The strange case of B.J. Penn.

MMAPlayground.com » MMA General » UFC Forum » The strange case of B.J. Penn.
AchillesHeel
2/16/07 8:29:34PM
I was browsing the Top 10 Rankings that are being assembled here, and I noticed something odd: B.J. is ranked #8 on the P4P list, #4 on the Welterweight list, and #6 on the Lightweight list.

Penn is rated ahead of Matt Hughes on the "P4P" list (Hughes is 10th), but is behind Hughes on the Welterweight list. On the Lightweights list, Penn is ranked behind Aoki, Sherk, Sakurai, and Melendez, none of whom appear on the "P4P" list at all. None of that math makes any sense, and yet it's hard to say that people are completely up a tree.

From reading comments around the web, Penn seems to draw a lot of ire for having lost his last two fights. That those fights were against two of the best fighters in the sport - guys generally regarded as #1 & #2 in the division - and that Penn very nearly won both of those fights aren't relevant factors for everyone. For some people, a loss is a loss, and if you're 0-2 you can't be considered "good", sorry kid, better luck next time.

There's also the weight class dilemma. Personally, I rate B.J. as the #2 Lightweight in the world right now, (almost) sight unseen. Some of you will understandably call me a whack-job for rating him so highly in a division he hasn't touched in a long time. Personally, I think he'd take guys like Kawajiri and Melendez to school. Of course, I also rate B.J. as the 3rd-best Welterweight. Want to break Diego's winning streak? Give him to B.J.

I'm probably making some people insane right about now, aren't I?

Added confusion comes from the new and casual UFC fans I talked about in the other thread. B.J.'s absence from the UFC corresponded neatly with the explosion in popularity brought on by The Ultimate Fighter. By the time of B.J.'s return to the Octagon, half the audience had never heard of him before.

It wasn't long ago that people talked about Penn as the best fighter in the world, pound-for-pound. Of course, things have moved very fast in this sport. And I think they'll continue to move fast. I expect Penn to be the UFC Lightweight champion sometime next Autumn, after he wraps up Pulver.

Oh, and Penn has already punked Gomi once; I think he could do it again. Now who wouldn't want to see that fight?
hippysmacker
2/16/07 8:34:44PM
I think Bj is desreving of his ranking's for now. Still, it would be great to see him stay in shape and completely dedicate himself to fighting ( and hard core training)full time. My biggest fear for him is that he could end up like Vitor. I beleive Vitor's problem's are mental however. Bj's are motivation IMO. He has he ability to be the best at 2 weight classes to me,and I hope he dedicates himself to that purpose.
DirtySouthBoss
2/16/07 8:37:41PM
To me BJ is the best in the world Pound 4 Pound. He has Gassed in his last 2 fights but the fact thst he is considered in the top 3 for WW only solidifies the fact that he can challange for 150 whenever he wants to. He has beaten Gomi and given GSP the best fight of his life.
OB_Juan
2/16/07 8:56:07PM
I started a similar thread in the Lounge since rankings encompass more than just Pride and UFC.

http://www.mmaplayground.com/forums/topic1504-1.html

As for most of your logic, I think it's terribly flawed. Just because you THINK such and such fighter is capable of beating whomever doesn't mean jack.

hippysmacker
2/16/07 9:04:38PM

Posted by OB_Juan

I started a similar thread in the Lounge since rankings encompass more than just Pride and UFC.

http://www.mmaplayground.com/forums/topic1504-1.html

As for most of your logic, I think it's terribly flawed. Just because you THINK such and such fighter is capable of beating whomever doesn't mean jack.




That's your opinion. These are just opinions. A fact would be saying water is wet. No matter who has ( or hasn't) flawed logic it's not worth getting riled up about . Enjoy the discussions, but keep it good fun. Thanks
MMA
2/16/07 9:05:22PM
I don't understand why BJ is ranked #8 for (current) P4P and in both welter- and lightweight division. He moved down to lightweight so he should be considered a lightweight fighter.

Although Penn has the potential to be a top P4P fighter, he has not shown us this in his latest fights. I will admit that he came very close to winning his recent fights, but the fact of the matter is that he lost.

