Stack the heavyweight division

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jarod1005
7/5/10 4:42:04PM
This division is still not a "stacked" division, yet. Of course, there is Lesnar and Carwin, but after them the only two major attractions are, dos Santos and Velasquez. All of the other names are either, tomato-cans, or recycled heavyweights. "Big Country" Nelson will be a non-factor soon, after the dos Santos fight.

The following 5 names definitely need to be in the UFC:

1. Fedor Emelianenko
2. Fabricio Werdum
3. Brett Rogers
4. Alistar Overeem
5. Antonio Silva

Also, Bobby Lashley, once he improves. He can be a definite force if he gets better. If Dana could bring the afforementioned competition from the other promotions, then the UFC heavyweight divsion would be similar, or as exciting, as the boxing heavyweight fights of the 1970's.

Heavyweight fights are the best! Remember, speed kills, but power rules!!





"The best fighter is not a Boxer, Karate or Judo man. The best fighter is someone who can adapt to any style."—Bruce Lee


BlueSkiesBurn
7/5/10 5:13:28PM
Why is Roy Nelson going to be a non-factor? Too many people dismiss Nelson. It's gotten to the point where I'm sort of getting offended for him. He's an accomplished fighter who's proven time and time again that he belongs.
SmileR
7/5/10 5:26:45PM
Nog & Mir are still legit top 10 HW 's so I'd say 6 of the top 10 HW's reside in the UFC. Also Duffee, Barry, Nelson, Gonzaga, Kongo, Schaub, Struve & Yvel are all solid HW's.
I agree that all 5 of the guys you mention would be great additions to the HW devision but the UFC would be fine without them.
Also I would rather they brought in guys not linked with M1 after the way past and even present business partners have said they behave and the demands they make.

Out of the 5 you mentioned I'd love the see Overeem in there and see how he'd fair against the bigger just as powerful wrestlers.
jae_1833
7/5/10 5:54:28PM
Back in the day I would have added Barnett, but 3 strikes and your out in my world.
Aleksander Emelianenko (not going to happen)
Dave Herman (good prospect)
gartface
7/5/10 7:10:26PM

Posted by BlueSkiesBurn

Why is Roy Nelson going to be a non-factor? Too many people dismiss Nelson. It's gotten to the point where I'm sort of getting offended for him. He's an accomplished fighter who's proven time and time again that he belongs.


I completely agree. I think yet another case of judging a book by its cover. Just because the guy doesn't have the best physique and has somewhat of a humorous attitude, doesn't mean he's going to be a non-factor. The guy has proven in the past that he has a completely legitimate ground game and is adding a power overhand right to his arsenal, just ask Brendan Schaub and Stefan Struve. He has highly controversial losses to Ben Rothwell, Jeff Monson, and Andrei Arlovski. He's going to open your eyes along with every other doubters' eyes, win or lose in August.

It's amazing to think just after losing a fight to Shane Carwin, that Frank Mir is suddenly a "tomato can?" Give me a break, he ran into a wrecking ball that almost dethroned Brock Lesnar. What about Nogueira, Rothwell, and even Struve down the line? There's a lot of promise in this division down the line. I'd say it's a lot more stacked from top to bottom than the welterweight division is. Most of the divisions within the UFC are very top heavy, with dominant champions like GSP and Anderson, but you look at the 205 and heavyweight divisions, and you see a depth of competition.

As for the heavyweights I'd like to see, I'd most definitely like to see Dave Herman make his way, and Werdum back in the UFC.
Cdellorso
7/5/10 7:52:29PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNCyOwms4tk

Roy is not to be underrated... he just cant compete with the likes of Lessnar carwin valesquez's wrestling - untill he loses a bit of the gut - check this video out he has the skillz he just wouldnt be able to get up with any of these 3 guys on top of him, with all theat weight...
he has the shirt on hiding the belly but its still not as big as it is now...
as far as the top 5s? I like Fedor still on top even though he lost but answer this or give me better matchups or results
1. Fedor Emelianenko VS Brock Lesnar
2. Fabricio Werdum VS Big Nog
3. Brett Rogers VS Frank mir
4. Alistar Overeem VS Cain Valezques
5. Antonio Silva VS Shane Carwin

TheGodfather1024
7/5/10 8:21:33PM
Dana is a bitch if he doesn't want Fedor anymore after that one loss....IN THE LAST 10 YEARS. Fedor's fight was like Brock's fight to Frank Mir the first time. Dana is foolish for all the **** he has said.
seanfu
7/5/10 9:59:16PM

Posted by gartface


Posted by BlueSkiesBurn

Why is Roy Nelson going to be a non-factor? Too many people dismiss Nelson. It's gotten to the point where I'm sort of getting offended for him. He's an accomplished fighter who's proven time and time again that he belongs.


