taking down a bigger person

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jakeovgy
8/15/07 9:27:46AM
im 16 and 11 stones, 155 pounds i think that is and yesterday was doign some grappling, i have to grapple against people that are way bigger then me and way heavier, i cant lock my arms around them or pick them up, the only thing i could think of doing was dropping to guard, but i cant sweep them and end up on top, so is there any way to take a bigger and way heavier person down more easily
bayonetxwork
8/15/07 9:41:25AM
when grappling a bigger person, thats something youre going to have to deal with. you're probably not going to be able to take him down with a forward motion takedown, or pick him up and slam him. like you said you can either pull guard, or another common technique against a bigger guy is turning the corner off the sprawl. theres many ways you can do this off a takedown/sprawl. when hes sprawled out on you from shooting a forward takedown, get a body lock, and quickly change the directions to get him off balance. you can also attempt to underhook one if his legs(harder to do since he is in a sprawling stance), and use that to change directions and get him off balance. hope it helps.


while we're on this topic, check out this video from the site, its
kenny florian vs. jeff monson in a grappling match. i think it is somewhat relevant to this thread
fedorwins1
8/15/07 9:47:41AM
You could also wait for them to shoot and then sprawl and work from there, that's what I usually do when going against a bigger grappler.
alvin
8/15/07 9:50:57AM
The smaller guys I wrestle with use quickness from thew sprawl to take my back by spinning around on top of it. Ankle picks work well too because you get great leverage. Just be sure you're good at the picks or else the bigger guy will just fall on top of you.

I'd say the worst thing you could do is to go for a double leg, or try to get double underhooks and throw them, unless you're Karo.
juanez13
8/15/07 11:11:24AM
trye Tripping them.... kind of like yushin okami's takedowns ( okami vs franklin 3rd round)
bayonetxwork
8/15/07 11:20:29AM

Posted by juanez13

trye Tripping them.... kind of like yushin okami's takedowns ( okami vs franklin 3rd round)



Trip takedowns are good to an extent but doing them against a bigger guy can end up pretty bad since they can control the clinch. look at lindland vs. fedor, lindland was working for a clinch takedown, but fedor's just too big. if you want to go for a trip don't go for a full body lock/underhooks/double leg, just shoot a single and then sweep the other leg, that IMO works better against the bigger guy, and you don't run the same kind of risk to being reversed.
Jackelope
8/15/07 3:27:45PM

Posted by bayonetxwork


Posted by juanez13

trye Tripping them.... kind of like yushin okami's takedowns ( okami vs franklin 3rd round)



Trip takedowns are good to an extent but doing them against a bigger guy can end up pretty bad since they can control the clinch. look at lindland vs. fedor, lindland was working for a clinch takedown, but fedor's just too big. if you want to go for a trip don't go for a full body lock/underhooks/double leg, just shoot a single and then sweep the other leg, that IMO works better against the bigger guy, and you don't run the same kind of risk to being reversed.



Exactly what I was going to say. Shoot low for a single leg and try to pick off the opposite ankle. Think of it from a purely engineering standpoint. Try to circle around and shoot from as much to the side as possible. If you get the speed of your shoot down quick enough you should be able to scoop a single leg and pick that back ankle turning his body weight even further to the side while he drops back into his sprawl- which should plant him sideways on the mat hopefully with you in a half guard or possibly side mount. Remember, you're smaller, there's less of you to move, so use that speed to your advantage and grab low to pit his balance against him.

Just be careful with your head positioning and definitely don't give him too much of your arm to work with.
Svartorm
8/15/07 11:38:54PM
Tactics change depending on how much bigger we're talking, but all very spot on advice.

My only additions would be that if striking is allowed, try a centerline strike to the face before closing the distance. Regardless of if it connects, this generally rocks the head back and can make a trip attempt easier because their head is already moving in that direction. As the saying goes, where the head moves, the body follows.

Also, if you try something like a trip or sweep, and it doesn't work, GET BACK! A bigger guy can dictate the clinch much easier than the smaller guy, so if you try something and can't get it to work quickly, abort and come at it at another angle, or you might end up on bottom, which is not the place you want to be.

Overall though, the sprawl technique mentioned is one of the best ways to get a big man on the ground in a position you can work with.
ncordless
8/16/07 1:08:05AM
First thing to do try to time his is lead foot, circle your opponent so that you are going away from that leg. As his weight rests on his other leg, shoot for an outside single on the lead leg. Practice makes perfect on a single leg as you must do it it in one fluid motion and be up to your feet before he sprawls. The nice thing about the outside single is its alot hard for him to sprawl with all his weight and flatten you like a pancake.
Waiting for a shot/sprawl from the bigger opponent works, if the bigger guy give up his advantage. In my experience, they are going to look more for clinch throws and more Greco Roman style takedowns.

do not...
Shoot a double leg
Let him get underhooks. If he's really big he can just smash his chin into your chest in a bearhug and bend you over backwards.
Shoot anything where he can sprawl on you
Try a hip toss unless your really good at it.
Fireman's Carry.....lol
fedorwins1
8/16/07 1:54:02PM
"Fireman's Carry.....lol"

Yes, don't do this. It's probably the worst thing to do. You'd be flattened for sure.
akumairon
8/18/07 9:01:59PM
fake a shoot and take his back and then trip him from behind i do that to my 6'10" 260 pound sparing partner (p,s, i wight 220 so its not that big of a diffrence)
TOMMYAYO05
8/19/07 4:04:43AM

Posted by fedorwins1

You could also wait for them to shoot and then sprawl and work from there, that's what I usually do when going against a bigger grappler.

