Is Thiago Alves' win tainted?

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POLL: Should Thiago be given a title shot now?
Yes - he looked awesome (even though he missed weight) 25% (20)
No way - missing weight takes him out of it 30% (24)
Still needs ONE more win over top competition 43% (34)
Who cares about Thiago?? 1% (1)
npayant
6/9/08 11:36:46AM
Hey guys!

I'm just curious to see what some of you think...

Was Alves' win over Hughes tainted by him not making weight?

Will Dana White forgive him that easily and give him the title shot?

I'm a huge fan of Thiago, but when he didn't make weight, I was VERY disappointed. I was thinking right away that now it didn't matter if he won or not... he still lost his shot. But after his great performance (even though he was HUGE compared to Matt IMO), I started to question this. He pleaded to White after the match, and I'm very curious to see if he'll actually get the winner of GSP/Fitch. I think he still should be given one more chance. The risk --- if he misses weight in a title bout, that could ruin his career in the UFC (maybe??). Will White forgive him?

Looking forward to some of your views on this.
bigbubbano23
6/9/08 11:44:19AM
i really didn't take that into consideration because of his foot. so i would say no
grappler0000
6/9/08 11:47:05AM
Although his win shouldn't be completely discredited, it technically wasn't a win at welterweight. If this was strike one, it could probably be overlooked, but he has two blemished now...ultimately, it will be a management decision, so it only matters how the UFC interprets this. I wouldn't expect them to make an immediate decision though, as GSP and Fitch still need to fight. In Thiago's defense, this was the result of a sprained ankle, which I can sympathize with, but I don't think it really changes much.
Twenty20Dollars
6/9/08 11:53:22AM
Well thiago is a big WW. His win isnt tainted.

He should def. be next in line for a title shot. Dana say way back when thiago would be next after fitch fought gsp, but thiago said he wasnt going to sit and wait for a title shot and then goes and beats Matt Hughes.

Dana should give him the next title shot, unless dana white is going to pull some arlovski shit, tell him if he wins his next fight he gets a title shot and then not give him one, regardless if it was a boring fight.

Hughes had a boring fight over chris lytle and then got a title shot.
DevonFoxy
6/9/08 12:03:11PM

Posted by grappler0000

Although his win shouldn't be completely discredited, it technically wasn't a win at welterweight. If this was strike one, it could probably be overlooked, but he has two blemished now...ultimately, it will be a management decision, so it only matters how the UFC interprets this. I wouldn't expect them to make an immediate decision though, as GSP and Fitch still need to fight. In Thiago's defense, this was the result of a sprained ankle, which I can sympathize with, but I don't think it really changes much.



Agreed the injury explains the not making the weight but doesn't excuse it. You gotta make the weight end of story.

Great win for Alves but the thing that irkes me is that he didn't even try to loose any more weight after he weighed in heavy. I know it would have drained him but at least he could have said he tried. The fight probably would have went the same way if he did so....idk maybe because im used to wrestling and if you miss weight you let everyone down so i might be being to harsh but still your job is to fight at 170 pounds not 174.
dannyfrank
6/9/08 12:10:45PM
hes a naturally big guy and i dont think that being 4 lbs over made a huge difference in the fight
Rush
6/9/08 12:11:18PM
I think the weight issue taints his win in the sense with hardcore fans, but I don't think it changes the fact that there aren't too many (if any) people for him left to beat for a title shot. Don't misunderstand this statement as me accepting the fact that missed weight. I think he should have been punished more than he was. In the end, I don't set-up the fights so my opinion is moot, but I don't see there being another fight for Alves unless Dana wants to make a statement. Personally I think getting his ass handed to him in a title fight would be the stronger message.

I say give him a shot, but if he loses, he must rack up 2-3 solid wins to get another one. One of those wins being the loser of GSP-Fitch.

Any bit of controversy always taints a win or a loss, but there was little doubt watching the fight that Alves was a level above Hughes. I don't think the catchweight changed it with respect to the result, but I agree that this incident (coupled with the diuretic incident) will not make the next couple years easy for Alves.

