Time for a new weight class?

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hodge
11/16/08 12:30:52PM
Just wondering what whats your opinion on a new weight class to fill the massive difference in the heavyweight division. I was thinking something along the lines of a 206-235 division the only problem i can see with this idea is the obvious lack of talent the 236-265 division would have.
higdon10
11/16/08 12:34:02PM
No. A guy like Lesnar has a definitive size advantage on the majority of the divison, but its nothing that can't be overcame. And the lack depth in the divisions is another downfall.
MALICE
11/16/08 12:44:59PM
Never going to happen. It is a wide stretch so the smaller HW's are at a size disadvantage, but that is nobodies fault. Randy for instance was only 220 lbs. Brock was somewhere around 280, but he made the 265 lb limit so he qualified to fight. Randy can make LHW. I think that is his Weightclass. The only reason he left is because Chuck had his number. Chuck is out of the picture now so why not drop back down. I think he would do very well at LHW, and he would have a size advantage, instead of a size disadvantage.
seanfu
11/16/08 1:21:17PM
I keep telling people that HW needs to be 195- 240 and 240-up

Most of the LHW are almost true HWs to begin with, which is why the HW division starting at 205 is lacking in depth.

The only HW range is 230 and up. How much talent is 230 and up?

Look at the HW division, Fedor, Arlovski, Couture, Nogueira any of these guys could be LHWs. (I say that because of Nogueiras frame.)

They need a Cruiserweight for LHW that are heavier and lighter HS's,and HW which would have SHW included.

nickcuc547
11/16/08 1:23:44PM
ridiculous, every other weight class calls for guys to cut weight to make weight, nobody hadd a problem with it until now. brock is big, and he is good and he is a legitimate heavyweight. the weight classes are fine.
gartface
11/16/08 1:25:12PM

Posted by nickcuc547

ridiculous, every other weight class calls for guys to cut weight to make weight, nobody hadd a problem with it until now. brock is big, and he is good and he is a legitimate heavyweight. the weight classes are fine.

Just Sour Grapes man.
Pitbull09
11/16/08 2:24:51PM
Right now the HW's are the least developed division and its not a surprise. Its a division where you can get away with being a giant without experience and/or skill (Sylvia, Lesnar) but that doesnt mean we should split it any time soon.

Right now its hard to list 20 top level HWs when every other division would be easy. Spliting it would pretty much kill any progress that the division has seen.

Maybe ten years down the road we will have 205-225 and 225+ divisions but for now there isnt enough talent to fill both spots.
Jackelope
11/16/08 2:29:17PM
I have no doubt in my mind that in the future there will be a cruiserweight class added to MMA. It's just that right now there's not enough of a talent pool at HW to warrant its creation.

It happened in boxing, and it will happen in MMA.

People can call sour grapes all day long but it's not sour grapes. History repeats itself. There is no other weight class that fighters have to overcome a 60 lb weight range. Debate with me all day long and I will show the facts and history of how the cruiser weight class was developed in boxing to overcome this challenge.

Hell, don't even bother debating with me- just go look it up yourself.
nickcuc547
11/16/08 3:36:20PM
it's absolutely sour grapes, nobody ever complained about weight classes until today and if randy this discussion would not be going on. nobody cared that sylvia is huge and has to cut weight or gan mcgee, everybody is just pissed because brock got a title shot so soon and beat the most popular fighter of all time, if that's not sour grapes than i don't know what is.
cmill21
11/16/08 3:43:25PM

Posted by nickcuc547

it's absolutely sour grapes, nobody ever complained about weight classes until today and if randy this discussion would not be going on. nobody cared that sylvia is huge and has to cut weight or gan mcgee, everybody is just pissed because brock got a title shot so soon and beat the most popular fighter of all time, if that's not sour grapes than i don't know what is.



I don't like Randy and have never felt he was in the running for all time great HW's but I think they should have a 155, 170, 195, 225, and 226+. I think the new light HW div would just become better with the addition of the small HW's and less cutting for the big LHW's. The small LHW's could go to the MW div giving that div much needed fighters.
ncordless
11/16/08 3:50:02PM
No. There is not enough depth at HW.

Also, until recently it was pretty much common knowledge that the best HW were all around 225-250... anything bigger was seen as a disadvantage. Now that a heavier fighter has become champ, people see the weight as an advantage bar-none.
AchillesHeel
11/16/08 7:27:14PM

Posted by nickcuc547

it's absolutely sour grapes, nobody ever complained about weight classes until today[...]


