Title contention: who should and will fight for a title?

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Loot613
8/11/08 10:24:31PM
Alot of speculation has been going around lately about #1 contenders, champions and who should fight who. I've set up some questions that I will answer myself after a few have weighed in on the subject. I will concentrate on UFC. Please rank as you see fit and add fighters you think are relevant to the discussion, btw I will put confirmed fighters who will fight for titles down too just for levity.

UFC

Light Weight? (Florian, Sherk, T. Griffin, Guida)
Welter Weight? (D. Sanchez, T. Alves, KOS, Swick)
Middle Weight? (D. Maia, D. Henderson, Okami, Cote)
Light Heavy Weight (Rampage, Liddel, W. Silva, Machida, Shogun, T. Silva)
Heavy Weight (Lesnar, Mir, Kongo, Valasquez, Werdum)

#1 Do you think champions should fight champions (ie. GSP vs Penn)

#2 Do you beleive in gatekeepers? guys that should not fight for the title but should have to be beaten for a shot. (ie. Rich Franklin, K. Parisyan)

#3 Who should move up or down in weight class?
Khaos
8/11/08 10:46:48PM

Posted by Loot613

Heavy Weight (Lesnar, Mir, Kongo)





No way is Kongo close to a f**king title shot, Cain Velasquez is closer to a title shot the Cheick Kongo, who's on a 1 fight winning streak(over a virtual no name).
Mchubb316
8/11/08 10:48:10PM
I think Florian has some impressive wins to justify a title shot. I think Sherk needs to win a couple fights to get another shot. If Alves beats Sanchez, he will most likely get a title shot. Machida is next in line for a title shot at LHW, I think he will beat T. Silva, and fight Griffin. Mir gets his shot in December, and it would not suprise me if they make the Kongo vs Lesnar a title contender fight. As far as having title holders fight one another, I think as long as they can make weight, and the fight makes sense, I have no problem. BJ vs GSP's first fight was a good one, and a second fight makes sense to me.
Loot613
8/11/08 10:54:08PM
Khoas, that's why i'm asking for your guys opinions, don't lash out this is a chill discussion.
Gipper
8/11/08 10:54:09PM
looks pretty good. i'd add shogun and t.silva at lhw, swick and kos at ww and clay guida to lw.
Loot613
8/11/08 11:00:42PM
I've edited my post to reflect suggestions, anyone else? and how about the gatekeeper subject and who should move up or down?
mk1630
8/11/08 11:43:55PM
Clay definately needs at least 3 solid wins before he gets a shot. I think after Mir, Werdum should get a shot. If Chuck wins i would guess he would get the next shot, then the winner of T. Silva/ Machida. In WW, Alves/ Sanchez winner should get it after GSP fights BJ for the belt. MW it should be Okami after Cote, but there are a few guys that are one fight off from being close to a shot. At LW, it should be Kenny, and im not too sure who deserves one after that.
skatenate
8/12/08 12:16:45AM
#1 contenders

LW: Florian
WW: D. Sanchez (only just)
MW: Okami
LHW: W. Silva/Machida
HW: Mir (id say lesnar will be right behind him, and will get the next chance)

a) i agree, as long as a) they both make weight and b) it makes sense, they are the best in the divisions, they should go for it.

b) i think gatekeepers are there, not by there choice, but maybe by danas choice. the main one that comes to my mind is Karo Parisyan.

c) anderson silva should go to 205 if he is successfull against Okami, that would be a good move for him, and would be a great challenge for him
RNC
8/12/08 12:17:22AM

Posted by Loot613

Alot of speculation has been going around lately about #1 contenders, champions and who should fight who. I've set up some questions that I will answer myself after a few have weighed in on the subject. I will concentrate on UFC. Please rank as you see fit and add fighters you think are relevant to the discussion, btw I will put confirmed fighters who will fight for titles down too just for levity.

UFC

Light Weight? (Florian, Sherk, T. Griffin, Guida)
Welter Weight? (D. Sanchez, T. Alves, KOS, Swick)
Middle Weight? (D. Maia, D. Henderson, Okami, Cote)
Light Heavy Weight (Rampage, Liddel, W. Silva, Machida, Shogun, T. Silva)
Heavy Weight (Lesnar, Mir, Kongo, C.Valasquez)

#1 Do you think champions should fight champions (ie. GSP vs Penn)

#2 Do you beleive in gatekeepers? guys that should not fight for the title but should have to be beaten for a shot. (ie. Rich Franklin, K. Parisyan)

#3 Who should move up or down in weight class?



