Thoughts on the WW division. . .

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ncordless
3/4/11 2:29:35PM
In the past week, instead of the clarity that Penn/Fitch, Kampmann/Sanchez, and the ill-fated Condit/Lytle was supposed to instill in the division, we have a jumbled mess. Add to that the rumors of GSP moving up to 185lb. if he wins against Shields, and there seems to be a cluster@#$% at WW.

Diego v Fitch or Penn seems the most likely title eliminator/championship match at this point. But Diego has fought both of them and lost within the last few years, so it seems like they would be a little counterproductive. Maybe a Diego/Condit fight is in order? That's a possibility. But are Diego and Condit really the best, most deserving guys out there right now?


If GSP wins and then moves up temporarily or permanently, I'd love to see them set up a "tourney" with Diego, Kampmann, Fitch, BJ, Condit, Alves, Koschek, and Shields. The schedules should work, and it would be one of if not the best tourney fields. They wouldn't even have to call it a tourney, just match them up in a way that it is.

However, I doubt that happens. But I really have no idea what will!

Give me some thoughts and predictions on the WW division.
Franklinfan47
3/4/11 2:47:05PM
If GSP vacates, ideally it would be a tournament because that would be awesome. But realistically, I see it being:

BJ- Biggest draw (no pun intended) they have at ww besides GSP.
vs
Shields- They just payed a pretty penny to get him in the ufc.

I cant see them giving it to Fitch, and it seems too early for Alves, Diego, Koschek, etc.
emfleek
3/4/11 3:00:16PM

Posted by Franklinfan47

If GSP vacates, ideally it would be a tournament because that would be awesome. But realistically, I see it being:

BJ- Biggest draw (no pun intended) they have at ww besides GSP.
vs
Shields- They just payed a pretty penny to get him in the ufc.



There's no way they could ever justify Shields (coming off a loss more than likely) against BJ (coming off a draw) for a vacant title.

I say if GSP vacates, the title remains vacant until things sort out.

I, too, would like to see a tournament of sorts with either the Top 4 or the Top 8 in the division. Using 8 guys may take a while, though, since the eventual winner would have to fight 3 times. It would likely take a year minimum.
State_Champ
3/4/11 3:09:08PM
Thoughts:

I hope GSP doesn't vacate and instead rules the WW as long as he can.
Hendo67
3/4/11 4:53:05PM

Posted by State_Champ

Thoughts:

I hope GSP doesn't vacate and instead rules the WW as long as he can.


I hope he does, i don't want to see him flutter between 185/170 and fight once a year.

I'd rather GSP vacate, leaving the WW division the best in the world, than fight the same cycle of 3 fighters over and over and over again.
tmas
3/4/11 4:58:32PM
Penn/Fitch 4 the title, and a tourny for #1 contender.
Kpro
3/4/11 5:03:50PM
Is it now too late for GSP to decide to go the Canadian Olympic Wrestling Team route? It seems like he'd have to have already completely re-adjusted his training by this point, but is the possibility still there that he'd go do that right after the Shields fight?

I know we don't want to see him leave the sport for 2 years but I think he'd rather do that than face Anderson. But I don't know the Olympic training schedule so maybe he already missed that window.

As far as GSP vs. Anderson, I think he'd need a solid year from the end of the Shields fight to being the size to face Anderson. I don't even think he would want to do it by Super Bowl weekend 2012. He wouldn't go in unprepared and 15 pounds of muscle and learning to utilize his abilities at his new division wouldn't be something he would rush <---no pun intended.

Assuming he does leave the division after the Shields fight, I think a tourney would be the best way to go. That would create extra buzz to normal WW contests knowing the winner moves on.

EDIT: No way I could pass up a Fitch/BJ 5 rounder for the title though and then a 4 man tourney to determine the next contender.
ncordless
3/4/11 5:26:31PM

Posted by Kpro

Is it now too late for GSP to decide to go the Canadian Olympic Wrestling Team route? It seems like he'd have to have already completely re-adjusted his training by this point, but is the possibility still there that he'd go do that right after the Shields fight?

I know we don't want to see him leave the sport for 2 years but I think he'd rather do that than face Anderson. But I don't know the Olympic training schedule so maybe he already missed that window.