Oh, and for people who think Penn is out of shape, he is not. He only gassed in the St. Pierre fight. His ribs got fractured in the Hughes fight, making it unbearable to breathe, so he did not gas.
OB_Juan
2/16/07 9:13:36PM

Posted by MMA

I don't understand why BJ is ranked #8 for (current) P4P and in both welter- and lightweight division. He moved down to lightweight so he should be considered a lightweight fighter.

Although Penn has the potential to be a top P4P fighter, he has not shown us this in his latest fights. I will admit that he came very close to winning his recent fights, but the fact of the matter is that he lost.

Oh, and for people who think Penn is out of shape, he is not. He only gassed in the St. Pierre fight. His ribs got fractured in the Hughes fight, making it unbearable to breathe, so he did not gas.



I agree but I kind of disagree at the same time. IMO he shouldn't be considered a LW fighter until he actually competes there again. Not just because it's been announced that he is "supposed" to be there. IMO he's a WW until he actually makes 155 lbs and gets another fight under his belt in which case he would no longer be considered for WW rankings.

A lot of fighters change weights. Hell, Shinya Aoki is probably more deserving to be ranked in EITHER division than BJ is.

As for the P4P, those don't really mean a whole lot IMO. That kind of thing is much more SUBjective than divisional rankings which should be primarily OBjective or based on recent accomplishments.
OB_Juan
2/16/07 9:14:46PM

Posted by hippysmacker


Posted by OB_Juan

I started a similar thread in the Lounge since rankings encompass more than just Pride and UFC.

http://www.mmaplayground.com/forums/topic1504-1.html

As for most of your logic, I think it's terribly flawed. Just because you THINK such and such fighter is capable of beating whomever doesn't mean jack.




That's your opinion. These are just opinions. A fact would be saying water is wet. No matter who has ( or hasn't) flawed logic it's not worth getting riled up about . Enjoy the discussions, but keep it good fun. Thanks



Oh, I AM having fun, man. I'm a rankings nut.
hippysmacker
2/16/07 9:15:30PM
LOL, it's all good then.
OB_Juan
2/16/07 9:22:37PM

Posted by hippysmacker

LOL, it's all good then.



Yeah man. Rankings are something I could banter about for hours. Actually, I HAVE bantered about rankings for hours. Sometimes if I sound harsh it's only because I'm passionate about it. Nothing personal to anybody.
Reignofterror
2/16/07 10:26:58PM
BJ still is an excellent fighter but 3 years ago he was something else, he was a monster. His vicious beating over Gomi, and his win over Hughes was evidence in of itself but I hope he rebounds, seems like a really cool guy.
OB_Juan
2/16/07 10:54:36PM

Posted by Reignofterror

BJ still is an excellent fighter but 3 years ago he was something else, he was a monster. His vicious beating over Gomi, and his win over Hughes was evidence in of itself but I hope he rebounds, seems like a really cool guy.



But do you think he deserves his current rankings?

I also really like BJ. There are very few fighters on the planet w/ his natural abilities. The nickname "The Prodigy" is absolutely perfect for him. The fact is he hasn't competed at LW since 2003 and hasn't won at WW since 2004.

The dude could certainly be a threat at either weight but he needs to get his act together and stick to one division and get some solid wins before being ranked as such. That is all I am saying.
DirtySouthBoss
2/16/07 11:41:11PM
The fact that BJ gets the respect that he does now has to stand for something. I know that endurence has been an issue but overall its hard to argue about how he gets down. Hit striking and flexability is above and beyond everyone in WW and LW. I feel that if you count his recent loses then you are disrespecting his true talent.
OB_Juan
2/17/07 3:46:31AM

Posted by DirtySouthBoss

The fact that BJ gets the respect that he does now has to stand for something. I know that endurence has been an issue but overall its hard to argue about how he gets down. Hit striking and flexability is above and beyond everyone in WW and LW. I feel that if you count his recent loses then you are disrespecting his true talent.