That's not true.
Jackelope
11/16/08 9:13:53PM

Posted by AchillesHeel


Posted by nickcuc547

it's absolutely sour grapes, nobody ever complained about weight classes until today[...]


That's not true.



Thanks for saving me the trouble If I had the time I would go back and find 5 more threads like this one.

My three main rants about MMA are

#1 - The use of steroid being rampant, but the general public being grossly naive

#2- The need for a cruiserweight division

#3- The need for "effort to finish" to be a judging criteria

So call sour grapes all you want, but go back in the forums and research and you'll see that it's never been about sour grapes.
jae_1833
11/17/08 1:35:14AM
I've always thought that HW should be up to 250lbs, the only problem would be the 250 lbs and up class (call it super HW) would have an incredible lack of talent to pull from!
AchillesHeel
11/17/08 9:40:10AM

Posted by jae_1833

I've always thought that HW should be up to 250lbs, the only problem would be the 250 lbs and up class (call it super HW) would have an incredible lack of talent to pull from!


I agree that SHW isn't a realistic option, which is why a Cruiserweight division is a better solution. Many Light-Heavyweights could fight at Cruiserweight, as well as the smaller Heavyweights. 206 to 225 lbs would be my (somewhat-arbitrary) opinion.

If the UFC opened a Cruiserweight division tomorrow, this is what it would look like, imo:

Randy Couture
Brandon Vera
Keith Jardine
Jon Jones
- I would pair these four off to determine the first title fight. Couture-Vera and Jardine-Jones.

Jake O'Brien
Eddie Sanchez
Stephan Bonnar
Christian Wellisch
Justin McCully
Carmelo Marrero
James Irvin
Krzysztof Soszynski
...and the loser of Rampage-Wanderlei III

Non-UFC fighters who could fight at Cruiserweight (and who might be enticed to) are Vladimir Matyushenko, Antonio Rogerio Nogueira, and Mirko Filipovic.

So if Randy retires, and if you those non-UFC fighters don't want to join, and if Vera, Jardine, Soszynski, Rampage and Silva wanted to remain in the more prestigious LHW division, a Cruiserweight division would look a little thin. But it's inevitable that an "expansion team" takes a few years to fill out its roster, in any sport. History suggests that the UFC doesn't create a new division unless the talent for it is already on the roster, but that doesn't mean they couldn't do it this way. It just means they probably won't.
stock
11/17/08 10:23:45AM

Posted by ncordless

No. There is not enough depth at HW.

Also, until recently it was pretty much common knowledge that the best HW were all around 225-250... anything bigger was seen as a disadvantage. Now that a heavier fighter has become champ, people see the weight as an advantage bar-none.



Absolutely.

emfleek
11/17/08 10:28:10AM
Absolutely not. Leave everything the way it is.

The standard has already been set. Brock is just the exception to that standard. He'll lose at some point. They always do.
Aaronno9
11/17/08 11:47:00AM
I definatly think so. I mean, you've only got like 10-15 pounds between most of the divisions, then you got Lesnar fighting Couture weights 40 pounds or so more. Its just a pitty about the lack of talent that could fill up that upper half of the division. It would mean guys wouldnt pile on lots or weight just to get a size advantage though which would be nice. I just really think 60 pounds is way to big of a margin between lhw and shw.
jae_1833
11/17/08 1:41:58PM

Posted by AchillesHeel


Posted by jae_1833

I've always thought that HW should be up to 250lbs, the only problem would be the 250 lbs and up class (call it super HW) would have an incredible lack of talent to pull from!


I agree that SHW isn't a realistic option, which is why a Cruiserweight division is a better solution. Many Light-Heavyweights could fight at Cruiserweight, as well as the smaller Heavyweights. 206 to 225 lbs would be my (somewhat-arbitrary) opinion.

If the UFC opened a Cruiserweight division tomorrow, this is what it would look like, imo:

Randy Couture
Brandon Vera
Keith Jardine
Jon Jones
- I would pair these four off to determine the first title fight. Couture-Vera and Jardine-Jones.

