submission artists

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skinnyb
8/31/07 8:51:29PM
who is the best submission artist of all time in mma?

Im not to sure but it might be one of these
Frank Mir in his prime,jeff monson,big nog,ken shamrock,frank shamrock,bobalu,bj penn,mayhem miller,royce gracie.


Let me know




juanez13
8/31/07 9:02:38PM
BJ penn, Aoki, basically almost every gracie, Big nog Is the best Heavyweight BJJ wizzard
Ultimate_fighter
8/31/07 9:23:28PM
Severn had some powerful subs...

But i say the top guys are penn, big nog, gracies, uhhh,, shamrock in his prime, frank shamrock, and mir in his prime...
The_Grim_Reaper
8/31/07 10:27:54PM
Rickson Gracie
Omega
8/31/07 11:07:14PM

Posted by Ultimate_fighter

Severn had some powerful subs...

But i say the top guys are penn, big nog, gracies, uhhh,, shamrock in his prime, frank shamrock, and mir in his prime...



Severn?

A quote from the man himself "Never really said I knew about submissions I'm mostly a wrestler through and through".
richieb19
8/31/07 11:43:17PM
I'm basking in the Shamrock love...

Finally!!!

TOMMYAYO05
9/1/07 12:20:15AM
Bj Penn,Aoki,Big Nog,Rickson Gracie,Royce Gracie,Royler Gracie,Roger Gracie,ummmmm Renzo Gracie.yeah pretty much all the gracies are the shit.
Jackelope
9/1/07 3:07:32PM
There's absolutely no denying the fact that the most dominant submission specialists in UFC history were the Gracies. Unless you don't count chokes as submissions, then Rickson would be put in a different category haha
loonytnt
9/1/07 5:43:12PM
no1 thinks matt hughs got any BJJ?? i vote both matts,the two coaches are both great at BBJ sirra and hughs
Mastodon2
9/1/07 6:54:00PM
Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira gets my vote. Even though he is a big man, his speed and agility when rolling around the mat is unreal. He goes for submissions that no one else sees. They don't call him the submission magician for nothing!


Carlos Newton is a name we hear enough of these days, he gets overlooked by many fans, but his submissions were good, his whole ground game overall imo was fantastic, its a shame he had so much bad luck in his career, getting bummed out of the title when Matt Hughes passed out (should have been a no contest) and when Daiju Takase somehow won a split decision over him on Pride Bushido 3, in what was imo the baffling piece of judging I've ever seen.

BJ Penn and Hidehiko Yoshida also get a mention, they are both fantastic on the ground.
jomatty
9/2/07 2:46:12AM
ken shamrock lol. he has decent leg locks, aside from that i hope you guys are kidding. mir is good, but he also is nowhere near the top guys. the best is prob. roger gracie imo although he is new to mma. jacare too although he is new as well. rickson probably had the best arm bars ever in mma. i dont remember seeing him miss one.
richieb19
9/2/07 10:20:31AM

Posted by jomatty

ken shamrock lol. he has decent leg locks, aside from that i hope you guys are kidding.



Wrong.
Boo_Radley21
9/2/07 12:48:03PM
Tank Abbott!!!!
jomatty
9/2/07 12:53:26PM
am i wrong about his leglocks or his other submissions, because surely you dont think ken shamrock is anywhere near the top of the heap when it comes to submissions. he himself has said that he is a leg lock guy that likes to brawl and doesnt really do jiujitsu. sure he slaps on the occasional kimura or rnc but that does not mean he belongs in the discussion of the best submission artists.

please elaborate on why i am wrong about ken shamrock not being a top submission guy.

mrsmiley
9/2/07 1:34:29PM
I think Nogueira is amazing at submissions.Guys like him and Rickson Gracie understand and are able to pull off,the great setups that allow for the submissions.
richieb19
9/2/07 1:39:36PM

Posted by jomatty

am i wrong about his leglocks or his other submissions, because surely you dont think ken shamrock is anywhere near the top of the heap when it comes to submissions. he himself has said that he is a leg lock guy that likes to brawl and doesnt really do jiujitsu. sure he slaps on the occasional kimura or rnc but that does not mean he belongs in the discussion of the best submission artists.

please elaborate on why i am wrong about ken shamrock not being a top submission guy.