I completely agree. I think yet another case of judging a book by its cover. Just because the guy doesn't have the best physique and has somewhat of a humorous attitude, doesn't mean he's going to be a non-factor. The guy has proven in the past that he has a completely legitimate ground game and is adding a power overhand right to his arsenal, just ask Brendan Schaub and Stefan Struve. He has highly controversial losses to Ben Rothwell, Jeff Monson, and Andrei Arlovski. He's going to open your eyes along with every other doubters' eyes, win or lose in August.

It's amazing to think just after losing a fight to Shane Carwin, that Frank Mir is suddenly a "tomato can?" Give me a break, he ran into a wrecking ball that almost dethroned Brock Lesnar. What about Nogueira, Rothwell, and even Struve down the line? There's a lot of promise in this division down the line. I'd say it's a lot more stacked from top to bottom than the welterweight division is. Most of the divisions within the UFC are very top heavy, with dominant champions like GSP and Anderson, but you look at the 205 and heavyweight divisions, and you see a depth of competition.

As for the heavyweights I'd like to see, I'd most definitely like to see Dave Herman make his way, and Werdum back in the UFC.



Actually he just beat a 24 year old tall kickboxer who is largely untested. So congrats Nelson.
warglory
7/5/10 10:35:25PM

Posted by Cdellorso

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNCyOwms4tk

Roy is not to be underrated... he just cant compete with the likes of Lessnar carwin valesquez's wrestling - untill he loses a bit of the gut - check this video out he has the skillz he just wouldnt be able to get up with any of these 3 guys on top of him, with all theat weight...
he has the shirt on hiding the belly but its still not as big as it is now...
as far as the top 5s? I like Fedor still on top even though he lost but answer this or give me better matchups or results
1. Fedor Emelianenko VS Brock Lesnar
2. Fabricio Werdum VS Big Nog
3. Brett Rogers VS Frank mir
4. Alistar Overeem VS Cain Valezques
5. Antonio Silva VS Shane Carwin




What does his gut have to do with it?
warglory
7/5/10 10:36:49PM

Posted by TheGodfather1024

Dana is a bitch if he doesn't want Fedor anymore after that one loss....IN THE LAST 10 YEARS. Fedor's fight was like Brock's fight to Frank Mir the first time. Dana is foolish for all the **** he has said.



Even if Fedor had won his fight, nothing would have changed with Dana. He has already gone above and beyond to try and get Fedor into the UFC, but M-1 was too demanding. Dana is clearly done dicking around with this situation, the UFC does NOT need Fedor.
warglory
7/5/10 10:40:07PM

Posted by seanfu


Posted by gartface


Posted by BlueSkiesBurn

Why is Roy Nelson going to be a non-factor? Too many people dismiss Nelson. It's gotten to the point where I'm sort of getting offended for him. He's an accomplished fighter who's proven time and time again that he belongs.


I completely agree. I think yet another case of judging a book by its cover. Just because the guy doesn't have the best physique and has somewhat of a humorous attitude, doesn't mean he's going to be a non-factor. The guy has proven in the past that he has a completely legitimate ground game and is adding a power overhand right to his arsenal, just ask Brendan Schaub and Stefan Struve. He has highly controversial losses to Ben Rothwell, Jeff Monson, and Andrei Arlovski. He's going to open your eyes along with every other doubters' eyes, win or lose in August.

It's amazing to think just after losing a fight to Shane Carwin, that Frank Mir is suddenly a "tomato can?" Give me a break, he ran into a wrecking ball that almost dethroned Brock Lesnar. What about Nogueira, Rothwell, and even Struve down the line? There's a lot of promise in this division down the line. I'd say it's a lot more stacked from top to bottom than the welterweight division is. Most of the divisions within the UFC are very top heavy, with dominant champions like GSP and Anderson, but you look at the 205 and heavyweight divisions, and you see a depth of competition.