Yeah but if there big enough to avoid your sprawl and slam you anyway your screwed.I tell you what im 6,3 205 and i bench press 365,squat like 5 plates and im a damn good wreslter ive never been beat,but i tell you what i rolled with my friend who is 6,1 155 and he is i think a blue belt in bjj.If your good enough you can use the bigger guys own strenght against him.I slammed my friend a couple times or what not and he just kept pulling guard but every time a muscled my way around he go t me inn a submission,and i kept muscleing my way out until finally he got me in so deep i couldnt muscle out.So just let them muscle you around until you catch them,i also got tired fast while he saved up energy and used it when he had too.
Svartorm
8/19/07 4:13:21AM
Yeah, I was much stronger than my old BJJ instructor, but he'd weather the storm and sub me when I screwed up, or got too muscle weary to avoid a sub. If you've got good wrestling fundamentals, once you learn what BJJ guys bring to the table, you shouldn't have too much trouble controlling them on the ground and avoiding subs.
TOMMYAYO05
8/19/07 5:58:46PM

Posted by Svartorm

Yeah, I was much stronger than my old BJJ instructor, but he'd weather the storm and sub me when I screwed up, or got too muscle weary to avoid a sub. If you've got good wrestling fundamentals, once you learn what BJJ guys bring to the table, you shouldn't have too much trouble controlling them on the ground and avoiding subs.

Exactly they just weather the storm and get tossed around until we get tired or make a mistake,once i learned a few basics of bjj i can handle him now though just because im a way better wreslter, and i know a few tricks in bjj.
Jackelope
8/19/07 11:17:50PM
That old letting them muscle you around for a long time and then capitalizing on the fatigued opponent is what made the Gracie's records so good in the early days of the UFC. Of course, then the rds time limit changed.

Svartorm
8/20/07 1:38:39AM
Its also how Kimo took Royce out of the tournament that year.
gamez0932
8/22/07 6:05:22PM

Posted by Jackelope

That old letting them muscle you around for a long time and then capitalizing on the fatigued opponent is what made the Gracie's records so good in the early days of the UFC. Of course, then the rds time limit changed.


yeah bigger guys are tough
TOMMYAYO05
8/22/07 6:05:53PM

Posted by Svartorm

Its also how Kimo took Royce out of the tournament that year.

The Gracies are sick at it
mrsmiley
8/25/07 10:46:39AM
NOTE: i'm am nowere nea being an awesome pro at MMA but maybe this will help.



The last time I grappled was against my brother in a little tournement me,him,my dad and a bunch of guys he works with got together.At the time I weighed 170 something and my brother was at 260.We got in a clinch and I overpowered him.I simply attribute this to my weight training.I was doing dips in sets of ten.I was lifting 300lbs on an incline bench press (although it wasn't free weight,but a machine).Nonetheless I did all this with extreame cardio for about a year.I did some training with Bas Ruttens Big DVD's of Combat and was able to stay on top of him for a whole 15 minutes before our little backyard rumble reached it's time limit.At the time my brother was training at a local MMA school and I had only been doing weights,cardio,and using the Big DVD's of Combat.

I know my post kind of sucks,but if it helps at all then i'm happy.
Vendetta
9/5/07 8:19:54PM

Posted by bayonetxwork

when grappling a bigger person, thats something youre going to have to deal with. you're probably not going to be able to take him down with a forward motion takedown, or pick him up and slam him. like you said you can either pull guard, or another common technique against a bigger guy is turning the corner off the sprawl. theres many ways you can do this off a takedown/sprawl. when hes sprawled out on you from shooting a forward takedown, get a body lock, and quickly change the directions to get him off balance. you can also attempt to underhook one if his legs(harder to do since he is in a sprawling stance), and use that to change directions and get him off balance. hope it helps.


while we're on this topic, check out this video from the site, its
kenny florian vs. jeff monson in a grappling match. i think it is somewhat relevant to this thread



Great video.
Jackelope
9/5/07 9:54:45PM
Haha, Kenflo never took him down. Just laid back to his guard.

Monson looked like he was gassing.. I bet Kenflo could have slipped something in with a few more minutes
jgtribbett
9/6/07 8:47:36AM
outside singles... i love using them on bigger guys... but you have to be explosive with it
Ultimate_fighter
9/9/07 11:57:06AM
i think u should do what couture did against sylvia. Grab one leg, lift it, and that leaves the other leg open, trip thre open leg, and get on top.
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