoned with etc etc.

I was wondering what the general consensus was now, after he lighting fast submission lost to Danzig in the final of TUF, and he more recent 51 second destruction at the hands of Anthony Johnson, a fighter who has lost to a journeyman in the shape of Rich Clementi.

Don't get me wrong, Johnson is no slouch, be he's hardly what you'd call a 'top tier fighter'.

So I guess the same question as before, given Tommy's form thus far in the UFC - does he offer anything in particular - has he learned anything since his TUF experience - is he really training hard enough to develop, or is he spending too much time lifting bails of hay around the farm?



Yet, you still picked him to win. If you were so sure about him not being UFC level, then why did you even bother picking him?? I figured this fight could go either way and knew that Tommy was nothing special as well. I just knew he was tough as nails and figured he would be able to get Johnson down at some point. However, I was wrong and wish I'd have known that Johnson was training the whole time in Colorado and was with Chute Boxe. I am only pointing this out because you went out of your way to gloat about how you knew ahead a time that he wasn't ready for the UFC and then you go and pick him and have the arrogance to make yet another post about him. Therefore, I think you should not be blasting other people for saying he was the real deal, when in fact you went against your original thoughts and went and picked him.

EDIT: Also, I think you are not giving Rich enough credit. Yes, he isn't a top tier fighter. However, he is more than just a journeyman and I think he is starting to shine. In addition, Johnson took the fight on short notice with Rich and his cardio was affected greatly due to that and probably could have won that fight had he not gassed and put himself in a bad position. He is young and improving and if he improves his sub defense he will be a force to be reckoned with.
NatedawgThaM
4/5/08 5:33:09PM
He's still very young. He can still be great in the UFC, besides the Welterweight division is mostly dominant wrestlers/grapplers anyways minus Johnson,Alves, and Davis so he has a great shot against anybody as long as he takes him down first.

As far as improving goes, either Hughes needs to get Jeremy Horn over their to teach him submissions and submission defense or he needs to leave ASAP. Hughes is the absolute worst person to have train you if your already a fantastic wrestler because he can give you nothing.
moob
4/6/08 6:10:17AM

Posted by wolfman


Posted by moob

Some time ago, I posted a thread about everyone's favourite farm-boy, Mr Speer.

I recall a number of board members lambasting my opinions on the lad, that he will be a force to be reckoned with etc etc.

I was wondering what the general consensus was now, after he lighting fast submission lost to Danzig in the final of TUF, and he more recent 51 second destruction at the hands of Anthony Johnson, a fighter who has lost to a journeyman in the shape of Rich Clementi.

Don't get me wrong, Johnson is no slouch, be he's hardly what you'd call a 'top tier fighter'.

So I guess the same question as before, given Tommy's form thus far in the UFC - does he offer anything in particular - has he learned anything since his TUF experience - is he really training hard enough to develop, or is he spending too much time lifting bails of hay around the farm?



Yet, you still picked him to win. If you were so sure about him not being UFC level, then why did you even bother picking him?? I figured this fight could go either way and knew that Tommy was nothing special as well. I just knew he was tough as nails and figured he would be able to get Johnson down at some point. However, I was wrong and wish I'd have known that Johnson was training the whole time in Colorado and was with Chute Boxe. I am only pointing this out because you went out of your way to gloat about how you knew ahead a time that he wasn't ready for the UFC and then you go and pick him and have the arrogance to make yet another post about him. Therefore, I think you should not be blasting other people for saying he was the real deal, when in fact you went against your original thoughts and went and picked him.

EDIT: Also, I think you are not giving Rich enough credit. Yes, he isn't a top tier fighter. However, he is more than just a journeyman and I think he is starting to shine. In addition, Johnson took the fight on short notice with Rich and his cardio was affected greatly due to that and probably could have won that fight had he not gassed and put himself in a bad position. He is young and improving and if he improves his sub defense he will be a force to be reckoned with.



Indeed I did. Thanks for pointing that out.

Weird things happen in MMA, my picks don't always reflect who I genuinely think has the talent to win, which probably reflects my poor record too!

I don't rate the guy, never did - as I stated in my previous post, he is too one-dimensional, and he seems to keep proving me right.
emfleek
4/6/08 10:44:44PM
He provided a great highlight reel knockout...even though he was on the receiving end.
F--K_Luck_AuH2O
4/7/08 12:24:41AM
Although the Tuf Finale counts as an actual UFC match, it should be disregarded when determining somebodies true UFC record.