As for the heavyweights I'd like to see, I'd most definitely like to see Dave Herman make his way, and Werdum back in the UFC.



Actually he just beat a 24 year old tall kickboxer who is largely untested. So congrats Nelson.



He beat a guy on a 3 fight win streak, which included a beatdown of Paul Buentello. It's disrespectful to dismiss Nelson's achievements.
AchillesHeel
7/6/10 9:57:45AM

Posted by warglory

He beat a guy on a 3 fight win streak, which included a beatdown of Paul Buentello. It's disrespectful to dismiss Nelson's achievements.


I don't think saying that he isn't an elite fighter, or that he'll lose to Dos Santos, is being dismissive of his achievements. Fabiano Scherner, Brad Imes, Brendan Schaub, and Stefan Struve are not top-caliber fighters, at least not yet (neither are Kimbo Slice or Justin Wren, although Wren was the only one of them to give Nelson a fight, iirc). Struve has never fought anyone in the Top-30, by my reckoning, so defeating him doesn't put anyone among the elite.

If you want to find someone who's being dismissive of Nelson, find the guy who put him on TUF and then set him up with Struve. Nelson should have been signed to a regular UFC contract in June of last year and made his debut at UFC 102 against Gabriel Gonzaga (instead of Chris Tuchscherer, whom Gonzaga smashed in a few minutes, iirc).
jarod1005
7/6/10 10:41:15AM

Posted by BlueSkiesBurn

Why is Roy Nelson going to be a non-factor? Too many people dismiss Nelson. It's gotten to the point where I'm sort of getting offended for him. He's an accomplished fighter who's proven time and time again that he belongs.




He is a non-factor! Nelson is decent, but will never be a force in the division. He has blemishes on his record to Monson and Arlovski. Steffan Struve is a tall, and lanky kid, who is basically, overall, inexperienced. He was a small-looking 248 lbs. because of his height. He will need every bit of 265 if wants to compete in the division.

I remember watching the fight, and after, Rogan said that Nelson is the real deal. No doubt, but Struve was way overmatched. Nelson was even my pick to win TUF, because had vast more experience than anyone there.

Roy has never really beaten anyone. He has a streak of wins when he was in the IFL, and some before IFL, but no one special. He was tested against Monson and Arlovski, and he failed. If he is fortunate to get past Junior dos Santos, then, I will have some respect.

Somehow, I don't see that happening.





"The best fighter is not a Boxer, Karate or Judo man. The best fighter is someone who can adapt to any style."—Bruce Lee

prozacnation1978
7/6/10 11:41:35AM
Ufc has a stacked heavyweight division more now than it ever has been
Only way you get overeem, silva,werdum,rodgers,lashley is if strikeforce folds up
And then still a lot of those guys will just fight in dream in japan
I think ufc is good right now in all weight classes. I kind of wish ufc would add
Another weight class. To add another belt. Either at cruiserweight 195. Or even 225 weight class.
Cdellorso
7/6/10 1:10:01PM

Posted by warglory


Posted by Cdellorso

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNCyOwms4tk

Roy is not to be underrated... he just cant compete with the likes of Lessnar carwin valesquez's wrestling - untill he loses a bit of the gut - check this video out he has the skillz he just wouldnt be able to get up with any of these 3 guys on top of him, with all theat weight...
he has the shirt on hiding the belly but its still not as big as it is now...
as far as the top 5s? I like Fedor still on top even though he lost but answer this or give me better matchups or results
1. Fedor Emelianenko VS Brock Lesnar
2. Fabricio Werdum VS Big Nog
3. Brett Rogers VS Frank mir
4. Alistar Overeem VS Cain Valezques
5. Antonio Silva VS Shane Carwin




What does his gut have to do with it?



its why he is underrated overlooked and why he wont be a top 10 fighter or top 5 UFC.
BlueSkiesBurn
7/6/10 3:33:22PM

Posted by jarod1005


Posted by BlueSkiesBurn

Why is Roy Nelson going to be a non-factor? Too many people dismiss Nelson. It's gotten to the point where I'm sort of getting offended for him. He's an accomplished fighter who's proven time and time again that he belongs.




