the standup and point deduction in the mir/lesnar fight

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jomatty
2/3/08 1:39:45PM
what do you guys think of that stand up and point deduction? personally i think it was a little anal as that sort of thing happens in most fights to some degree or another and it usually is let go. if they are going to start being this strict and taking away points and standing up fights they need to do it a lot more across the board if you ask me.

what did you guys think?
EliasG
2/3/08 1:43:49PM
i thought it was a little quick but Lesnar was like Jojo the dancing monkey. He was all crazy excited when Mir fell down and threw a bunch of rabbit punches. There is NO WAY he could have kept up his frenetic out of control pace. I was not surprised that he was submitted the way he was. He was agressive but very reckless---not unlike when he fought the other guys i've seen him fight on Bodog and against that korean guy.
AchillesHeel
2/3/08 1:51:35PM
I didn't think it was "anal", and didn't think the referee should have let it go. However, Lesnar should have gotten a warning, not a point deduction. It didn't matter in the end, of course, but I actually wonder if the ref violated a rule there.
tuvok500
2/3/08 1:53:57PM
The ref did his job, Lesnar probably received a lot of instructions in the lockeroom by the ref and he knew the rules.

Also, being hit in the back of the head by a 145 guy and being hit in the back of the head by a 265 guy is totally different, i mean, you can not train your head to receive big shoot in the back like you can do with your habs, and the ref can give a lot of warning to a small 145 guy before deducting a point because he hit less harder but you can not receive many punch in the back of the head by a 265 guy without being stunt and that's why the ref was severe yesterday i think.



cowcatcher
2/3/08 1:55:35PM
it was garbage plain and simple. brock thought he won the fight when he got stood up, and me and my friends didnt know what the hell was going on. lesnar was wild and didnt look too polished, but ive got to say, he did look pretty good for all but 15 seconds of the fight, i think he might have a future in this sport unless he decides to quit like he has in his other ventures. me and my friends stood and cheered the entire fight and anyone that makes me do that is someone id pay to see again.
SmileR
2/3/08 1:56:45PM
Maybe the point deduction was a bit excessive but he was warned just a few seconds before they were stood up to stop punching to the back of the head.
But if your going to keep hitting the back of some ones head even after you've just been warned its going to happen.

I'd put it down to his inexperience and first fight nerves. I never bothered watching his first fight but he went at Mir like rocket! I think he was oblivious to anything anyone was saying to him.

That being said I was seriously impressed by Brocks speed! Give him a few more years and a good fight camp and he could be a force to be reckoned with at HW.


Gladiator
2/3/08 1:57:26PM
personally i think that u probably picked lesnar to win and thought he was going to finish the fight from that position, which he probably would have. but rules are rules and if brock lesnar, being the freak of a beast that he is, is hitting someone in the back of the head then the ref better stop the fight before someome gets killed. i dont know if any of u saw the frank shamrock vs renzo gracie fight, but frank hit renzo in the back of the head with a knee on the ground and it messed renzo up bad! IMO lesnars haymakerground'n'pouner is much worse than frank's knee. good call by the ref IMO
cowcatcher
2/3/08 1:59:26PM

Posted by Gladiator

personally i think that u probably picked lesnar to win and thought he was going to finish the fight from that position, which he probably would have. but rules are rules and if brock lesnar, being the freak of a beast that he is, is hitting someone in the back of the head then the ref better stop the fight before someome gets killed. i dont know if any of u saw the frank shamrock vs renzo gracie fight, but frank hit renzo in the back of the head with a knee on the ground and it messed renzo up bad! IMO lesnars haymakerground'n'pouner is much worse than frank's knee. good call by the ref IMO



watch the replay, he hit him once as frnk turned into it, it wasnt like it was repeated rabbit punches. im not going to say the fix was in or anything, but the stoppage reaked of the WWF
gartface
2/3/08 1:59:38PM
Mustachagatti didn't seem too sure, he ASKED Mir if Lesnar hit him in the back of the head. And of course Frank is going to comply, seeing as he was getting dominated. He got that breather, still got dominated, and was pretty fortunate that Lesnar left that leg out there like that.
gartface
2/3/08 2:01:58PM

Posted by Gladiator

personally i think that u probably picked lesnar to win and thought he was going to finish the fight from that position, which he probably would have. but rules are rules and if brock lesnar, being the freak of a beast that he is, is hitting someone in the back of the head then the ref better stop the fight before someome gets killed. i dont know if any of u saw the frank shamrock vs renzo gracie fight, but frank hit renzo in the back of the head with a knee on the ground and it messed renzo up bad! IMO lesnars haymakerground'n'pouner is much worse than frank's knee. good call by the ref IMO



Please watch the fight again, he hit him with one hammer fist the to the back of the head after Mir turned his head in.

