What do theses great fighters have in common ???

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JohnnyNapalm
8/17/08 8:18:34PM

Posted by Rush


Posted by JohnnyNapalm

Dude, get over it. You made generalizations about 1 particular art based on limited experience. For example, to state that in your opinion karate produces more weak minded individuals than does most other martial arts is just plain ridiculous. Before asking me for evidence about my opinions, how about providing something to support that statement?

You obviously don't get it. You don't bash an entire art and it's participants because of your personal experience. If you had presented it like you did some serious research and gave specifics like "of the 50 karate schools I visited across the US I found the following..." Then maybe your somewhat "extreme" opinion would be worth something on the subject. Otherwise it ain't jack.

Again you can't simply expect people to sit back and believe crap like you stated generally applies to some several thousand participants in a world wide sport/art. I've met and trained with some karateka from eastern Europe and Israel - I'd love to see you explain that weak minded BS to them



You tell me to provide evidence for my experience and then turn around and just tell me "I am wrong" then continue to say my opinion means jack, and then tell me to get over it. The irony is uncanny.

You need to first learn some reading comprehension because you keep insisting that I am generalizing my opinion. Regarding the issues that you are getting your panties in a bunch, you keep insisting that I have generalized yet I have clearly limited it to my own observations and even stated the exception.

It appears that my comments have rubbed you the wrong way. My experiences really happened and I am sorry it's been many years since, but I:

-can't provide audio evidence of karateka that have called my sensei's house threatening to come and get him (for no reason)
-can't provide you with a police report that was filed by my sensei
-can't provide you with video of karateka coming to our dojo and calling out my sensei for no apparent reason
-can't provide you with video evidence of the 22yr old (still in highschool) karateka that kept trying to pick up grade 9 girls
-can't provide you with evidence of the group of guys at a restaurant (in Victoria BC) that acted like a bunch of douche bags. I made a comment after that they reminded me of karateka back home and the people I was with all told me they operated a karate school in the city.
-can't provide video of the karateka that picked a fight with an usher in a theatre because he was drunk
-can't provide evidence how the karate school that would sucker young kids into their black belt program promising to teach them techniques of a supernatural nature.

these were just examples I pulled off the top of my head. I have trained in over a half-dozen different martial arts well over that last decade so I feel that I have a fairly well rounded sample size from which to judge.

If evidence is what you require for every opinion you read on an internet forum, them maybe you should reconsider logging in or take your own advice and "get over it"



First, all those examples you provided are not exclusive to "karateka", they're exclusive to azzholes that can be found in any martial art/sport (for example, Quinton Jackson's most recent fall from grace), sports in general, groups of any kind.

Second, this whole ball got rolling because of some broad sweeping statements you made about karate practitioners in general. For example and I quote:

"I find karateka to be some of the most weak minded martial artists out there"

Based on what body of evidence? Oh yeah, you're limited experience with some idiots that could be found in any martial art/combat sport.

Third, sorry if I embarrassed you by highlighting you're poorly thought-out statement, but it was just that and more. Your defense of "well it's just my opinion" is a spineless cop out.

Lastly, your statement about how karate differs from judo etc is wrong. The same basic physics for power, leverage, weight distribution, etc. apply to all fighting arts. For example, the rotating of the hips in karate for striking is the same as turning into throws for judo. Long before karate branched off into different styles the katas contained throwing techniques that were later changed to striking techniques. Advanced judo kata contain strikes as well. Those who have studied both arts properly know this. Those who haven't are like yourself.




Rush
8/17/08 9:56:42PM

Posted by JohnnyNapalm

First, all those examples you provided are not exclusive to "karateka", they're exclusive to azzholes that can be found in any martial art/sport (for example, Quinton Jackson's most recent fall from grace), sports in general, groups of any kind.




The fact that I could only think of karateka that fit that persona profile says otherwise.


Posted by JohnnyNapalm

Second, this whole ball got rolling because of some broad sweeping statements you made about karate practitioners in general. For example and I quote:
"I find karateka to be some of the most weak minded martial artists out there"
Based on what body of evidence? Oh yeah, you're limited experience with some idiots that could be found in any martial art/combat sport.



What realistic body of evidence are you looking for? Your request for a academic level of an inquisition is even more absurd as my "cop out" (your words) opinion.

The whole point I have made, and you blatantly ignored, is the fact that I have spent less than 20% of my martial arts tenure around karateka and 80% in other arts, but the demographic is reversed when it comes to their demeanor. I have witnessed behavior characteristic of weak minded people. For example, the need to bully others, lack of self-control, etc. If you are a karateka and behave in a honourable manner, then good for you, but the karateka that I have witnessesd (for the most part as I stated initially) do not.


Posted by JohnnyNapalm

Third, sorry if I embarrassed you by highlighting you're poorly thought-out statement, but it was just that and more. Your defense of "well it's just my opinion" is a spineless cop out.




