that was a tap....that was a tap

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MFOTHER
6/21/08 11:19:48PM
f u cb....you got caught......again .....stop bitchin
Rush
6/21/08 11:38:07PM
Anyone who thinks that was an official tap (including Dean, Rogan and Goldberg) need to review the UFC's rules.

That call by Herb Dean is about on par with calling a KO finish due to an illegal blow or deducting a point for a legal blow.
MFOTHER
6/22/08 12:07:23AM
not trying to be a dick....but do you have them.....he tapped his hand once....looked like it was going to be a second.........do they see you need two or more or something?
MFOTHER
6/22/08 12:08:36AM
Ways To Win: [Top]
1. Submission by:
Physical tap out.
Verbal tap out.
2. Technical knockout by the referee stopping the contest.
3. Decision via the scorecards, including:
Unanimous decision [all judges pick the same fighter as the winner].
Split decision [One judge picks one fighter, the other two judges pick the other fighter].
Majority decision [two of three judges pick the same fighter as the winner].
Draw, including:
Unanimous draw.
Majority draw.
Split draw.
4. Technical decision.
5. Technical draw.
6. Disqualification.
7. Forfeit.
8. No contest.


thats all i could find
dannyfrank
6/22/08 12:10:14AM
yeah, i dont see how anyone can say that wasn't a tapout
ObsoleteMan
6/22/08 12:13:53AM
Well, the rules on wikipedia say specifically that one must tap three times:

# Submission: a fighter may admit defeat during a match by:

* tapping three times on his opponent's body;
* tapping three times on the mat or floor;
* verbal announcement.

Personally, I'm really ambivalent about this. I think that Amir was about to win either way, but like the Kimbo fight, I think the ref should've waited for it to be definite. I can understand where Herb Dean was coming from though, he saw one clear tap, and jumped in right away. How many times do you see one clear tap, and then an escape?

EDIT: I'm lazy, and didn't check any further. Both the Nevada and New Jersey website merely say "physical tap", not referencing the number of taps at any point.
http://www.leg.state.nv.us/NAC/NAC-467.html
http://www.state.nj.us/lps/sacb/docs/martial.html
juanez13
6/22/08 12:15:09AM
it was pretty clear he tapped once, so i think the Ref assumed that he was on his way to keep tapping, so he stopped the fight to prevent an Injury.......i dont disagree with the stoppage, i think it was pretty clear that was a fight ending sub, dont see how he would have gotten out....
Rush
6/22/08 12:16:55AM
That rule page on the official site has been changed. It looks different. The wikipedia entry still has the original tap 3 times.


I mean, it is common sense. I see so many single taps that occur in the match with and without sub attempts.

There is nothing more I can say about this. There is no point in arguing.

ncordless
6/22/08 12:17:41AM
I wouldn't quote wiki for evidence... ever.

I do think that the stoppage was justified... if the 3 tap rule was rigidly enforced, whats to stop a wave of fake taps? Fake tapping is definitely not part of MMA, and I wouldn't want to see it become part of MMA.
grappler0000
6/22/08 12:19:46AM

Posted by MFOTHER

not trying to be a dick....but do you have them.....he tapped his hand once....looked like it was going to be a second.........do they see you need two or more or something?



Part of my problem with the stoppage is that he wasn't actually going to tap a second time...I rewatched it a dozen times and the one motion is it. In fact, the second angle they show in the replay might even show that he didn't even complete the first tap. It looks as though he gets very close to contact, but retreats.
npayant
6/22/08 12:20:00AM

Posted by MFOTHER

Ways To Win: [Top]
1. Submission by:
Physical tap out.
Verbal tap out.
2. Technical knockout by the referee stopping the contest.
3. Decision via the scorecards, including:
Unanimous decision [all judges pick the same fighter as the winner].
Split decision [One judge picks one fighter, the other two judges pick the other fighter].
Majority decision [two of three judges pick the same fighter as the winner].
Draw, including:
Unanimous draw.
Majority draw.
Split draw.
4. Technical decision.
5. Technical draw.
6. Disqualification.
7. Forfeit.
8. No contest.


thats all i could find



Yeah, this is all I could find too (besides Wikipedia... which I would not trust over the UFC site for UFC rules). On the UFC site there is no where it says a fighter must tap 3 times for it to be a submission. I must say, that I've heard the "rule" many times about the 3 taps, but I just don't see that on UFC.com. In fact, immediately after the fight I was pissed because I thought it had to be 3 taps and went right to the site only to find what you found here Mayhem. I was thinking, "crap, I was wrong."