Think about all the times a wrestler gets someone's back, and they start just teeing off on the back of their head. They get verbal warnings, after about 2 or 3 shots.

Damn it i miss Big John.
Pookie
2/3/08 2:37:01PM
to play devils advocate, it would have been a shallow victory if lesnar had won because of an illegal blow, granted it was mirs fault for turning into it...
But mir was shaken by that shot to the back of the head bad for a second, i wouldnt want to win like that.

A point shouldnt have been taken away though, that was excessive.
loonytnt
2/3/08 2:56:54PM
he hit him in the back of the head once, should have got a warning and no way should the fight went back to the feet. brock imo had that fight won, it was only one shoot and when he did it he did not hit him again so i think mir was saved. i picked mir to win tho so its all good

i wanna see brock fight again tho
Kazmierz21
2/3/08 3:03:39PM
In all the other fights where there are blows to the back of the head the ref doesn't stop it but shouts out a warning - this was complete nonsense that the match was stopped - Frank was on his way to naptime and Mazagatti saved his ass instead of warning Brock - especially considering that Frank turned his head into the blow - what did they expect Brock to do - stop his hammering in mid-blow because Frank might turn his head - if they start to make calls like that the sport will suffer - people will be handcuffed as to what they can do from on top
jiujitsufreak74
2/3/08 3:08:56PM
well, if you watch the replay, you can see that he hit mir about 4 times in the back of the head. the first three were frank's fault because he was turning into them but if you are the ref and you see a fighter get hit 4 times in the back f the head with the largest hands in UFC history and lesnar is doing nothing to stop hitting him in the back of the head you have to step in or it will be a KO from rabbit punches. i think taking away a point was a little excessive and unfair but the stoppage was just imo. he hit him as i said 4 clean times and was too aggressive to notice so i understand stopping the fight to tell lesnar what he was doing but taking a point away is ridiculous. but, he was stopped anyway so this doesn't even matter and before you ask i do think he would have been submitted even without the stoppage.
Styles
2/3/08 3:13:53PM
Illegal blow is an illegal blow, and it wasn't just once, it was multiple times. I agree with the stand-up but not the point deduction. He should have had a warning first, never the less, what good did the point deduction do? It is what it is, I dont see anyone of you all stepping up and becoming a MMA ref, right?
hotrodttt
2/3/08 3:15:19PM
I think it was due to the fact that Brock Lesnar was the biggest guy Steve Mazzagatti has ever seen and he was probably thinking, " If Frank gets hit in the back of the head by that guy then some real damage can be done." So I agree with the point deduction and stand up.

The same thing also happened in Tyson Griffin vs Gleison Tibau, Gleison was warned 3 times for hitting Tyson in the back of the head and no points were deducted so Steve Mazzagati's decision on the Mir vs Lesnar fight was due to Brock's ManBearPig Strength.
gsquat
2/3/08 3:17:17PM
All I know is that I've seen people hit in the back of the head several times in the UFC and all I've ever heard the ref say is,"Watch the back of the head!" I think Steve was being unkind and trying to set an example. I thought it was very unfortunate that Brock got caught with the leg lock. If they fought again, I'd still pick Lesnar.
candynuts
2/3/08 3:18:29PM
Somehow I just knew there was going to be some controversy at the end of this fight.
I think it is better for the UFC to have controversy in this fight, that way they could still hype up Lesnar. (He was dominating until a controversial call, then got "caught")

Mir vs. Sylvia anyone?
The_Grim_Reaper
2/3/08 3:19:48PM
even joe rogan was like "yeah he only hit him one time in the back of the head and you could it was unintentional but for mazzagatti to stand them up and take a point away was a little...."
CactusBob
2/3/08 3:36:23PM

Posted by hotrodttt

I think it was due to the fact that Brock Lesnar was the biggest guy Steve Mazzagatti has ever seen and he was probably thinking, " If Frank gets hit in the back of the head by that guy then some real damage can be done." So I agree with the point deduction and stand up.