You embarrassed me? LOL Dude, your lack of reading comprehension (or weak attempt at spin doctoring) and strong defensiveness from the get go does not embarrass me. One would think that you should be embarrassed, but I wouldn't presume to tell someone how they feel... how arrogant of you. I guess I should expect that from someone that claims they were born of "immaculate conception"

And while I am on the topic of teaching reading, that wasn't initially my defense. You were the one initially defensive and responded with your own opinion, lacking any of the evidence that you demanded from my post. The irony was even noticed by other members, but you didn't respond to their comments.



Posted by JohnnyNapalm

Lastly, your statement about how karate differs from judo etc is wrong. The same basic physics for power, leverage, weight distribution, etc. apply to all fighting arts. For example, the rotating of the hips in karate for striking is the same as turning into throws for judo. Long before karate branched off into different styles the katas contained throwing techniques that were later changed to striking techniques. Advanced judo kata contain strikes as well. Those who have studied both arts properly know this. Those who haven't are like yourself.



Yeah, I studied karate and am aware of the "hidden" kata movements. Those hidden movements are not applicable like judo, jujutsu or aikido (actual) throws are and the movements only resemble the latter on the surface, but really they are not the same at all. Any experience in the aforementioned arts and one would know the subtleties of the techniques are what make them work. In the hidden karate movements, the rotation is all off and the foot work is all off. Anyone with a smidgen of balance will not be thrown by the "hidden" movements karate has in kata. Maybe you have been fooled by demonstrations or something. The weight distribution in karate stances is different. Many of the stances are much wider than grappling arts. The movements of karate are more linear where judo, jujutsu and aikido are circular. This is why people with long histories of karate training have difficulty picking up judo and aikido. They put too much weight on one leg and step when they should pivot and pivot when they should shift, etc....

As for advanced judo kata. Please. I took judo for 5 years and they are a joke. They offer zero applicability in the real world. IMO, they are more for demonstrating how judo could be applied in a striking situation, but really judo is most effective by the manner in which the train (the clinch).

Any throwing art has branched from aikijujutsu at one point and their techniques are based off sword movements. Karateka have some of the most atrocious kenjutsu I have seen. Why? Because sword movements and karate movements are different. Karateka (who have not studied kenjutsu) swing a sword whilst moving with karate movements. Kenjutsu and karate movements are totally different. So how can karate movements be the same as throwing arts that are directly derived from sword? Hell, most of the time they don't even hold the sword properly and look like they are swinging a baseball bat.

And finally, you are incorrect in your statement about all fighting arts using the same leverage, weight distribution, etc. The leverage depends on what you want to use it for. The weight distribution varies depending on what you are doing (whether it is a punch, throw, cut, kick). The basic physics for throwing a punch do not apply to throws because they are not the same technique. Sure you use your hips to generate most power for both techniques, but by your analogy a boxer should be a natural thrower and they are not.
JohnnyNapalm
8/17/08 11:21:43PM

Posted by Rush


Posted by JohnnyNapalm

First, all those examples you provided are not exclusive to "karateka", they're exclusive to azzholes that can be found in any martial art/sport (for example, Quinton Jackson's most recent fall from grace), sports in general, groups of any kind.




The fact that I could only think of karateka that fit that persona profile says otherwise.


Posted by JohnnyNapalm

Second, this whole ball got rolling because of some broad sweeping statements you made about karate practitioners in general. For example and I quote:
"I find karateka to be some of the most weak minded martial artists out there"
Based on what body of evidence? Oh yeah, you're limited experience with some idiots that could be found in any martial art/combat sport.



What realistic body of evidence are you looking for? Your request for a academic level of an inquisition is even more absurd as my "cop out" (your words) opinion.

The whole point I have made, and you blatantly ignored, is the fact that I have spent less than 20% of my martial arts tenure around karateka and 80% in other arts, but the demographic is reversed when it comes to their demeanor. I have witnessed behavior characteristic of weak minded people. For example, the need to bully others, lack of self-control, etc. If you are a karateka and behave in a honourable manner, then good for you, but the karateka that I have witnessesd (for the most part as I stated initially) do not.


Posted by JohnnyNapalm

Third, sorry if I embarrassed you by highlighting you're poorly thought-out statement, but it was just that and more. Your defense of "well it's just my opinion" is a spineless cop out.




You embarrassed me? LOL Dude, your lack of reading comprehension (or weak attempt at spin doctoring) and strong defensiveness from the get go does not embarrass me. One would think that you should be embarrassed, but I wouldn't presume to tell someone how they feel... how arrogant of you. I guess I should expect that from someone that claims they were born of "immaculate conception"

And while I am on the topic of teaching reading, that wasn't initially my defense. You were the one initially defensive and responded with your own opinion, lacking any of the evidence that you demanded from my post. The irony was even noticed by other members, but you didn't respond to their comments.