Excluding fights for the title already set to take place

LW:
#1 - Florian
#2 - Tyson (if he beats Sherk)

WW:
#1 - Winner of Alves/Sanchez
#2 - Koscheck (with one more win)

MW:
#1 - Okami
#2 - Winner of Leben/Bisping

LHW:
#1 - Lyoto Machida (if he wins against Thiago)
#2 - Chuck Liddell (if he wins against Rashad)
* In the event that Lyoto loses, Chuck moves up, Thiago takes Chucks spot

HW:
#1 - Werdum
#2 - Cain Velasquez


First, Champions should fight champions, for many reasons. First, when the champ cleans their weight class out, like Anderson Silva at MW or soon to be GSP at WW, what other choice do they have to change divisions and fight the best. They need competition. Then the whole #1 P4P fighter ranking comes into play. It can prove once and for all who the better fighter is. If both fighters can make weight then I think its great.

Second, there will always be gate keepers, whether you want them or not. For instance, Tyson Griffin vs Sean Sherk. If Griffin beats sherk, he will be coming off of 5 straight wins, all against tough opponents. He clearly deserves a shot. On the other hand, if Sherk wins, he does not deserve a title shot. His last fight was a loss against the champ, and this would be his first win. He needs a few more victories before he is ready. So yes, there will always be gate keepers.

Lastly, on moving up and down in weight classes. The only fighter I see really benefiting from changing weight classes would be GSP. GSP should clear out the WW division with a few more fights and move up to fight Anderson Silva for the MW title. GSP is a huge 170 and could easily make 185. I think that he would have the best shot at beating Anderson. GSP would be able to take him down at will, and if Hendo can GNP Anderson, GSP certainly can. He is also skilled in JJ, so I don't see him getting submitted by Silva. If GSP could manage to keep the fight on the ground, he certainly could grind out a victory. Other than that, Hendo should stay at 185, he has the best shot at the belt there and Vera should stick to 205 and never even think about going back to HW.
Pskinner_mma314
8/12/08 1:54:46AM
Yes champions should fight champions just because of the p4p fact.

I hate that there will always be gatekeepers, but its a well known fact that they will always be there. I see Rich Franklin move up to LHW and I kinda feel sorry for him. He has proven that he can beat everybody at MW except Silva. Now as soon as he trys to avoid being a gatekeeper, Silva makes his move up to LHW as well, so he is kinda screwed at this point if Silva ever wins the LHW title.

Anyone else think of that.
RNC
8/12/08 2:19:03AM

Posted by Pskinner_mma314

Yes champions should fight champions just because of the p4p fact.

I hate that there will always be gatekeepers, but its a well known fact that they will always be there. I see Rich Franklin move up to LHW and I kinda feel sorry for him. He has proven that he can beat everybody at MW except Silva. Now as soon as he trys to avoid being a gatekeeper, Silva makes his move up to LHW as well, so he is kinda screwed at this point if Silva ever wins the LHW title.

Anyone else think of that.



The only reason Anderson doesn't want to fight at 205 is because of Lyoto. But if Lyoto gets a title shot and loses, I could see Anderson moving up to 205 and becoming champion. Depending on who gets a shot first, Lyoto could be fighting Forrest or maybe even possibly Liddell.
loller90278
8/12/08 4:36:11AM
if karo wins his next shot, i say he gets his title shot just so he can stop talking about it. we'll see a nice grinding match between him and gsp
iceliddell240
8/12/08 11:58:43AM
lw-give guillard time and he might get the lw title but i truly believe bj will b the champ in both divisions leavin melvin and florian as gate keepers

ww- Penn, alves/ kos are the best tests, gsp will want a rematch

mw-anderson silva will own that dicision for a while but his next opponents after cte will probably b okami, henderson, and who knows...mayb bisping

lhw-chucks gonna get a shot, his first defense after beatin griffin should be either lyoto or shogun

hw-nog will prob beat mir but its close, they both submission guys, randy will come back and be champ(i guartentee it)...cain velasquez and shane carwin will probably have title shots in the future
Aether
8/12/08 3:34:09PM
well I think after the last couple of events pretty much all of the contenders are obvious so I'll just answer the questions.

1. Yes, as long as they either defend their current title regularly or vacate the title and stay in their new weight class so an interim champ can be crowned.

2. A gatekeeper is not a position that people have assigned to them by the UFC. Gatekeepers create themselves by hitting a certain skill level and being unable to improve beyond that level. It isn't that they aren't allowed to have title shots, it's that they can't EARN title shots because they aren't able to break the skill barrier required to beat top level fighters. Rich Franklin can't possibly be considered a gatekeeper since no one can beat him other than Anderson. (he could become a gatekeeper at 205 though)

A gatekeeper is just a guy who can't make the jump from good to great. They sit around the upper tier of B level fighters and the lower tier of A level fighters.