The same thing also happened in Tyson Griffin vs Gleison Tibau, Gleison was warned 3 times for hitting Tyson in the back of the head and no points were deducted so Steve Mazzagati's decision on the Mir vs Lesnar fight was due to Brock's ManBearPig Strength.


The problem I have with this is the double standard. Regardless of the size of the individual, the penalty should be the same. Where a smaller fighter could get away with a warning, the largest fighters must as well. We cannot start penalizing fighters based on their size.

It was a good fight, and I saw a lot of potential for Lesnar. I knew he would get submitted, but if he learns the rights things, including a better pace, he could be a force.
roadking95th
2/3/08 3:38:43PM

Posted by tuvok500

The ref did his job, Lesnar probably received a lot of instructions in the lockeroom by the ref and he knew the rules.

Also, being hit in the back of the head by a 145 guy and being hit in the back of the head by a 265 guy is totally different, i mean, you can not train your head to receive big shoot in the back like you can do with your habs, and the ref can give a lot of warning to a small 145 guy before deducting a point because he hit less harder but you can not receive many punch in the back of the head by a 265 guy without being stunt and that's why the ref was severe yesterday i think.






does the same go for groin shots?

edit: that doesn't sound right. My point is the size of the fighter should not matter.
Jackelope
2/3/08 3:44:36PM
I'm going to copy my own post from another thread for simplicity's sake and because I see this thread becoming the main discussion area for this fight.


The stoppage definitely came as a surprise to me. Even though I can see why he would jump in like that considering Lesnar's size and the potential to do some real damage after hitting someone in the head like that.

As for it "saving" Lesnar I disagree. As I mentioned in another thread he regained the exact same position after his second takedown, then transitioned to north south, then back to side control on the other side. Obviously he couldn't finish it there even given several opportunities, so I don't see what makes people think he was going to the first time. Even if he had, there would have been an illegal blow to the head involved and the victory would have been tainted.

He came out and did the right thing- got the takedown early, dished out punishment that his size and strength allowed, and tried to finish it quick. It was the typical strategy one could expect from a man like Lesnar. Mir won by capitalizing on opportunity (as JJ experts are very well known to do) and putting himself in positions on the ground to weather the opponent's storm and pull out a submission victory. It's classic MMA (even going back to the early days of UFC 1) and it's why BJJ is and has been so successful in the octagon. Props to Lesnar for putting it all on the line, but the fact is he got beat.



and there you have it
tuvok500
2/3/08 3:54:27PM

Posted by roadking95th


Posted by tuvok500

The ref did his job, Lesnar probably received a lot of instructions in the lockeroom by the ref and he knew the rules.

Also, being hit in the back of the head by a 145 guy and being hit in the back of the head by a 265 guy is totally different, i mean, you can not train your head to receive big shoot in the back like you can do with your habs, and the ref can give a lot of warning to a small 145 guy before deducting a point because he hit less harder but you can not receive many punch in the back of the head by a 265 guy without being stunt and that's why the ref was severe yesterday i think.






does the same go for groin shots?

edit: that doesn't sound right. My point is the size of the fighter should not matter.



Man, normally a kick in the groin result in an immediate stoppage with 5 min to the guy who was hitted to recover . so there is no warning before the stoppage unless the guy who was hitted tell he is ok ,so the ref let them continue but give a warning to the bad guy !!

so, no comparaison with the back of the head punch.




cmill21
2/3/08 4:02:23PM
Punches that hard to the back of the head can cause sever brain damage, i've even heard of people dieing after being hit just right once in the back of the head.
John_Jobber
2/3/08 4:03:21PM

Posted by cowcatcher

me and my friends stood and cheered the entire fight and anyone that makes me do that is someone id pay to see again.



That's EXACTLY why he deserves to be in the UFC. Everyone with their egotistical WWE bashing needs to pay attention to what's good for the MMA as a sport.