It's not about his recent losses. When is the last time he got a freakin win in either div? It's been YEARS. Point is he's ranked in 2 divisions that are full of talented fighters that have proven themselves many times over but he's still getting love from wins 3 or 4 years ago. That's just WRONG and delusional. Might as well rank Rickson as the #1 HW AND P4P in that case.

I think he COULD be ranked in either div but right now there's absolutely no proof to justify it. In the meantime it discredits fighters that have been busting their asses bating good competition in said divisions.
Savy
2/17/07 4:39:04AM
The BJ Penn dilemma is intersting.
In the welterweight division, one must rank him below Hughes and GSP because of the losses.
Yes, he did defeat Gomi, the hands down best lightweight fighter in the world, but nowadays BJ is fighting as a welterweight, so that is where we must rank him.
I believe that a well-conditioned BJ will decisively beat any fighter, welter or lightweight.
That is why he is so high on my P4P list.
BJ may be a jerk for not being conditioned enough for his last few fights. But you cannot deny his skills. No legitimate ground fighter has shown the striking prowess that BJ has.
His BJJ skills are all to obvious. Besides Nogueira, no BJJ fighter has presented such threatening boxing skills.
Just look at Mat Hughes. Hughes picks EVERYONE up. If he gets your leg, you will end up on your back. Hughes has done that to so many string fighter. But when you see Hughes get BJ's leg, and then BJ dance and avoid the take down so well.... Nobody has hips like BJ.
Trapt1nw0nder
2/17/07 5:08:26AM

Posted by hippysmacker

I think Bj is desreving of his ranking's for now. Still, it would be great to see him stay in shape and completely dedicate himself to fighting ( and hard core training)full time. My biggest fear for him is that he could end up like Vitor. I beleive Vitor's problem's are mental however. Bj's are motivation IMO. He has he ability to be the best at 2 weight classes to me,and I hope he dedicates himself to that purpose.



I AGREE.....if BJ would commit himself to training hard he can be champ in both LW and WW.....

Tito ortiz and Bj Penn are my 2 favorite fighters.....and seeing UFC 63...Penn vs Hughes i was touched when i saw Tito ortiz in the crowd holding up a BJ penn T-shirt supporting penn and cheering for him...which got me thinking......"BJ should train with tito and work on his cardio"

bj penn must be tito's fav fighter,cuz i have never seen him support anyone who is not in their team

BJ needs to start training and not relay too much on his skill,power...and his caveman theory..
Reignofterror
2/17/07 1:40:56PM

Posted by OB_Juan


Posted by Reignofterror

BJ still is an excellent fighter but 3 years ago he was something else, he was a monster. His vicious beating over Gomi, and his win over Hughes was evidence in of itself but I hope he rebounds, seems like a really cool guy.



But do you think he deserves his current rankings?

I also really like BJ. There are very few fighters on the planet w/ his natural abilities. The nickname "The Prodigy" is absolutely perfect for him. The fact is he hasn't competed at LW since 2003 and hasn't won at WW since 2004.

The dude could certainly be a threat at either weight but he needs to get his act together and stick to one division and get some solid wins before being ranked as such. That is all I am saying.



I think BJ is definetly deserving of the ranks he has been given even though they do seem outdated. BJ's one of those "come-and-go" fighters, and unfortunately he got injured in the Hughes fight which caused an even longer absence from fighting. I'm really hoping that the TV show can help Bj rebound, and get his killer instinct back because if for the fight that he gave Hughes with what many people thought was terrible conditioning it makes you wonder how much better BJ could be when he's off of his daily dose of donuts and pillsbury toaster strudels. It's like what GSP said about being a great fighter but not having good conditioning "it's like putting a great race car driver, into a shitty car".
OB_Juan
2/17/07 2:25:44PM
So what happens to Penn if he should lose to Pulver again (although the odds of that are about the same as Carmen Electra begging to give me a blowjob)? Would you continue to rank him in both divs despite not having won in either for 3 or 4 years but because he has "potential for greatness"? I totally understand why they have this icon now.
shackle
2/17/07 7:16:43PM
there is no logic behind saying bj penn is one of the best out of 10 p4p.

Sorry it's just he has a lot of fans, and they just don't won't to admit he isn't p4p one of the best. Nutthugging at it's finest my friends.