3. I'd like to see Anderson and BJ move up in weight, I don't see anyone in their divisions beating them.
Aether
8/12/08 3:40:01PM
rich franklin is not a gatekeeper guys... I think you're misunderstanding the term. Rich franklin is just a #1 contender in a division ruled by a dominant fighter. If Rich is a gatekeeper at 185 the gates have been closed for a long ass time.
pv3Hpv3p
8/12/08 3:52:44PM
HW...

Werdum... And then I guess Valasquez because I can't think of anyone else...

LHW...

Machida is clearly the #1 contender for me, but I think that the winner of Chuck / Rashad gets the nod... And then Lyoto as long as he keeps winning.

MW...

I guess Okami would be after Cote... But I think Bisbing will be pushed ahead if he gets a solid win under his belt... I'd actually like to see him fight the winner of Kampmann / Marquardt

WW...

Winner of Thiago Alves / Diego Sanchez should be next in line... Then maybe even Yoshida if he gets past Karo... I guess I really don't want to see Kos / GSP II, that is if GSP can beat BJ again...

LW...

I could see the winner of Griffen / Sherk getting a shot... But there seems to be a lot of good fighters in the div and anyone of them could make a run for it with a couple solid wins...

champion vs champion does not bother me, unless it interferes with title defenses down the line somewhere... I don't want a TUF thing to happen, and have title fights put on hold

It was stated before... Gatekeepers change with time... For example, Anderson's Rich Franklin's cryptonite... but he may fare much better against the likes of Cote... So I guess gatekeepers change with the champions...

I'd like to see Wilson Gouveia move down to MW... Gamburyan move to 145... Rashad move to MW... Chuck move to HW... and Fedor down at 205
Loot613
8/13/08 3:08:46AM
Rich Franklin is a gate keeper, he's guarding the gate and he's defending it well. But sometimes somone will jump over the gate (ie Dan Henderson) so that Anderson will fight someone to defend the title. However if someone beat Rich Franklin at MW he would get an immediate title shot. Good for Rich for going the LHW but he's gonna have hell to pay if he ever has to fight Wanderlei/Liddel/Rampage.

I think we had a good discussion, one other thing i'd like to add is I think the UFC should do belt holder vs. belt holder every year for their new years eve show and call it something special something like. BATTLE OF WARRIORS 1 and have the biggest card of the year not only with the title holders fighting but some unique big name catch fights.

GSP vs. BJ
Anderson Silva vs. Liddel (either LHW or catch wieght)
Urijah Faber vs. Kenflo
Nate Diaz vs. Karo Parisyan

getting guys that wouldn't normally fight but could meet somewhere in between would be awesome, once a year for a super card. MMA's superbowl if you will
Aether
8/13/08 5:45:52AM
let me quote back to you YOUR definition of a gatekeeper:

"guys that should not fight for the title but should have to be beaten for a shot. "

Now explain to me how Rich Franklin fits that description. He's a former champion and a #1 contender, no one in the division has beaten him other than anderson and he's had NUMEROUS title shots.

People who are called gate keepers are guys who are good, better than the majority of the division but are just shy of making the top tier, thus being able to beat them puts you in the upper tier. They guard the gates to the upper echelons of the division. Franklin dominated his division until a better fighter came in and started dominating. The way that you are using the word gatekeeper is interchangeable with the term "contender" and that isn't what a gatekeeper is.

You can't call a guy who has been consistently ranked top3 in the world for his weightclass for like 3 years a gatekeeper, it makes no sense. Guys like Travis Lutter and Patrick Cote are Gatekeepers, not Rich Franklin. By your logic no one should ever fight anderson for his title since no one can beat franklin.

You're saying he's a gatekeeper just because if someone beats them they get a titleshot... that's not a gatekeeper that's a contender. If anyone beats basically any of the top5 guys in a division they get a titleshot... because they beat a title contender and that elevates you to title contention. Gatekeeper and contender are not interchangeable, they are different things.
Loot613
8/13/08 9:16:27AM
You must have missed my latest post. Sure Franklin has beaten everyone but Anderson but if someone came in at MW beat Franklin they'd get a shot. On the other hand Rich Franklin is all out of title shots at MW until Anderson is no longer champion. He's sort of a very good gatekeeper, I think Franklin is over-rated and will be exposed when he goes to LHW, chew on that.
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