Posted by JohnnyNapalm

Lastly, your statement about how karate differs from judo etc is wrong. The same basic physics for power, leverage, weight distribution, etc. apply to all fighting arts. For example, the rotating of the hips in karate for striking is the same as turning into throws for judo. Long before karate branched off into different styles the katas contained throwing techniques that were later changed to striking techniques. Advanced judo kata contain strikes as well. Those who have studied both arts properly know this. Those who haven't are like yourself.



Yeah, I studied karate and am aware of the "hidden" kata movements. Those hidden movements are not applicable like judo, jujutsu or aikido (actual) throws are and the movements only resemble the latter on the surface, but really they are not the same at all. Any experience in the aforementioned arts and one would know the subtleties of the techniques are what make them work. In the hidden karate movements, the rotation is all off and the foot work is all off. Anyone with a smidgen of balance will not be thrown by the "hidden" movements karate has in kata. Maybe you have been fooled by demonstrations or something. The weight distribution in karate stances is different. Many of the stances are much wider than grappling arts. The movements of karate are more linear where judo, jujutsu and aikido are circular. This is why people with long histories of karate training have difficulty picking up judo and aikido. They put too much weight on one leg and step when they should pivot and pivot when they should shift, etc....

As for advanced judo kata. Please. I took judo for 5 years and they are a joke. They offer zero applicability in the real world. IMO, they are more for demonstrating how judo could be applied in a striking situation, but really judo is most effective by the manner in which the train (the clinch).

Any throwing art has branched from aikijujutsu at one point and their techniques are based off sword movements. Karateka have some of the most atrocious kenjutsu I have seen. Why? Because sword movements and karate movements are different. Karateka (who have not studied kenjutsu) swing a sword whilst moving with karate movements. Kenjutsu and karate movements are totally different. So how can karate movements be the same as throwing arts that are directly derived from sword? Hell, most of the time they don't even hold the sword properly and look like they are swinging a baseball bat.

And finally, you are incorrect in your statement about all fighting arts using the same leverage, weight distribution, etc. The leverage depends on what you want to use it for. The weight distribution varies depending on what you are doing (whether it is a punch, throw, cut, kick). The basic physics for throwing a punch do not apply to throws because they are not the same technique. Sure you use your hips to generate most power for both techniques, but by your analogy a boxer should be a natural thrower and they are not.



So while you switch the argument to specific techniques all I said is that the same basic principles apply to all fighting arts to generate power, give balance, etc.

If you understand this, then you can apply them to any art that you are learning even though the techniques may be different. This is why many of the old school martial artists held black belts of various degrees in more than one Martial Art (Hidetaka Nishiyama is one high profile example). After years of training in karate I didn't find judo a difficult transition. My throws were average but my newaza was far above my level relative to those whom I trained with.

This brings us full circle in this discussion. What it comes down to is the individual. You can't make general statements about people just because they train in a particular martial art that you unfortunately had several bad experiences with. Your experiences don't represent all karateka and your statements should have made that clear.

Dooletchetoreh
8/18/08 3:06:47AM

Posted by balack_o-bama

Gsp does not have a strong mental game.



Are you kidding. Getting caught by Matt Serra means you dont have a strong mental game. If there was a way to give negative props I would. GSP is very young, and is one of the most genius fighters out there, element of that combined with his incredible phsyical talents is why hes a world champion and will be for a long time. Their is Nooooooooooooooooooooooo way you can be a world champion and not be intelligent. Name me 1 MMA world champ who does not have a strong mental game.
Rush
8/18/08 11:15:45AM

Posted by JohnnyNapalm

So while you switch the argument to specific techniques all I said is that the same basic principles apply to all fighting arts to generate power, give balance, etc.





You said said basic principles of physics apply to all martial arts. To me this is an obvious statement as the basic principles of physics apply to everything on the plant.



Posted by JohnnyNapalm

Your experiences don't represent all karateka and your statements should have made that clear.





They were, but you failed to see that.


The basic principles of debating and academic writing apply to what has been said here. If I make a statement based on opinion/experience, your rebuttal, if based on opinion or experience is equal until further evidence is proposed that supports one or the other. You never provided that. In science, if you want to disprove some one's theory, you have to test it. If you have data that doesn't test their theory and you get a different answer, at best you have provided evidence for another theory and didn't disprove the original theory.

I would have been perfectly happy to agree to disagree if you had taken my post at face value, but you over- and mis-interpreted it. You criticize my posts as being subjective, which was obvious because I said they were in my post, yet your comments in this thread as well as the Cro Cop thread failed to live up to the expectations that you criticized in my posts. This speaks volumes about your debating mentality.

I have to give props to the_01 fpr having the balls to post a potentially good debate and for appreciating/disagreeing with my opinion for what it was, which is all I was expecting.

However, this discussion has obviously gone waaaaay off topic regarding semantics.
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