Why Hughes didn't go for an ankle lock in the first round is beyond me. That tape would have made it easy to grab on.
Franklinfan47
6/9/08 12:20:29PM
He stated it was because of injury or something so he couldn't train for 4 days and lose the weight. Believe it or don't, but thats what he says. Regardless, I think he'll still get his title shot regardless. He beat Karo and Hughes now, so I don't see a name bigger than them available to fight before GSP. In my opinion, wait till Fitch and GSP fight, and have him fight the winner. If its GSP, we'll see if GSP can withstand Alve's crazy striking, and if its Fitch, we get to see a rematch and see how Alves changes his gameplan up to deal with Fitch's submissions.
nickcuc547
6/9/08 12:23:44PM
not making weight doesn't in any way taint the absolute destruction of hughes, thiago was very impressive and he will never miss weight again.
89vision
6/9/08 12:25:29PM
Sorry but I'm getting pretty tired of this topic. Matt Hughes missed weight back at the 1st Carlos Newton fight and that was a TITLE FIGHT. Thiago misses weight and all of the sudden hes a bad guy and his win should be downsized because he was 4 pounds over from an injury. Both of these guys came into the fight noticeable bigger than 170, Hughes has done that for years, Alves looked just as big Hughes. So if you really wanna get technical many fighters never fight at there natural weight class. You cannot take away from Thiago's win, people who are being mello dramatic about this obviously are just sore that Hughes lost because Thiago didnt miss weight for a title fight like Matt did, oh wait most of the playgrounders havnt been fans that long to know that.
vince25
6/9/08 12:27:38PM
Four pounds isn't enough to put up consern. But i bet dana is mad and he'll make thiago get another win now. Besides after fitch, gsp needs to fight penn.
npayant
6/9/08 12:34:50PM

Posted by 89vision

Sorry but I'm getting pretty tired of this topic. Matt Hughes missed weight back at the 1st Carlos Newton fight and that was a TITLE FIGHT. Thiago misses weight and all of the sudden hes a bad guy and his win should be downsized because he was 4 pounds over from an injury. Both of these guys came into the fight noticeable bigger than 170, Hughes has done that for years, Alves looked just as big Hughes. So if you really wanna get technical many fighters never fight at there natural weight class. You cannot take away from Thiago's win, people who are being mello dramatic about this obviously are just sore that Hughes lost because Thiago didnt miss weight for a title fight like Matt did, oh wait most of the playgrounders havnt been fans that long to know that.



Thanks for your comments. Your expertise on this issue is greatly appreciated...

BTW, I wasn't creating this topic because I thought Thiago should be doomed... Notice that I said he should get another chance and that's what I voted as well. But, as you can see this is a highly debatable issue by the voting and some of the responses. And by doing a forum search, it's not like this topic has been OVERLY discussed with 2-3 topics on it (and none specifically about this).
grappler0000
6/9/08 12:35:30PM

Posted by 89vision

Sorry but I'm getting pretty tired of this topic. Matt Hughes missed weight back at the 1st Carlos Newton fight and that was a TITLE FIGHT. Thiago misses weight and all of the sudden hes a bad guy and his win should be downsized because he was 4 pounds over from an injury. Both of these guys came into the fight noticeable bigger than 170, Hughes has done that for years, Alves looked just as big Hughes. So if you really wanna get technical many fighters never fight at there natural weight class. You cannot take away from Thiago's win, people who are being mello dramatic about this obviously are just sore that Hughes lost because Thiago didnt miss weight for a title fight like Matt did, oh wait most of the playgrounders havnt been fans that long to know that.



Sorry to break it to you, but you are wrong...Hughes did not miss weight in his first fight with Carlos. He initially weighed in over the mark, but was able to drop the weight within the time limit.
Aaronno9
6/9/08 12:39:02PM
So Travis Lutter misses weight and hes the biggest douche on the planet and doesn't deserve to be fighting any more, then Thiago misses and its ok becouse "hes already a big guy" or becouse "hughes missed weight before"? I think when hughes missed weight he was given time to make it and he got down to 170 anyways. I dont know if they offered thiago the time or not and he just said he couldnt do it, but they definatly knew he wasn't going to make weight before the weigh in.

Its not even the first time hes missed weight. I mean, the guys got huge potential, so i can understand why the ufc wants to give him another chance but i dont think he deserves a title shot, no way.



EDIT - Just for the record, i think Thiago looked awesome, as per, but it is what it is, he missed weight, and needs to have some sort or repercussion.
billycarnage
6/9/08 12:45:02PM
The line to GSP is rapidly growing. Fitch is up. There is talk of Penn being on deck. Then there is Alves and his controversy. Before Saturday a lot of people had Davis in line as well but Swick to care of that. I think Alves needs one more fight against Diego Kos or Swick. He needs to make weight and win. Then he deserves a title shot. I think GSP vs Penn is a much bigger draw even though it is all speculation. I am confident that it would be Penn vs Alves in that case but still one more fight!
DangerousDjohn
6/9/08 1:03:46PM
I love Thiago. He is very exciting. Here is what I tell him if Im Dana.

Dana: Thiago you impressed me again against Matt.

Thiago: Thank you can I get a title shot?

Dana: You dissappointed me with the weight though.

Thiago: I know, it was the injury, at least I didnt use the drugs.


