Is Tae Kwon Doe a joke?

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ufc88
2/26/08 3:49:30AM
I've never taken it but by watching instructional videos it seems very impractical .. is there anybody who is proficient in TKD because by the look of it I have buddys who just started thai boxing that could KO and TKD black belt

i could be completely wrong so somebody fill me in


ALSO:
where do all of these crazy standup techniques come from because i know theyre certainly not a part of traditional thai boxing:
- spinning back kick
- superman punch
- spinning back fist

Jackelope
2/26/08 4:24:24AM
to pinpoint where all of those techniques come from would be a moot point. Basically because so many different disciplines teach one or another version of them. However, I will say that a spinning back kick and a spinning back fist are both taught in TKD. The superman punch I've never actually seen "taught" in a specific fashion, but ultimately you could call it a dramatic feint of sorts.

I always thought of TKD as a joke. Back in the day before MMA was popular I used to spar at a lot of different competitions. There would be guys from all styles there. I'd always handed the TKD guys their ass, and it was a big running joke around our school (Kenpo school) about how TKD was such a joke. Then came one day in Albuquerque when I got matched up against a TKD guy and he gave me a whole new respect for the sport in the form of the worst and fastest ass kicking I've ever taken.

From that lesson all I took is to never take any style lightly, and to realize that no particular martial art will determine how good of a fighter anyone is. It's that individual and how he handles his style that makes the fighter. So in all fairness to that TKD guy, and any TKD guy out there... I wouldn't ever call that style a joke or impractical. I would say that on a mainstream level as far as MMA and UFC bouts go, it is largely un-represented and many of the techniques are impractical for sanctioned bouts, but there have certainly got to be parts of TKD that could prove dangerous inside the Octagon/Ring/Streets.
ufc88
2/26/08 4:40:28AM
what exactly is kenpo karate i know its what the hack started and its chucks style but do you think you can explain the major differences between that and muay thai
Svartorm
2/26/08 5:05:48AM
Heres a thread on TKD from our Training Forum.

Theres some good info in there concerning the pros and cons of TKD as a form of self-defense and as a combative sports style.

Heres some info on Kempo

That has a bit about Kempo and some links to help you along.

As to the difference between Kempo and Muay Thai, thats like comparing apples and oranges. Kempo is a traditional martial art system, where as Muay Thai, while traditional, is more of a combat sport than anything.

In a combative sense, Kempo is more about rapid-fire hand strikes, strikes to the eyes, groin, throat, and less emphasis on kicks than most forms of karate.

Muay Thai employs knees, elbows, kicks and punches, and utilizes clinchwork, which most striking arts don't cover.
Jackelope
2/26/08 5:06:32AM
My MT experienced is limited, so I couldn't really break it down on an excellent level. I have somewhere between 4 or 5 years of Kenpo experience and about 6 months of MT.. so I'll try. Also note that my MT experience is based on learning MT in a ring fighting sense. One thing I can say for sure is that the two are worlds apart.

Basically MT from my experience is built on standard boxing techniques with the hands like jabs, hooks, uppercuts, crosses, etc. etc. and adds in some of the leg techniques without all the "fanciness" MT seems to me to be broken down into what is effective, easy to apply, works in a ring, and also on the street. MT guys always have hard shins, hard abs, strong punches, and devastating leg kicks. Sagat from street fighter is always who I think of when I think of MT. (No thanks to Mastodon having Sagat as his avatar) MT guys use their shins to kick, like to throw the front "check kick", have a very dangerous clinch with short knees and elbows, and can take just as much of a beating as they can dish out.

In Kenpo Karate you'll learn fancy "techniques" that are a series of movements all combining into one specific technique. Like mini-katas if you will. The word "kenpo" is thrown around like crazy these days, and everyone has their own take on it, but it's basically americanized karate. The big rumor is that it was developed back in the day in Hawaii to deal with the big huge polynesian guys that were kicking the shit out of the fighters in Hawaii because of their strength and size. A lot of Kenpo techniques are throat shots, eye gouges, and groin shots. It's hard and fast, using a lot of forearm blocks, but at the same time not exactly neglecting the softer side by incorporating a couple of mandarin style blocks and parries. Many american kickboxers actually come from a Kenpo background (Chuck Liddell being one of them) and do fairly well seemingly because of the fact that Kenpo also incorporates a lot of punishment taking exercises, the kicks are hard (although not as hard, IMO) and Kenpo has, for the most part, weeded out some of the stupid shit (like spinning tornado kicks and various jumping techniques). Kenpo builds it's kicking base mostly on "wheel kicks" (low roundhouses) front kicks, and side kicks. Which are all ring kickboxing friendly kicks. Although you don't too often see a sidekick used in MMA or in american kickboxing. The stance for Kenpo is also ring friendly because unlike some chinese and japanese styles the horse stance isn't the base for all your movements. It's more the typical one foot back at around a 45 degree angle, chin tucked in, and hands up high. Whereas a lot of TKD guys you'll see tend to keep a completely sideways and hands held low stance (which is friendly for spinning techniques and high kicks). Kung fu guys will stand in a horse stance with the hands on the midline which is very friendly for defending the midline and aggressing in a very linear pattern.

Alright, well.. I could keep going for days here. Most of my experience revolves around kung fu and kenpo, so I won't go off on a tangent there. There are several guys around here that could correct me if I got anything wrong on the MT stuff. Again, I'm only speaking from 6 mos. tops experience in MT, here.
disturbed_fighter
2/26/08 8:31:47AM
i did taekwondo in the 7th grade, i quit in 8th grade to play fball. im in college now and my high kicks r still very high
Tein_Lung
2/26/08 10:09:22AM
TKD itself is not a joke... What most schools teach is a joke... the thing i have seen that happens in alot of schools for it now is they teach it for the point system tounamants which they also don't tach alot of power to hurt someone... i think thats whats makes alot of american TDK a joke...