Jake O'Brien
Eddie Sanchez
Stephan Bonnar
Christian Wellisch
Justin McCully
Carmelo Marrero
James Irvin
Krzysztof Soszynski
...and the loser of Rampage-Wanderlei III

Non-UFC fighters who could fight at Cruiserweight (and who might be enticed to) are Vladimir Matyushenko, Antonio Rogerio Nogueira, and Mirko Filipovic.

So if Randy retires, and if you those non-UFC fighters don't want to join, and if Vera, Jardine, Soszynski, Rampage and Silva wanted to remain in the more prestigious LHW division, a Cruiserweight division would look a little thin. But it's inevitable that an "expansion team" takes a few years to fill out its roster, in any sport. History suggests that the UFC doesn't create a new division unless the talent for it is already on the roster, but that doesn't mean they couldn't do it this way. It just means they probably won't.



You've convinced me sir, maybe not on the guys who will fight in the class, but in the idea of a cruiserweight div. The thing is that every fighter is going to max out their potential as much as possible. That means that they will be trying to weigh 240 and cut for the cruiserweight matches IMO.
gsquat
11/17/08 1:47:49PM
No, you'll just see a new-look heavyweight class. Expect to no longer see too many hw's 230 or even 240 and below.
hodge
11/17/08 2:21:47PM
I dont understand why people are raving on about sour grapes i was just asking the question. I just think that a 60lb gap in a weight class seems a bit extreme IMO and is clearly the reason that LHW has the deepest talent pool.
mikevolz
11/17/08 2:33:41PM
its like complaining that GSP will have a weight advantage against bj. never mind that couture is MOVING UP IN WEIGHT.
seanfu
11/17/08 4:27:52PM
Gonzaga is a meant Brazilian tank of a natural HW, he would be absolutely dwarfed by Lesnar. I'm saying readjust the divisions. If you have a 195-215 to 20 division then you have huge LHW and small HW. 215 to 20 and up is still fine.
Those guys are all natural HWs. Randy would've still been able to fight at HW obviously.

But a guy like Arlovski could cut 5 to 10 pounds and not get raped by someone like Lesnar. The gap from 185 to 205 could also be shortened.

In 5 or so years they're gonna need to do something like that.
cmill21
11/17/08 6:50:47PM

Posted by seanfu

Gonzaga is a meant Brazilian tank of a natural HW, he would be absolutely dwarfed by Lesnar. I'm saying readjust the divisions. If you have a 195-215 to 20 division then you have huge LHW and small HW. 215 to 20 and up is still fine.
Those guys are all natural HWs. Randy would've still been able to fight at HW obviously.

But a guy like Arlovski could cut 5 to 10 pounds and not get raped by someone like Lesnar. The gap from 185 to 205 could also be shortened.

In 5 or so years they're gonna need to do something like that.




AA could cut 5 to 10 to get where? 230?
bls1919
11/17/08 9:40:39PM
If anything is added to the weight classes of the UFC it should be bantam/superlightweight. A 145 lb division. Get guys like Uriaja Faber and Torres, Lenard Garcia from WEC. And a couple of good guys from the UFC. Florian for one. Frankie Edgar could easily make 145. These are just a couple of top guys who could make a very exciting division for the UFC. And a very talent rich one at that.
Jackelope
11/17/08 10:11:37PM
I'm honestly completely blown away by the amount of people who are against a cruiserweight division being set up.

Now, even I admit that right now the HW pool (which would then be fighters above 235) is a little shallow to implement it right now, but I think in the future it will fill up.

For 235+ let's take a look at the available options right now-

Noguiera
Werdum
Gonzaga
Mir
Lesnar
Kongo
AA (Potentially, although he might cut down to 235 or under)
Carwin
Cain Velasquez

and then you've got the new cruiserweights- most of the names have been mentioned already so I'm not going to bother going back and re-doing it.

Basically the main thing that confuses me is how anyone can possibly overlook the fact that NO OTHER WEIGHT CLASS has to overcome a 60 lb. range for their fights. The closest is MW-LHW which is 19 lbs. Not even 1/3 of the range.

As more fighters get involved I guarantee you - just like boxing did it - MMA will do it. State athletic commissions will not allow huge fighters like Brock when they have years of MMA experience to fight similarly experienced guys who are 50 lbs. lighter. They simply won't do it. It is unhealthy for the fighters and it steals the very essence of fair competition. (as far as athletic commissions view it) I'm telling you- research the cruiserweight division in boxing and then you'll see. These are all the reasons why it was created in boxing.
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