Gassing out isn't a excuse, and you can't be the best if you gas out cause it's part of being "the best"

Bj just has a great internet reputation. Unlike some of the GREAT fighters getting ranked low cause people just don't like them.

Bj is a great figher, but p4p the best you have to be kidding right now with his last loses there is no reason why he should be on that list until he makes a great come back.

Jeffanori-Gomi
2/17/07 9:18:29PM

Posted by Savy
Nobody has hips like BJ.



I think Aoki has hips like BJ. BJ is the best p4p fighter IMO and all he has to work on is cardio to become a champ then I foresee him upsetting any lw or ww title holder in the near future.
MattHughes
2/17/07 10:51:00PM
You would be a fool to say BJ Penn isnt a great fighter, but during 05-06 Penn went 1-3. Theres no doubt penn can get in the top 3-5 for P4P in the future. I havn't made my own list of top 10 P4P so I cant even tell you if he deserves what spot hes at but IMO he won't ever beat GSP and he will win the LW title.
OB_Juan
2/18/07 1:21:22AM

Posted by shackle

there is no logic behind saying bj penn is one of the best out of 10 p4p.

Sorry it's just he has a lot of fans, and they just don't won't to admit he isn't p4p one of the best. Nutthugging at it's finest my friends.

Gassing out isn't a excuse, and you can't be the best if you gas out cause it's part of being "the best"

Bj just has a great internet reputation. Unlike some of the GREAT fighters getting ranked low cause people just don't like them.

Bj is a great figher, but p4p the best you have to be kidding right now with his last loses there is no reason why he should be on that list until he makes a great come back.




P4P is the only class BJ could comprehensively even be ranked. Divisional rankings should be much more objective and less subjective rankings. No friggin wayhe should be ranked at either LW or WW based on his recent wins.
jocksmall
2/18/07 11:32:49AM
i have always contended that bj's conditioning is what beats him. he is'nt in as good of shape as the poeple he fights. he would have beaten matt and gsp had he been in good shape. some believe that the ufc round voting system isnt the best for mma because bj beat up gsp in round one then gsp won round 2 and 3 causing little damage and won the fight. but having said that bj has continually come to fight out of shape so we must accept that it is part of his total package untill he decides to work harder.as far as the ranking poeple give him too much credit i believe they are voting for unfullfilled potential
pv3Hpv3p
2/18/07 3:12:46PM
It's hard to look at P4P rankings because they are so abstract...

I understand that p4p rankings are a testiment to a fighters skills not their size, but it is really hard to picture...

Would a 145lbs Fedor beat KID??

Could a 230lbs KID beat Fedor??

I only bring up this point because it illustrates why it is so easy to put BJ on P4P rankings, because he takes out some of the abstractions...

BJ started his career as a LW and has fought all the way up to LHW since... And if at one time you owned the LW div, then the WW division, and have still proven that you can win at MW and even more so made a good account for yourself at LHW...

BJ takes out the abstract view of the pound for pound fighter and tries to show real results....

IMO, That is more than can be said for a lot of fighters, and should count for something...
OB_Juan
2/18/07 4:38:01PM

Posted by pv3Hpv3p

It's hard to look at P4P rankings because they are so abstract...

I understand that p4p rankings are a testiment to a fighters skills not their size, but it is really hard to picture...

Would a 145lbs Fedor beat KID??

Could a 230lbs KID beat Fedor??

I only bring up this point because it illustrates why it is so easy to put BJ on P4P rankings, because he takes out some of the abstractions...

BJ started his career as a LW and has fought all the way up to LHW since... And if at one time you owned the LW div, then the WW division, and have still proven that you can win at MW and even more so made a good account for yourself at LHW...

BJ takes out the abstract view of the pound for pound fighter and tries to show real results....

IMO, That is more than can be said for a lot of fighters, and should count for something...



I pretty much agree. Also just the fact that BJ had the balls to move up and fight bigger guys. Matt Hughes never fights out of his weight class (unless it's against a one dimensional dinosaur). But I couldn't see Hughes taking on a guy like Lyoto.
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