Dana: I know so here is what we'll do...If you want it so bad you can have the title shot...but if you come in over weight...I rip up your contract...that would be strike 3.I know so here is what we'll do...If you want it so bad you can have the title shot...but if your come in overweight...I rip up your contract..that would be strike 3.
NinjaCyborg
6/9/08 1:04:33PM

Posted by billycarnage

The line to GSP is rapidly growing. Fitch is up. There is talk of Penn being on deck. Then there is Alves and his controversy. Before Saturday a lot of people had Davis in line as well but Swick to care of that. I think Alves needs one more fight against Diego Kos or Swick. He needs to make weight and win. Then he deserves a title shot. I think GSP vs Penn is a much bigger draw even though it is all speculation. I am confident that it would be Penn vs Alves in that case but still one more fight!



I personally think Alves is already above Diego, Kos and Swick. If he was forced to fight one of those guys next it wouldn't benefit him.
I would prefer to see Alves fight the winner of Fitch/GSP

About not making weight.... The weigh in's are the day before the fight. Over the next 24 hours, and by the time the fights actually start fighters are already rehydrated and weigh about 10 - 15 pounds heavier than they did at the weigh in. So it just seems ridiculous to me to make a big deal about a fighter not making weight because he's not actually going to weigh 170 pounds when they fight anyway.

I think there should either be stricter weight class standards, or the weigh in's should be immediately before the fights.

stock
6/9/08 1:09:12PM
After Alves beat Karo, I said that he is one WW win away from a title shot.
I still stand by that statement.

I doesn't really matter if I think he would have beat him regardless if he made weight or not (which I do). The fact is, he did not get a WW win.

I don't understand the argument of him "being a big guy" as even being valid. If he is too big to make weight then shouldn't he be fighting at MW?

I'm sorry, but I just have absolutely no sympathy for not making the weight. I gave no slack to Lutter. I gave no slack to Gina, and I will not give any slack to Alves.
BTW.. Hughes DID make weight when he fought Newton. He was given an hour to lose an extra pound or less, and he did it. Lutter was given the same opportunity, but still came in heavy. I am sure Alves would have been given the same opportunity as well if he did not come in SOOOOOO heavy.

That all being said, I think Alves is a great fighter. If he can get another win at WW I think he is definitely deserving of the next title shot. I'd like to see him fight Diego or Kos next.
89vision
6/9/08 1:20:05PM

Posted by grappler0000


Posted by 89vision

Sorry but I'm getting pretty tired of this topic. Matt Hughes missed weight back at the 1st Carlos Newton fight and that was a TITLE FIGHT. Thiago misses weight and all of the sudden hes a bad guy and his win should be downsized because he was 4 pounds over from an injury. Both of these guys came into the fight noticeable bigger than 170, Hughes has done that for years, Alves looked just as big Hughes. So if you really wanna get technical many fighters never fight at there natural weight class. You cannot take away from Thiago's win, people who are being mello dramatic about this obviously are just sore that Hughes lost because Thiago didnt miss weight for a title fight like Matt did, oh wait most of the playgrounders havnt been fans that long to know that.



Sorry to break it to you, but you are wrong...Hughes did not miss weight in his first fight with Carlos. He initially weighed in over the mark, but was able to drop the weight within the time limit.



he came in overweight, not 4 pounds but still overweight
grappler0000
6/9/08 1:31:54PM

Posted by 89vision


Posted by grappler0000


Posted by 89vision

Sorry but I'm getting pretty tired of this topic. Matt Hughes missed weight back at the 1st Carlos Newton fight and that was a TITLE FIGHT. Thiago misses weight and all of the sudden hes a bad guy and his win should be downsized because he was 4 pounds over from an injury. Both of these guys came into the fight noticeable bigger than 170, Hughes has done that for years, Alves looked just as big Hughes. So if you really wanna get technical many fighters never fight at there natural weight class. You cannot take away from Thiago's win, people who are being mello dramatic about this obviously are just sore that Hughes lost because Thiago didnt miss weight for a title fight like Matt did, oh wait most of the playgrounders havnt been fans that long to know that.



Sorry to break it to you, but you are wrong...Hughes did not miss weight in his first fight with Carlos. He initially weighed in over the mark, but was able to drop the weight within the time limit.



he came in overweight, not 4 pounds but still overweight



by "came in overweight", if you mean that when he initially stepped on the scale, then yes he was over...however, he did lose the extra weight within the alloted time period...so no he did not miss weight as you originally stated. It's not that uncommon for a fighter to have to make a 2nd trip to the scale...and it's a world of difference from what you originally accused him of.
Nightmare27
6/9/08 1:40:43PM
The way I see it a fighter only has two jobs, make weight and put on a good fight. Alves only did half of his job, how can he ask for a title shot after only doing half of his job. How dumb would you look if you went into your bosses office and asked him for a pay raise after you were just ten minutes late to work that morning?
DangerousDjohn
6/9/08 1:56:19PM

Posted by Nightmare27

The way I see it a fighter only has two jobs, make weight and put on a good fight. Alves only did half of his job, how can he ask for a title shot after only doing half of his job. How dumb would you look if you went into your bosses office and asked him for a pay raise after you were just ten minutes late to work that morning?