It seems like the shit end of the stick when Speer defeated three people on the show (all of whome are still in the UFC with wins) only to lose in the final and have that loss count against him.

As far as I'm concerned Speer is 0-1 in the UFC with his lost to speer, not 0-2.

Am I incinuating that the lost should not count on hsi record...no. But when determining if some body is UFC material you discount his finale loss. For instant Doug Evans is 0-2 in the UFC, as is Ryan Jenson...both have been released...Speer is technically 0-2 but in terms of excessing his UFC status he is 0-1.
cowcatcher
4/7/08 12:42:23AM

Posted by F--K_Luck_AuH2O

Although the Tuf Finale counts as an actual UFC match, it should be disregarded when determining somebodies true UFC record.

It seems like the shit end of the stick when Speer defeated three people on the show (all of whome are still in the UFC with wins) only to lose in the final and have that loss count against him.

As far as I'm concerned Speer is 0-1 in the UFC with his lost to speer, not 0-2.

Am I incinuating that the lost should not count on hsi record...no. But when determining if some body is UFC material you discount his finale loss. For instant Doug Evans is 0-2 in the UFC, as is Ryan Jenson...both have been released...Speer is technically 0-2 but in terms of excessing his UFC status he is 0-1.



i completely disagree, should forrests win over bonnar not count????? that was maybe the defining moment in MMAs rise towards mainstream in the USA and was most definately count as a win for griffin and a loss for bonnar(although its a shame there had to be a loser). a ufc fight that is sanctioned by the state athletic commision goes into the books period. and speer offers a guy that the fans and viewers of TUF know more than anything, except of course what fleek mentioned, a HL reel KO.
coldchillin
4/7/08 1:31:14AM
The UFC should rematch Speer and George Sotiropoulos to see if it was just the eye-poke that enabled him to get that win or if he's really that good.
Svartorm
4/7/08 3:11:51AM
The eye poke WAS on the same side as the punch, so I thought the same thing during the show. Tommy has a really powerful, well-developed jab cross, but thats about the extent of his stand-up. Johnson was a bad match for him because his reflexes are throught the roof, and Speers isn't. The 7 inch reach advantage probably didn't help either.

Someone hit the nail on the head earlier. He needs to stop training with Hughes. All he has is wrestling, so why train more? He should get with AKA, ATT or Jacksons and work on rounding himself out.
F--K_Luck_AuH2O
4/7/08 3:57:46AM

Posted by cowcatcher
i completely disagree, should forrests win over bonnar not count????? that was maybe the defining moment in MMAs rise towards mainstream in the USA and was most definately count as a win for griffin and a loss for bonnar(although its a shame there had to be a loser). a ufc fight that is sanctioned by the state athletic commision goes into the books period. and speer offers a guy that the fans and viewers of TUF know more than anything, except of course what fleek mentioned, a HL reel KO.



You misunderstood my point.

I did not mean that it doesn't count as a win or loss on their record. I meant that when the powers that be are looking to release a fighter based on their records, or people are (like in this post) judging the quality of a fighter based on their UFC records, their finale appearance should not count.

MFOTHER
4/7/08 9:37:50AM
Spears isnt ready for tip competition. Everyone saw him and thought he would be a second hughes. He isnt. He is a good wrestler, but the division is full of em.

and i believe in a rematch george would crush him. I was shocked he didnt the first time, and george has really continued to advance, which i am not seeing from spears.........

but yes like an asshole i picked him. Just didnt know enough about his competition
JWils
4/7/08 12:28:46PM

Posted by Svartorm

The eye poke WAS on the same side as the punch, so I thought the same thing during the show. Tommy has a really powerful, well-developed jab cross, but thats about the extent of his stand-up. Johnson was a bad match for him because his reflexes are throught the roof, and Speers isn't. The 7 inch reach advantage probably didn't help either.

Someone hit the nail on the head earlier. He needs to stop training with Hughes. All he has is wrestling, so why train more? He should get with AKA, ATT or Jacksons and work on rounding himself out.



I think that is a valid point about Speer not being able to develop his stand up skills to a world class level training under Hughes.

Hughes' stand up never really improved as much as his submission game so it probably should be reasonable to assume that if someone is training under him, the stand up will fall behind the wrestling and the submission game.

Speer is a young guy, so it's to early to tell how good he can become. But, his confidence has to be shot right now.

btw, is it just me or is Anthony Johnson the biggest 170 pounder you've ever seen? He made Speer look small and Speer is considered a big welterweight.
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