I am not claiming by any means that he is the greatest submission fighter in MMA, however I do think you are completely wrong in his assessment and you're overall view of what a "submission artist" in MMA really is. First of all let me just touch on the quote that came directly from his own mouth, yes he is a leglock guy and a brawler, that's how he fights, and that's how he's always fought, but it's not what he's limited to. He has always had a very complete submission game, and has proved it on many occasions. He has deep roots in Japan, where he learned from the actual best submission artist in MMA, Masakatsu Funaki (and Minoru Suzuki). When he said he doesn't really do Jiu Jitsu, it's because he doesn't, but I don't understand why everyone's come to a false realization that if you don't train in BJJ, you don't know submissions... take Josh Barnett and Kazushi Sakuraba as examples, no BJJ training whatsoever. Ken Shamrock does have one glaring weakness on the mat though, and thats his offense in guard position, like alot of Catch Wrestlers he relies on scrambling and trying to get top position where he is stronger, this lands him into trouble as seen with the Tito matches. So there you have it, greatest submission fighter in MMA, no... but definately worth mention.
fullfighting
9/2/07 3:33:28PM
Anyone with the last name Gracie works for me. Probably Royce IMO.
Mei-Mei
9/2/07 4:31:34PM
I was watching a Pride show once and there was a guy, sorry I do not know his name, who the commentators said was a triangle wizard. Sure enough this fighter was always looking for the triangle choke from many different positions. He won the fight I was watching with a nice triangle. He may have been a one dimentional submission guy but he was a triangle artist and I enjoyed watching that fight.
richieb19
9/2/07 5:01:43PM

Posted by Mei-Mei

I was watching a Pride show once and there was a guy, sorry I do not know his name, who the commentators said was a triangle wizard. Sure enough this fighter was always looking for the triangle choke from many different positions. He won the fight I was watching with a nice triangle. He may have been a one dimentional submission guy but he was a triangle artist and I enjoyed watching that fight.

The only guy that I can think of off hand who's been called a "triangle wizard" would be Carlos Newton. Fabiano Iha has been called the king of the armbar.
Mei-Mei
9/2/07 5:21:46PM
He was a Japanese fighter I believe
jomatty
9/3/07 1:20:13AM
your almost certainly thinking of aoki and he is one of the top submission guys.

as far as ken shamrock goes we will just have to agree to disagree about whether ken shamrock belongs on a list of top submission artists. i mean that not in a disrespectful way, just my opinion. i suppose that its obvious that ken shamrock has a catch wrestling background since he is a shooto guy, i just never really think of him as a catch wrestler (that is my mistake). im not one of the guys that thinks you need bjj to be a good submission guy but if your not trained in bjj, catch wrestling, sambo, or judo ne waza i think you are gonna have a hard time competing with the top guys. im still (with respect) sticking with my assesment that ken shamrock is not a top submission artist.
richieb19
9/3/07 1:50:54AM

Posted by jomatty

your almost certainly thinking of aoki and he is one of the top submission guys.

as far as ken shamrock goes we will just have to agree to disagree about whether ken shamrock belongs on a list of top submission artists. i mean that not in a disrespectful way, just my opinion. i suppose that its obvious that ken shamrock has a catch wrestling background since he is a shooto guy, i just never really think of him as a catch wrestler (that is my mistake). im not one of the guys that thinks you need bjj to be a good submission guy but if your not trained in bjj, catch wrestling, sambo, or judo ne waza i think you are gonna have a hard time competing with the top guys. im still (with respect) sticking with my assesment that ken shamrock is not a top submission artist.

I will respectfully agree with that, I think he's worth mention with 22 out of 27 wins coming by submission, however there are better, and will always be better with time to come.

ps. He's not a shooto guy... Pancrase...
Vietnamese_Guy
9/3/07 1:59:48AM
Rickson armbars this thread :awesome:
richieb19
9/3/07 2:05:41AM

Posted by Vietnamese_Guy

Rickson armbars this thread :awesome:

Rickson Gracie is the most overrated person I've ever known...

Pawel Nastula >>>>> Rickson Gracie
Jackelope
9/3/07 6:20:01AM
Hard to deny Rickson's record even just going by the 11-0 sherdog has listed. Almost every fight ended by submission in the first couple minutes of the first round. Sure the competition wasn't as stiff back then, but he did dominate those whom he competed against.

I totally forgot to put Shinya on my post. Definitely worth a mention although he's got a long future ahead of him
Cladrix
9/3/07 10:35:42PM
Bassically any Gracie, Aoki, BJ, Big Nog, Carlos Newton, and many others
Rush
9/4/07 9:20:37PM
Here are some fun stats. You probably should ignore Fulton as he is up there from sheer volume, then again so is Horn and Severn, but I would consider Horn a pretty good submission guy.