My question... What the hell was CB doing?!?! I thought for sure he'd win it this time because he wouldn't be stupid enough to get caught again... DAMN!



Oh well...
ObsoleteMan
6/22/08 12:23:15AM

Posted by ncordless

I wouldn't quote wiki for evidence... ever.

I do think that the stoppage was justified... if the 3 tap rule was rigidly enforced, whats to stop a wave of fake taps? Fake tapping is definitely not part of MMA, and I wouldn't want to see it become part of MMA.



Good point. Forget my previous post. From the wiki page, I went to the the New Jersey Commission's website, which merely says

1. Submission by:
i. Tap Out:When a contestant physically uses his hand to indicate that he or she no longer wishes to continue; or
ii. Verbal tap out:When a contestant verbally announces to the referee that he or she does not wish to continue;

So, yeah. Ambivalence gone, legit stoppage, imo.
seanfu
6/22/08 12:25:47AM
I seriously don't think this means shit. He was in the bar but it was hyperextended big time without a sign of slipping. I disagree with the stoppage but it's really not a huge deal.

Plus you can guarrentee he'll be back and prove himself.
telnights
6/22/08 12:30:32AM
It was a good stoppage he got caught and the armbar was tight. You cant tap just once and say you didn't tap. For all Dean knows is that you can only tap once and couldn't get the other 2 off because your arm is breaking. It wasn't like that wasn't what he was meaning to do he moved his hand up and away from the action and tapped once on the thigh of Amir. You cant half tap guys it doesn't work that way. CB knows that and so does every other MMA fighter. Give Amir his props that was a damn good armbar.
npayant
6/22/08 12:37:05AM

Posted by seanfu

I seriously don't think this means shit. He was in the bar but it was hyperextended big time without a sign of slipping. I disagree with the stoppage but it's really not a huge deal.

Plus you can guarrentee he'll be back and prove himself.



True... but I thought this was supposed to be the match where he proved himself!
grappler0000
6/22/08 12:51:19AM
npayant
6/22/08 12:55:02AM

Posted by grappler0000




Yep... clear tap... and according the rules on UFC.com, that's a submission.

DiabloFreak56
6/22/08 1:00:58AM

Posted by ObsoleteMan

Well, the rules on wikipedia say specifically that one must tap three times:

# Submission: a fighter may admit defeat during a match by:

* tapping three times on his opponent's body;
* tapping three times on the mat or floor;
* verbal announcement.

Personally, I'm really ambivalent about this. I think that Amir was about to win either way, but like the Kimbo fight, I think the ref should've waited for it to be definite. I can understand where Herb Dean was coming from though, he saw one clear tap, and jumped in right away. How many times do you see one clear tap, and then an escape?

EDIT: I'm lazy, and didn't check any further. Both the Nevada and New Jersey website merely say "physical tap", not referencing the number of taps at any point.
http://www.leg.state.nv.us/NAC/NAC-467.html
http://www.state.nj.us/lps/sacb/docs/martial.html




you do know people could write anything on wikipedia.. so if there is another site you can find it on please do cause thats not a vaild refrence
ncordless
6/22/08 1:09:52AM

Posted by DiabloFreak56


Posted by ObsoleteMan

Well, the rules on wikipedia say specifically that one must tap three times:

# Submission: a fighter may admit defeat during a match by:

* tapping three times on his opponent's body;
* tapping three times on the mat or floor;
* verbal announcement.

Personally, I'm really ambivalent about this. I think that Amir was about to win either way, but like the Kimbo fight, I think the ref should've waited for it to be definite. I can understand where Herb Dean was coming from though, he saw one clear tap, and jumped in right away. How many times do you see one clear tap, and then an escape?

EDIT: I'm lazy, and didn't check any further. Both the Nevada and New Jersey website merely say "physical tap", not referencing the number of taps at any point.
http://www.leg.state.nv.us/NAC/NAC-467.html
http://www.state.nj.us/lps/sacb/docs/martial.html




you do know people could write anything on wikipedia.. so if there is another site you can find it on please do cause thats not a vaild refrence



Fail... read the posts... he already did.
Twenty20Dollars
6/22/08 3:17:23AM
cb did the same type of tap during the TUF and didnt complain. cb tapped amir's leg once in the finale and complains about it. be a man cb you tapped, camera's dont lie.
holt8081
6/22/08 5:08:32AM

Posted by Rush

Anyone who thinks that was an official tap (including Dean, Rogan and Goldberg) need to review the UFC's rules.