I think this fight turned out perfect, imo. The Brock haters can't say that he didn't deserve to be fighting in the UFC and the Brock fans aren't going to say he deserves a title shot after walking through 2 opponents.

jiujitsufreak74
2/3/08 4:08:32PM

Posted by Styles

Illegal blow is an illegal blow, and it wasn't just once, it was multiple times. I agree with the stand-up but not the point deduction. He should have had a warning first, never the less, what good did the point deduction do? It is what it is, I dont see anyone of you all stepping up and becoming a MMA ref, right?



that is what i was trying to say in my post, brock hit him multiple times in the back, not just once, of the head and seemed unaware of doing so, leaving mazagatti with the option of stepping in and making brock aware iff the illegal blows. the point deduction was a little much but the stand up was justified because brock hit him a good 4 times in the back of the head and didn't look like he was going to stop which may have resulted in a KO by an illegal blow making this a NC and making more controversy. i personally don't think the stoppage saved brock by any means and imo we would have been caught with a submission anyway because the legal hammer fists weren't landing too cleanly and mir looked composed save for the illegal hammer fists.
Kazmierz21
2/3/08 5:37:34PM
I must disagree - - I counted two blows to the back of the head and both were Mir turning his head as the blow came in - - and I think at that point Brock had Mir at the edge of the cliff. If Mazagatti yelled out at him and warned him and he switched it over to some elbows or hammers to the ear I think Mir was done just because of the size of Brock and how vicious the blows looked (i.e. why a lot of people who were there or who were watching thought the fight was over when Mazzagatti stopped it). Therefore, I think the stoppage saved Mir and was definitely out of protocol from Mazzagatti. It's one thing for a guy to be teeing off on the back of someone's head - - it's a whole other thing when you are raining down blows and your opponent turns his head to avoid the blow. Like I said before if the UFC starts to ref matches that way it will weaken the sport since people will be limited in how they can strike from the top and nobody wants that - - you don't wanna get punched in the back of the head unintentionally don't get taken down. In my opinion there should never be a stoppage without a warning or two unless the illegal blows are deliberate (like how 99.9% of the matches are reffed).
whardin19
2/3/08 5:44:16PM
I only saw one rabbit punch in the back of the head in the replay of it. I agree with the stoppage but not the point deduction. Other than that I think they should start back into the postition the were in.
jomatty
2/3/08 6:51:01PM

Posted by Gladiator

personally i think that u probably picked lesnar to win and thought he was going to finish the fight from that position, which he probably would have. but rules are rules and if brock lesnar, being the freak of a beast that he is, is hitting someone in the back of the head then the ref better stop the fight before someome gets killed. i dont know if any of u saw the frank shamrock vs renzo gracie fight, but frank hit renzo in the back of the head with a knee on the ground and it messed renzo up bad! IMO lesnars haymakerground'n'pouner is much worse than frank's knee. good call by the ref IMO



i picked lesnar to win but that means very little to me. if you check my posts you will see that i was very very happy that mir won and am always happy when bjj guys shine in the octagon. if you really think that the only reason someone would question the stand up is because they are trying to explain point losses in mmaplayground you should watch a bunch of other fight and then this one and see that the same thing happens in both fights.

also i dont think you can enforce the rules differently based on someones size and strength as one poster mentioned. it either is a rule or it isnt and if it is going to be enforced needs to be enforced across the board, that much is clear to me anyways.

and also this is totally different than the shamrock/renzo fight. frank was in a position where it was clear what his intention was and no contact to the head was allowed from knees. and mir/lesnar was in a postion where there is a small line from what a legal strike is and what is illegal and mir was rolling around making that line very ambiguous.

again my problem was not with the stand up itself, just with it being applied fairly if they are going to apply it at all.

Jlloyd
2/3/08 7:05:51PM
i wanted Mir to win, but i thought standing Lesnar up and deducting a point was a joke

in every other fight i've seen the ref goes 'watch the back of the head' once or twice before taking any action, similar to if one of the fighters are holding the cage or the shorts. just a verbal warning.

To stand him up when he was raining down punches possibly on the way to a victory was harsh on Lesnar to say the least, i'm suprised he didn't comment on it when talking to Rogan, but fair play to him for giving props to Mir etc
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