As far as GSP vs. Anderson, I think he'd need a solid year from the end of the Shields fight to being the size to face Anderson. I don't even think he would want to do it by Super Bowl weekend 2012. He wouldn't go in unprepared and 15 pounds of muscle and learning to utilize his abilities at his new division wouldn't be something he would rush <---no pun intended.

Assuming he does leave the division after the Shields fight, I think a tourney would be the best way to go. That would create extra buzz to normal WW contests knowing the winner moves on.

EDIT: No way I could pass up a Fitch/BJ 5 rounder for the title though and then a 4 man tourney to determine the next contender.



There has been a lot of speculation that GSP/Anderson happens on Dec. 31st. Whether GSP is ok with that I agree is questionable. It does seem like the kind of thing that the UFC would want on New Years though.

I have not heard anything about GSP's olympic dreams in a while. I am assuming that is not going to happen because there is absolutely no money in it for him, his chances of making the team are low, and his chances of doing well at the olympics is slim to none.


A lot of people seem interested in the tournament idea. How would you all build a 4 or 8 man bracket?
Kpro
3/4/11 5:44:09PM
To make it easier to think of a tourney; this is a solid idea of the UFC WW landscape:

COMING OFF OF WIN OR DRAW
Jon Fitch
BJ Penn
Carlos Condit
Diego Sanchez
Thiago Alves
Dong Hyun Kim
Mike Pyle
Jake Ellenberger
Ricardo Almeida
Mike Pierce
Rick Story
Paulo Thiago
Brian Foster
Dennis Halman
Daniel Roberts

COMINIG OFF OF LOSS
Jake Shields
Josh Koscheck
Martin Kampmann
Dan Hardy
John Hathaway
Nate Diaz
Matt Hughes
Matt Serra
Chris Lytle
Kpro
3/4/11 5:52:47PM
This is assuming Shields loses which I don't think is a lock.

I'd say for a 4 man tourney:
Fitch vs. Penn
Shields vs. Koscheck

with Condit vs. Alves as an alternate bout.

It'd be interesting to see if Fitch and Koscheck won since they don't want to fight each other but also neither would be the one to defer to the alternate bout winner when it came to a title match.

Also, I'd like the entire tourney to be 5 rounders but White has already voiced his opinion on not wanting #1 contenders matches to be 5 rounders so I doubt he'd waver on his strong opinion against it in a tourney format.
ncordless
3/4/11 5:53:16PM

Posted by Kpro

To make it easier to think of a tourney; this is a solid idea of the UFC WW landscape:

COMING OFF OF WIN OR DRAW
Jake Shields
Jon Fitch
BJ Penn
Carlos Condit
Diego Sanchez
Dong Hyun Kim
Mike Pyle
Jake Ellenberger
Ricardo Almeida
Mike Pierce
Rick Story
Paulo Thiago
Brian Foster
Dennis Halman
Daniel Roberts

COMINIG OFF OF LOSS
Josh Koscheck
Martin Kampmann
Dan Hardy
John Hathaway
Nate Diaz
Matt Hughes
Matt Serra
Chris Lytle



One correction, if there is a need for a tourney, it is because Shields will be coming off a loss.

ncordless
3/4/11 5:59:28PM
I think I would seed an 8 man tourney like this:

1. Fitch
2. Shields
3. Alves
4. Penn
5. Kos
6. Condit
7. Diego
8. Kampmann

Fitch v Kampmann
Penn v. Kos

Shields v Diego
Alves v Condit


Fitch/Kampmann v Penn/Kos

Shields/Diego v Alves/Condit

Fitch/Kampmann/Penn/Kos v Shields/Diego/Alves/Condit

Left hand bracket might be a little stronger, but I like the 1st round match ups and the possibilities of the later rounds.
jjeans
3/4/11 6:20:44PM
Righttt, if match ups were cancelled, and GSP decided to F*Off what would i do?

4 Man Tourn
Koscheck BJ
Shields Fitch

Next potential challengers
Alves vs Condit
Lytle Vs Sanchez
Stun Gun Vs Kampmann
Hughes Vs Hardy

Other Match Ups
Serra Vs Hathaway
Almedia Vs John Howard
Rory MacDonald Vs Jake Ellenberger
Rick Story Vs Paulo Thiago
Mike Pierce Vs Rumble
Mike Pyle Vs Nate Diaz
Daniel Roberts Vs Brad Tavares
Kris McCray Vs Amir Sadollah
Kpro
3/4/11 6:23:24PM
Looks like the top 6 are pretty clear cut among who's posted so far with Diego, Kampmann, and Hardy just outside that bubble.
jjeans
3/4/11 6:37:54PM

Posted by Kpro

Looks like the top 6 are pretty clear cut among who's posted so far with Diego, Kampmann, and Hardy just outside that bubble.