YOu kind of right, but Alves has won like his last 6 UFC fights. He deserves it more than a lot of other people. If Swick gets it, that will be BS. Really if anyone other than Thiago in that division gets a title shot it will BS. It is Thiago, BJ, or Anderson.
Rush
6/9/08 2:25:26PM

Posted by NinjaCyborg

About not making weight.... The weigh in's are the day before the fight. Over the next 24 hours, and by the time the fights actually start fighters are already rehydrated and weigh about 10 - 15 pounds heavier than they did at the weigh in. So it just seems ridiculous to me to make a big deal about a fighter not making weight because he's not actually going to weigh 170 pounds when they fight anyway.




Umm,

1) Making weight is a rule and it needs to be followed. Out of respect for the sport, your employers, you opponent, and to a lesser degree the fans.

2) Making weight is not just sweating off water in the sauna the night before. For some fighters, yeah maybe, but for most it is a multi-week process that if done incorrectly can leave a fighter feeling weak and out of energy or overweight.

3) The point of weighing in is because all fighters need to be at an even starting point. If we all went by your standard, we might as well not have weight classes.

4) All in all a catch weight would have been acceptable if it had been arranged weeks in advance (like the Hughes Gracie fight if I remember correctly)

I also want to ask the question if Alves really had a sore ankle or if he just taped it up and said he sprained it. Did he probide medical evidence that he sprained his ankle?
tuvok500
6/9/08 2:37:06PM
I think Alves should face another top 5 at the exact weight limit before claiming to be ready for a title shot.

Anyways, Alves can weight 200 if he want, GSP will humiliate him !!!

Nightmare27
6/9/08 2:42:20PM

Posted by DangerousDjohn


Posted by Nightmare27

The way I see it a fighter only has two jobs, make weight and put on a good fight. Alves only did half of his job, how can he ask for a title shot after only doing half of his job. How dumb would you look if you went into your bosses office and asked him for a pay raise after you were just ten minutes late to work that morning?

YOu kind of right, but Alves has won like his last 6 UFC fights. He deserves it more than a lot of other people. If Swick gets it, that will be BS. Really if anyone other than Thiago in that division gets a title shot it will BS. It is Thiago, BJ, or Anderson.



You have a point as well. Who knows when this supposed title shot would even go down. He may want to pick up a fight in the mean while to keep his game sharp. Not to mention silence the naysayers
tuvok500
6/9/08 2:48:06PM

Posted by DangerousDjohn


Posted by Nightmare27

The way I see it a fighter only has two jobs, make weight and put on a good fight. Alves only did half of his job, how can he ask for a title shot after only doing half of his job. How dumb would you look if you went into your bosses office and asked him for a pay raise after you were just ten minutes late to work that morning?

YOu kind of right, but Alves has won like his last 6 UFC fights. He deserves it more than a lot of other people. If Swick gets it, that will be BS. Really if anyone other than Thiago in that division gets a title shot it will BS. It is Thiago, BJ, or Anderson.



Well, let's put Swick against Alves and the winner got his shot for the title.

I personally thing that Swick will win a UD if they fight.


bayonetxwork
6/9/08 2:51:27PM
I didn't get to see the PPV, but how many pounds off was Alves?

Regardless, if you're a professional athlete in a sport divided by weight classes, not making that weight shouldn't even be an option. Lutter didn't make weight when he fought Silva, and was given a second chance, however the tables are slightly different because Alves dominated. With that beiung said, I'd like to see Alves get another win under his belt that his hung with the best. Honestly, I'd be intrigued to see Alves vs. Penn but that should never happen, atleast not in the near future.
Rush
6/9/08 3:13:52PM

Posted by bayonetxwork

I didn't get to see the PPV, but how many pounds off was Alves?



He weighed in at 174 I think, which would make him 3 lbs over. Not a lot of weight for everyday life, but significant in MMA if you ask me.
telnights
6/9/08 3:45:20PM
Well since his win wasn't at WW then yes its tainted he didn't even try to make weight after coming in over weight which tells us he didn't care he was over. There is advantage right there Matt dehydrated down to weight and lost some energy doing so Thiago didn't. That in itself is a big advantage. Their is no excuse for not making weight. If you cant make weight you need to move up to the next weight class.

Now as far as the person saying Matt has missed his weight before your wrong Matt has never came in over weight for a fight.
The_Italian_Stallion
6/9/08 3:55:44PM
I think as "punishment" Dana is going to make him fight again, I'd like to see him and FItch I think that would be a great fight but if Thiago can do that against Hughes I think he can against Fitch... so I don't know what will happen.
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