Terrible judge from Tanner/Grove fight

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MoJoy
6/26/08 1:05:02AM
This has kind of gone unnoticed. Evan Tanner and Kendall Grove fought last week and Grove got the deserved win. It was an asskicking from start to finish. I wish my best two Evan in his life the rest of the way and beyond. The fight was split decision I think two judges had it 30-27 maybe 30-26 for Grove and the other had it 29-28 for the other dude. Many people will say ok Grove got the win, he deserved, lets move on. I see a huge problem. We got lucky that two judges where sane that night. The fact that it was scored that way that judge is off putting. What happens if this judge does more fights. That fight Grove dominated every round. I would not have been surprised had he been given 10-8 scores for those rounds. Where is the accoutablity for the judge who scored it so bad. This is a million miles worse that anything Miraglioota has done in an MMA fight. Hes making split second decisions in the heat of the fight. That guy had the whole round each time to make a score how in the world did he score it like that. What happens to him? That was criminal. Is he allowed to judge again, why does he not have to explain himself in a press conference. The fact the others got it right should not let that guy slide. That really made me mad. This guy needs to step in front of an audience an expalin himself. Without a doubt.
pdanke
6/26/08 7:41:51AM
I wouldn't say it was unnoticed...

http://www.mmaplayground.com/forums/topic20788-1.html
scoozna
6/26/08 9:03:30AM
I don't think it was mentioned in the other thread, but the name of the judge is apparently Al Lefkowitz. I found this on Five Ounces of Pain
gsquat
6/26/08 10:02:42AM
Word... Should'a been a UD.
ToeZup
6/26/08 11:27:39AM

Posted by scoozna

I don't think it was mentioned in the other thread, but the name of the judge is apparently Al Lefkowitz. I found this on Five Ounces of Pain



Thanks for that info scoozna, props.

I agree with the o.p. Where did that score come from? Amazing......
The crazy thing is this kind of thing happens more often than not. I don't know if anyone else has noticed but Cecil Peoples is wrong a lot.
scoozna
6/26/08 11:47:16AM

Posted by ToeZup


Posted by scoozna

I don't think it was mentioned in the other thread, but the name of the judge is apparently Al Lefkowitz. I found this on Five Ounces of Pain



Thanks for that info scoozna, props.

I agree with the o.p. Where did that score come from? Amazing......
The crazy thing is this kind of thing happens more often than not. I don't know if anyone else has noticed but Cecil Peoples is wrong a lot.



I think Rogan deserves a bit of credit for calling attention to questionable scores when he does the post-fight interviews.

Does anyone know a good website that shows the judges and their scores after each event?
RiseUp21
6/26/08 12:52:43PM

Posted by ToeZup

I don't know if anyone else has noticed but Cecil Peoples is wrong a lot.



hah. i'd be surprised if this wasnt common knowledge.
kaduey
6/26/08 12:57:58PM
How the hell can two judges call 30-26 for Grove and the one judge call it 30-27 Tanner. That was worst than the Bisping Hamill fight. But I'm sure they'll use the same tired ass excuse of the judges seeing the fights from different angles of the ring, therefore changing their perception of the fight.
MoJoy
6/26/08 1:47:47PM
Thanks for the dap guys but my point is where is the deserved accountablity. What happens to this particular judge from here? Why do fighters have to give all these press conferences after the are in a fight, on the way to a hospital and this guy gets a pass. Does he judge again? Was he fined? You guys get all over Thiago Alves for not making weight. You guys get all over Dan for some horrible reffing calls and rightly so I may say. What this guy did is a million times worse than that. Does this guy get the brush off treatment or does he get taken to task. This was worse than Hamill Bisbing cause both guys came to fight that night. Grove dominated this fight, how in the world did he score two rounds for Tanner. I want some kind of direct responsibilty. That was disgusting. That was a shame.
Kpro
6/26/08 2:05:20PM

Posted by MoJoy

Thanks for the dap guys but my point is where is the deserved accountablity. What happens to this particular judge from here? Why do fighters have to give all these press conferences after the are in a fight, on the way to a hospital and this guy gets a pass. Does he judge again? Was he fined? You guys get all over Thiago Alves for not making weight. You guys get all over Dan for some horrible reffing calls and rightly so I may say. What this guy did is a million times worse than that. Does this guy get the brush off treatment or does he get taken to task. This was worse than Hamill Bisbing cause both guys came to fight that night. Grove dominated this fight, how in the world did he score two rounds for Tanner. I want some kind of direct responsibilty. That was disgusting. That was a shame.