Personally i think Stungun and Lytle shouldnt be omitted
Kpro
3/4/11 6:51:35PM

Posted by jjeans


Posted by Kpro

Looks like the top 6 are pretty clear cut among who's posted so far with Diego, Kampmann, and Hardy just outside that bubble.



Personally i think Stungun and Lytle shouldnt be omitted



I agree, Stungun would be next after them for me as well, and Lytle would've been also if not for his recent loss to Ebersole. I think that jumps a half dozen other guys ahead of him, especially with his recent injury revelation and indecision on where to go from here with his career.
jjeans
3/4/11 6:56:13PM

Posted by Kpro


Posted by jjeans


Posted by Kpro

Looks like the top 6 are pretty clear cut among who's posted so far with Diego, Kampmann, and Hardy just outside that bubble.



Personally i think Stungun and Lytle shouldnt be omitted



I agree, Stungun would be next after them for me as well, and Lytle would've been also if not for his recent loss to Ebersole. I think that jumps a half dozen other guys ahead of him, especially with his recent injury revelation and indecision on where to go from here with his career.



Oh my god, sorry! Completly forgot about that, my mate had money on it and everything on Ebersole, how could i forget! Yeah, the division changes a heck of a lot with that

Sorry I forgot, yeah, if were doing a top 8 tournament


Posted by ncordless

I think I would seed an 8 man tourney like this:

1. Fitch
2. Shields
3. Alves
4. Penn
5. Kos
6. Condit
7. Diego
8. Kampmann



Makes perfect sense
Kpro
3/4/11 7:04:09PM

Posted by jjeans


Posted by ncordless

I think I would seed an 8 man tourney like this:

1. Fitch
2. Shields
3. Alves
4. Penn
5. Kos
6. Condit
7. Diego
8. Kampmann



Makes perfect sense



Stun Gun vs. Hardy would be the best choice for an alternate bout IMO.
jjeans
3/4/11 7:07:44PM
Or even a Kampmann Diego rematch for an alternate. Whichever both work perfectly for me, man all this talking about it, I just want it to happen now!
Pookie
3/4/11 7:39:35PM
Id do it

1. Penn
2. Fitch
3. Shields
4. Alves
5. Koscheck
6. Kampmann
7. Condit
8. Diego

--- Reserves ---

9. Rumble Johnson
10. Matt Hughes
11. Dan Hardy
12. Paulo Thiago


Penn v. Kampmann
Alves v. Diego
Condit v. Koscheck
Fitch v. Shields
Kpro
3/4/11 7:45:20PM
I don't know how I forgot about Rumble; I'll actually be at the Rumble/Hardy card in a few weeks.

Probably because of his long layoff and I was using fightmatrix.com to come up with a list of UFC WW's, and they generally pull someone if they have a long enough layoff.

I have nothing to do with the site, but I definitely recommend fightmatrix.com for those who have never used it. Great rankings for every weight class with links to each fighters' fight-finder.
Pookie
3/4/11 8:09:21PM
Its exactly what i referenced
BlueSkiesBurn
3/4/11 8:10:12PM
Kampmann just lost two in a row and you have him in the tournament? Say what you will about the fact that he should have won, but he's riding a two fight losing streak and y'all are putting him in a tournament for the title.

One more loss and he'd be cut or, at least, in severe danger of being cut.
Kpro
3/4/11 8:18:52PM

Posted by BlueSkiesBurn

Kampmann just lost two in a row and you have him in the tournament? Say what you will about the fact that he should have won, but he's riding a two fight losing streak and y'all are putting him in a tournament for the title.

One more loss and he'd be cut or, at least, in severe danger of being cut.