That call by Herb Dean is about on par with calling a KO finish due to an illegal blow or deducting a point for a legal blow.

Sorry dude the bitch Taped out.
Rush
6/22/08 10:57:07AM
You know I said I was done with this, but I wanted to throw in something.

I remember when Randy tapped on Tito's ass (twice I think) in their fight. Why wasn't that stopped? I cna't remember if Tito was going for a leg lock or ankle lock, but that is besides the point because you don't have to be in a submission hold to tap out.

The wikpedia list was based off of the official UFC page, but the official site has since been changed to be more vague. Hasn't anyone else learned that the more vague a rule is, the less liability they have to enforce it to a "tee"? Now that it has been changed, there is little point arguing this case though.
npayant
6/22/08 11:02:19AM

Posted by Rush

The wikpedia list was based off of the official UFC page, but the official site has since been changed to be more vague. Hasn't anyone else learned that the more vague a rule is, the less liability they have to enforce it to a "tee"? Now that it has been changed, there is little point arguing this case though.



I did not know this...

If this is the case, than that is BS that they changed it so it was more vague. Or maybe the view on that was changed to make it safer... who knows?
tdietel01
6/22/08 11:21:07AM
looked pretty clear that he changed his mind after the first tap. still think it was a good call though. if you wait for a clear 3 or 4 taps then you are gonna have broken limbs and people passing out left and right
Rush
6/22/08 11:39:30AM

Posted by npayant

I did not know this...

If this is the case, than that is BS that they changed it so it was more vague. Or maybe the view on that was changed to make it safer... who knows?




I don't know why they changed it for sure, but I am cynical, so that's why I think it is to make it more vague.

Had Herb Dean said that he made the decision based on the extension of the arm, I would have accepted that. I mean, other than my picks I didn't really care who won TUF7. I didn't even watch the show to like or hate any of these guys. I just don't like to see fights end like this.


Note** I have done some research regarding this.

First I tried using the wayback machine to look at older versions of the ufc website. Some of the older UFC contained the same page of rules (wording wise) going back to 2005.

I looked up the NSAC and NJAC pages on this. They are a little different, but neither indicate what constitutes a tap.



NJAC

i. Tap Out:When a contestant physically uses his hand to indicate that he or she no longer wishes to continue; or ii. Verbal tap out:When a contestant verbally announces to the referee that he or she does not wish to continue;


NSAC

1. Submission by:
(a) Physical tap out.
(b) Verbal tap out.




So I guess I was imagining it. I know the UFC has mentioned the three time rule and I am sure it is not from wiki because I never read the wiki article prior to last night.

I stand corrected, but like the whole definition with striking to the back of the head (as stated in the BJM interview) there seems to be more detailed definitions as to what rules consist of behind the scenes, more than what is in print, which seems a little strange to me. Maybe it's a legal thing.
gartface
6/22/08 3:50:42PM
He tapped but didn't completely submit. He was clearly trying to lock his arms up again to try and slam Amir. Another thing to keep in mind is that Tim Sylvia didn't tap, and that resulted in a broken arm, the same result I see happening if the fight wasn't stopped. Just like Chael Sonnen, he didn't tap, and was pissed off, but his arm was going to get broken regardless.
stock
6/22/08 8:51:05PM
I think both Sylvia and Sonnen had a valid complaint considering they did not tap. However, I don't understand how you can actually tap, and then complain.

It is definitely possible that CB did not mean to tap out, but I don't know a ref in any organization that would not have stopped that.
RMFG_187
6/23/08 5:37:32AM
he tapped once, he was gonna tap twice if Dean didnt grab his arm, and IMO it was a good stoppage. remember Din Thomas vs Jeremy Stephens, Din had im in a full armbar, one of the deepest ever, yet Jeremy says he didn't tap but that was one of the deepest armbars I had ever seen. These things happen all the time, and its hard to say, cuz if your a ref, ur job is enforce the rules, make sure everything is fair and to keep the fighters safe. If u see a dangerous armbar and someone tapped once and was going for a second tap, I think I woulda stopped the fight at the same time.
thevoodooninja
6/24/08 3:30:33AM
cb cant stop bitching because thats what he is............... a bitch
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