The accountability is that they'll just make sure he's never paired with Cecil Peoples as judges for any single fight. This way the worst they can do individually is cause a Split Decision.
keith-hackney1
6/26/08 5:45:09PM
The biggest questions that puzzle me when it comes to UFC judges is what types of combat they base the scoring criteria on. I know the UFC state that judges score each bout with a 10-9 must scoring system where the winner gets 10 and the loser gets 9 or less based on Aggression, affective striking, grappling and octagon control though in many occasions this is not the case. It seems to me that wrestlers get a head start in MMA judging, if there are a few takedowns in a 3 round bout, it seems to be the way that this will score higher on the cards than landing affective damaging strikes that are clearly visible on the opponents body/face. So many fights through the last few years have been scored wrong, heres a few IMO ... starting with most recent .. Marquardt vs lietes, Bisping vs hamill, Tyson griffin vs clay guida, GSP vs Penn and not forgetting .. Ortiz vs griffin. There is loads more than the ones i have high lighted, just these are some well known bouts that you guys would all have seen.
Apart from marquardt/lietes, the other fights that won on the cards when it should have gone the other way was pretty much due to a couple of takedowns. The scoring system needs to be simplified to the point where a UFC fan in the crowd or watching at home understands the system better, almost to the point where any onlooker would be able to watch a fight (with MMA knowledge) and score the fight themselves, leaving no doubts in the minds that the winner is clearly unanimous in victory.

Any thoughts ... cheers
Franklinfan47
6/26/08 11:52:22PM
I dont think any of us control which judges get issued to which fights, so I would say theres not much we can do about it and move on. It was definately a UD though.
MoJoy
6/27/08 12:10:35AM
I still want to know. What happens to that judge after the fight. Does anyone talk to him. Does he go about his business. Does he judge again in the ufc. How can anyfighter feel they will be given a fair shake when that guy is the judge. What happens going forward.
Pitbull09
6/27/08 12:22:43AM

Posted by keith-hackney1

The biggest questions that puzzle me when it comes to UFC judges is what types of combat they base the scoring criteria on. I know the UFC state that judges score each bout with a 10-9 must scoring system where the winner gets 10 and the loser gets 9 or less based on Aggression, affective striking, grappling and octagon control though in many occasions this is not the case. It seems to me that wrestlers get a head start in MMA judging, if there are a few takedowns in a 3 round bout, it seems to be the way that this will score higher on the cards than landing affective damaging strikes that are clearly visible on the opponents body/face. So many fights through the last few years have been scored wrong, heres a few IMO ... starting with most recent .. Marquardt vs lietes, Bisping vs hamill, Tyson griffin vs clay guida, GSP vs Penn and not forgetting .. Ortiz vs griffin. There is loads more than the ones i have high lighted, just these are some well known bouts that you guys would all have seen.
Apart from marquardt/lietes, the other fights that won on the cards when it should have gone the other way was pretty much due to a couple of takedowns. The scoring system needs to be simplified to the point where a UFC fan in the crowd or watching at home understands the system better, almost to the point where any onlooker would be able to watch a fight (with MMA knowledge) and score the fight themselves, leaving no doubts in the minds that the winner is clearly unanimous in victory.

Any thoughts ... cheers



I agree with this somewhat but the problem with addressing specific judging tatics or "simplifying" it is that a fighter would be more inclined to know what he needs to do to gain the judges favor. This isn't really bad but it goes back to takedowns as a fighter will know that will help him out and look for it rather than actually trying to be the best in the fight.

I fully agree with you though that judges care about a lot of takedowns that lead to nothing but stalemates or ones that happen at the end of the round. Why should a takedown matter if the round ends? No damage really was done and you shouldnt predict where the fight would have gone if there was more time in the round.

I think just as the sport has evolved, the judging system needs fixed and also the UFC needs to watch for idiot judges in the sport like this one. He should be fired for this and needs to have someone to answer to for the BS call he made.
MoJoy
6/27/08 1:21:55AM
Any sport accoutablity should be across the board. If a ref screws up an nba game, he should explain himself. Not only the players have to. Why do MMM fighters, after fights have to go to press conferences and judges can do whatever the hell they want and go about their business. This was criminal what that judge did. The height of wrongness.
voodoo-jitsu
6/27/08 2:05:28AM
i want to know how i can become a judge?.....can i do any worse?
ToeZup
6/27/08 9:55:39AM

Posted by RiseUp21


Posted by ToeZup

I don't know if anyone else has noticed but Cecil Peoples is wrong a lot.



hah. i'd be surprised if this wasnt common knowledge.



Good call my friend. Props.
Funny thing is he is always there...judging away.
keith-hackney1
6/27/08 4:06:17PM

You know there is a serious problem with the judging system in the UFC when you get the results turn out like they did in this bout.
If two judges see it 30-27/26 for Grove and the other had it 29-28 for tanner, you got to wonder what fight they were all watching. It seems to me that fights tend to get judged alot on opinions rather than criteria. I do believe that the UFC have a hand in the scoring at times, I know NSAC have their own rules and regulations but with so much gambling that goes on in sports these days, you would never rule it out. It needs to be investigated and then hopefully modified slightly to adjust the rules so that MMA becomes the Scoring criteria rather than any type of base fighting styles.
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