Personaly i am a big fan of Tai Chi i studied that for a while and its brutal when you get down to what it can do to someone... I have also Studied Jeet Kune Do... and for the basics of defending ones self i think that is one of the better things out there to learn IF you can find the proper teacher of iI.... After all it was designed for street fighting and self defense
gsquat
2/26/08 12:05:56PM
Really I would not consider any martial art a joke. But things like Karate, Tae Kwon Do, and Kung Fu have been proven ineffective via MMA. I know fighters like GSP and Machida are Karate black belts, but they don't actually use Karate to fight... or at least not that often. But back to the matter at hand. Any martial art, even Tae Kwon Do, CAN be just as effective as then next. Its all about how easy it is to impliment the things each respective art teaches. Thats why wrestling, jujitsu, and boxing are most prominent.
fullerene
2/26/08 12:12:56PM
Today's Tae Kwon Do is geared towards Olympic competition. The rules are very restrictive and so it's not especially applicable to MMA. Does that make it a joke? Would you consider track and field a joke? Or swimming or gymnastics? None gurantee success in MMA, but they all require athletic ability and a lot of hard work to compete at the highest levels. And many people would consider winning an Olympic gold medal to be more prestigous than winning a UFC championship belt.

As far as MMA goes you'll find that MT > TKD but TKD > no training. More importantly, guy with TKD training learning MT > guy with no training learning MT.
bullettdodger
2/26/08 3:04:46PM
For those interested, there is a great Korean Import movie called "City of Violence". In "CoV" the main characters use TKD as their primary defence against the thugs of the CoV. Theres even a bit of an homage to the cult classic "The Warriors" if any of you were fans of that. Link
puppetmaster837
2/26/08 4:11:47PM
I dont think the art is a joke, but i think there belt system kind of is. A guy i do BJJ with was telling me how his kids just started, and they are one a 3 year black belt program. I don't think in any martial art a black belt should be earned in 3 years especially at an age that young.
Svartorm
2/27/08 12:35:23AM
Any school that offers a "black belt program" is a joke, no matter how long the program is. If a school promotes based on time spent at the school, rather than proficiency in the art itself, then it doesn't put any stock into turning out decent students.
cmill21
2/27/08 12:46:40AM
I personally think some of the techniques are good to have. It's ok if you combine it with another striking art. Cro Cop's first MA was acctually TKD, and he uses some TKD techniques in his first fight in K-1 against LeBanner.
richieb19
2/27/08 12:49:25AM

Posted by Svartorm

Any school that offers a "black belt program" is a joke, no matter how long the program is. If a school promotes based on time spent at the school, rather than proficiency in the art itself, then it doesn't put any stock into turning out decent students.

Belt systems and gi use outside of judo are a joke to me, copycats... and what's the point of a gi in striking tma's anyways lol.

As I've said several times before, don't buy into the stereotypes that certain styles are the only effective ones. I DO however agree that blackbelts are handed out like candy in TKD, the techniques are more esthetically appealing than practical... however, it is now an Olympic sport. As a base, it is a little limited, however just like other things such as Aikido it doesn't hurt to know.

People who think a certain style is a joke have a weird sense of humor.
Mastodon2
2/27/08 5:05:01AM
TKD is not a joke. If you have no striking experience, someone who knows TKD will keep you well away from them,and kick you from some crazy angle everytime you try to move in close.

However, it is still a sport in most forms that its taught, and at its hearts its a traditional martial art. Muay Thai on the other hand, is a system for causing as much damage to your opponent as quickly as possible without sacrificing yourself.

Muay Thai is derived from Krabai Krabong, the Thai dual swords fighting style. When you consider that the techniques were made for defending against sword
or staff assaults, you see why there is no flash or fancy. No wasted movement, nothing for show, nothing for breaking boards or scoring points. It's allabout damage.

Muay Thai teaches you to defend yourself while moving in to cause damage, and its a short range style than TKD. While TKD uses a lot of leaping and lancing kicks to attack from long range, Muay Thai doesnt. I have axe kicks and some lancing kicks in my arsenal, but if I was fighting a TKD guy I would just keep a tight defence, move in close and start hitting them with elbows and knees,and any Thai boxer would do the same.

TKD isn't a joke, but it sure as hell aint Muay Thai!
richieb19
2/27/08 1:00:41PM
If you look past the divisions in teachings, it can be very simply put that the body just moves in certain ways. No specific style is responsible for a high kick or a kneebar. Just as the divide in nations of the world, they are populated by people. And though these people may be different in stature, color and tongue, they are still human beings all as one in the bigger picture. They all eat, sleep and die. Such is also held true in the various martial arts, whether they are under the banner of being an art, style or sport. Defensive or offensive in natue. And albeit they all offer a degree of refinement to certain skillests, they all derive from simple grappling and striking mechanics innate in everyone. The different combat styles seen across the world are as unique as the various religions practiced everywhere. Some are more popular, and practiced by larger numbers, while some are smaller. But trying to prove which is right or wrong is not only moot but insulting, just as in martial arts. As Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do philosophy explains: "Use no art as an art. Use what works and throw out what doesn't. Be like water". There is no definition for a complete fighter, not will there ever be. Everyone will have preferences even at the most elite levels. In summary, no style is better. And albeit some will offer a larger range of techniques, none are complete. The true martial artist is unique, and tells his story based on his own style, not one passed down and tought to him.






Short form: Go with judo!

lol jk