Hardy is coming off of 2 losses also and I still consider him a top 10 UFC WW. I consider Kampmann and Hardy 9 and 10 respectively. And being a hypothetical 8 man tourney, Either guy should be right in the discussion for the final spot.
BlueSkiesBurn
3/4/11 8:22:18PM

Posted by Kpro


Posted by BlueSkiesBurn

Kampmann just lost two in a row and you have him in the tournament? Say what you will about the fact that he should have won, but he's riding a two fight losing streak and y'all are putting him in a tournament for the title.

One more loss and he'd be cut or, at least, in severe danger of being cut.



Hardy is coming off of 2 losses also and I still consider him a top 10 UFC WW. I consider Kampmann and Hardy 9 and 10 respectively. And being a hypothetical 8 man tourney, Either guy should be right in the discussion for the final spot.



Come title time, I don't put anyone with two losses, and I'm sorry I missed Hardy, too, in the discussion.
Kpro
3/4/11 8:23:32PM

Posted by BlueSkiesBurn


Posted by Kpro


Posted by BlueSkiesBurn

Kampmann just lost two in a row and you have him in the tournament? Say what you will about the fact that he should have won, but he's riding a two fight losing streak and y'all are putting him in a tournament for the title.

One more loss and he'd be cut or, at least, in severe danger of being cut.



Hardy is coming off of 2 losses also and I still consider him a top 10 UFC WW. I consider Kampmann and Hardy 9 and 10 respectively. And being a hypothetical 8 man tourney, Either guy should be right in the discussion for the final spot.



Come title time, I don't put anyone with two losses, and I'm sorry I missed Hardy, too, in the discussion.



Understandable, but Kampmann vs. Hardy would make a great alternate bout outside of an 8 man tourney.

Plus, in an 8 man tourney, by the time you actually win the title, if you do, you're on at least a 3 fight winning streak.
Pookie
3/4/11 8:25:43PM

Posted by BlueSkiesBurn

Kampmann just lost two in a row and you have him in the tournament? Say what you will about the fact that he should have won, but he's riding a two fight losing streak and y'all are putting him in a tournament for the title.

One more loss and he'd be cut or, at least, in severe danger of being cut.



But can you name a fighter who deserves it more?

Kampmann's losses to Diego and Shields showed more skill than anybody else's wins who wasnt included.

A tournament for the title shouldnt be about who's won recently, it should be about the skill level of the competitors. The best fighters in the division are who deserve the title shot.

BlueSkiesBurn
3/4/11 8:33:47PM

Posted by Kpro

Understandable, but Kampmann vs. Hardy would make a great alternate bout outside of an 8 man tourney.

Plus, in an 8 man tourney, by the time you actually win the title, if you do, you're on at least a 3 fight winning streak.



I'm amenable to them fighting for an alternate spot, but not an outright place in the tournament.


Posted by Pookie
But can you name a fighter who deserves it more?

Kampmann's losses to Diego and Shields showed more skill than anybody else's wins who wasnt included.

A tournament for the title shouldnt be about who's won recently, it should be about the skill level shown. The best fighters in the division are who deserve the title shot.




I'd leave him and Koscheck out. Do a six man tourney. Koscheck is coming off a loss and has already stated he won't fight Fitch. Which he will have to do in tournament. Why bother running the risk of a fight that neither will take?
Pookie
3/4/11 8:41:29PM

Posted by BlueSkiesBurn

Koscheck is coming off a loss and has already stated he won't fight Fitch. Which he will have to do in tournament. Why bother running the risk of a fight that neither will take?



Thats good logic. Normally i allow my ideal's to supercede logic in matters like this, so i appreciate the counterpoint.

However, If you made it happen... which one would withdraw for the other? Would either of them withdraw from the tournament, placing another 3-4 extra contenders between them and the title picture? Probably not.
Would one of them throw in the towel once the fight starts? Possibly.

But either way you put the weight on their shoulders, and i think thats the best way to get someone to change their minds. If Koscheck makes it to the semi-finals and see's that its fitch that he has to go through to move up from #4 to #2 and possibly #1, i think he fights him. In a heartbeat.
ncordless
3/4/11 9:54:14PM
In seeding the tourney, I am not really basing it on their recent won/loss record so much as who I think the best 8 fighters are. I think the 8 guys I listed would beat the others not listed. As far as a fighter losing their last two getting a title shot, the tournament would take care of that. If it's for the title, the two finalists will have won their last two fights against top competition. If it is for a title shot, they eventual title contender will have gone 3-0 against the best.
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