HIGHEST SUBMISSION WINS
FIGHTER TOTAL
Travis Fulton 119
Dan Severn 49
Jeremy Horn 49
Adrian Serrano 35
Masakatsu Funaki 33
Dennis Reed 32
Joe Doerksen 31
Shannon Ritch 30
Clayton Miller 29
Dennis Hallman 28

HIGHEST TRIANGLE CHOKE WINS
FIGHTER TOTAL
Evan Tanner 9
Travis Fulton 8
Vitor Ribeiro 7
Jutaro Nakao 7
Cole Escovedo 7
Joe Pierson 7
Jason Dent 6
Jeremy Horn 6
Joe Doerksen 6
Miguel Torres 6
Alex Owen 6
Akbarh Arreola 6

HIGHEST REAR NAKED CHOKE WINS
FIGHTER TOTAL
Travis Fulton 19
John Strawn 15
Jeremy Horn 14
Dennis Hallman 11
Josh Stamp 11
Dan Severn 10
Joe Doerksen 9
Brian Fulton 9
Martin Malkhasyan 9
Matt Horwich 9

HIGHEST LEGLOCK WINS
FIGHTER TOTAL
Ikuhisa Minowa 11
Johnathan Ivy 11
Mikhail Illoukhine 9
Yuki Kondo 7
Anthony Macias 6
Shannon Ritch 6
Naoya Uematsu 6
Masakatsu Funaki 5
John Renken 5
Rumina Sato 5
Ken Shamrock 5
Sanae Kikuta 5
James Edson Berto 5

HIGHEST CHOKE WINS
FIGHTER TOTAL
Travis Fulton 42
Jeremy Horn 27
Dennis Hallman 19
John Strawn 19
Dan Severn 15
Adrian Serrano 14
Joe Doerksen 14
Edwin Dewees 14
Drew Fickett 14
Brian Fulton 14

HIGHEST KNEEBAR WINS
FIGHTER TOTAL
Johnathan Ivy 4
Shane Johnson 3
Minoru Suzuki 3
Oleg Taktarov 3
Ken Shamrock 2
Anthony Macias 2
Pete Williams 2
Ikuhisa Minowa 2
Yuki Kondo 2
Frank Shamrock 2
Larry Parker 2
John Renken 2
Kenji Kawaguchi 2
Zee Vjesalicu 2
Brian Ikagami 2
Takehiro Murahama 2
Igor Araujo 2

HIGHEST GUILLOTINE CHOKE WINS
FIGHTER TOTAL
Travis Fulton 12
Alexandre Fran├ža Nogueira 7
Brian Dunn 7
Dan Croonquist 7
Yasuhito Namekawa 5
Allister Overeem 5
Dennis Hallman 4
Tony Fryklund 4
Anthony Macias 4
Flavio Luiz Moura 4
Dave Menne 4
Tyrone Roberts 4
Satoru Kitaoka 4
Vern Jefferson 4
Valentijn Overeem 4
Brian Fulton 4
Jorge Gurgel 4
Vincent Latoel 4
Kyle Olsen 4
Rory Prazak 4
Amanda Buckner 4
Terry McDougall 4
Dennis Davis 4
Josh Haynes 4
Gesias Calvancanti 4
Rob Kimmons 4
Rush
9/4/07 9:27:37PM
I know his record doesn't show it, but what do you guys think of Arona? I know he is the only undefeated ADCC, but that doesn't necessarily mean he is a submission artist. Then again, you have to know submissions to avoid them too and he has never been subbed.
Jackelope
9/5/07 2:55:19AM
Jeremy Horn is definitely a main man of submissions. Negative props to myself for not mentioning him earlier.

It's hard to call it really, though. Since a lot of the submission guys mentioned (gracies, for example) have so many wins in bouts that aren't recognized by MMA stats. Even Joe Stevenson has something like 107 submission match victories I think they were saying when he and Pellegrino were fighting. Pellegrino was around the same or even more. Both of those guys are young as hell, too.

Then you've got guys like Rickson Gracie (people love him or hate him) who don't even show up on those stats because he's only had 11 fights tracked by Sherdog. When in real life I'm sure the guy has tapped 100s of people.

Shinya Aoki should definitely be considered at least an up and coming great of submissions. That guy's ground game is so much fun to watch. I REALLY, REALLY want to see him in the UFC.

On a side note I'm surprised at the low amount of triangle chokes, actually. The guillotine shouldn't even be mentioned on this thread since it's ... just... bah! I'm not going to go there and start a flame war. I hate Guillotines.

Rush
9/5/07 11:01:29AM

Posted by Jackelope

On a side note I'm surprised at the low amount of triangle chokes, actually. The guillotine shouldn't even be mentioned on this thread since it's ... just... bah! I'm not going to go there and start a flame war. I hate Guillotines.





I used to think it was a submission for "idiots" but they are tough to pull off. If you don't get it right you risk losing everything in your arm, which puts you at risk of getting pounded or subbed.

Any fool can try a guillotine, but it takes a person that knows what they are doing to either not waste their energy or get slammed in the process.
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