He is a non-factor! Nelson is decent, but will never be a force in the division. He has blemishes on his record to Monson and Arlovski. Steffan Struve is a tall, and lanky kid, who is basically, overall, inexperienced. He was a small-looking 248 lbs. because of his height. He will need every bit of 265 if wants to compete in the division.

I remember watching the fight, and after, Rogan said that Nelson is the real deal. No doubt, but Struve was way overmatched. Nelson was even my pick to win TUF, because had vast more experience than anyone there.

Roy has never really beaten anyone. He has a streak of wins when he was in the IFL, and some before IFL, but no one special. He was tested against Monson and Arlovski, and he failed. If he is fortunate to get past Junior dos Santos, then, I will have some respect.

Somehow, I don't see that happening.




I also believe that Roy was winning that fight against Arlovski before one of the dumbest stand-ups in MMA history.
slapshot
7/6/10 3:54:18PM
Blows my mind that there are still people out there that think the HW division is "weak" I dont know what to tell you other than the fighters you have listed are all not in the UFC for a reason.

Other than Overeem I dont care to see any of the fighters you listed in the UFC.

Fedor is not worth what they want to sign him, SF will keep Overeem and the others aren't worth signing. I see a lot of fail and a big waist of resources.
jarod1005
7/6/10 5:19:00PM

Posted by BlueSkiesBurn


Posted by jarod1005


Posted by BlueSkiesBurn

Why is Roy Nelson going to be a non-factor? Too many people dismiss Nelson. It's gotten to the point where I'm sort of getting offended for him. He's an accomplished fighter who's proven time and time again that he belongs.




He is a non-factor! Nelson is decent, but will never be a force in the division. He has blemishes on his record to Monson and Arlovski. Steffan Struve is a tall, and lanky kid, who is basically, overall, inexperienced. He was a small-looking 248 lbs. because of his height. He will need every bit of 265 if wants to compete in the division.

I remember watching the fight, and after, Rogan said that Nelson is the real deal. No doubt, but Struve was way overmatched. Nelson was even my pick to win TUF, because had vast more experience than anyone there.

Roy has never really beaten anyone. He has a streak of wins when he was in the IFL, and some before IFL, but no one special. He was tested against Monson and Arlovski, and he failed. If he is fortunate to get past Junior dos Santos, then, I will have some respect.

Somehow, I don't see that happening.




I also believe that Roy was winning that fight against Arlovski before one of the dumbest stand-ups in MMA history.




I also believe that Carwin was winning that fight against Lesnar before he was taken down. A win is a win, and a loss is a loss. The 5 fighters that I mentioned can beat any of the recycled heavyweights in the UFC. The only competition are Lesnar, Carwin, dos Santos and Velasquez.

That is not enough!


Playground_Samurai
7/6/10 8:23:07PM

Posted by jarod1005
The 5 fighters that I mentioned can beat any of the recycled heavyweights in the UFC.



You state this as fact. Where is the proof?
jjeans
7/7/10 3:01:56PM
Nuff talking about it, ill stack it

1. Lesnar Vs 12. Rothwell
2. JDS Vs 11. Cro Cop
3. Wedrum Vs 10. Nelson
4. Fedor Vs 9. Big Nog
5. Carwin Vs 8. Overeem
6. Mir Vs 7. Velasquez
jarod1005
7/8/10 2:02:57PM

Posted by gspfan


Posted by jarod1005
The 5 fighters that I mentioned can beat any of the recycled heavyweights in the UFC.



You state this as fact. Where is the proof?





Well, the fact that the aforementioned Gonzaga, Kongo, Barry, Nelson, Herring, Schaub, Struve and Yvel, already have losses to the big 4 (Lesnar, Carwin, dos Santos and Velasquez), in the UFC.

Struve lost to Nelson, plus Struve has some growing to do!

Barry lost to Mirko!

Mirko, well he is just hanging around. He lost to both dos Santos and Kongo! Kongo, pleeeeze!!

Kongo has lost to Velasquez!

Mir, well... you know his story. He lost 2 out of his last 3 fights. Guess which fighters he lost to?

Schaub is an up-and-comer, but he lost to Nelson.

Yvel has lost to dos Santos and Rothwell!

Rothwell has losses to Velasquez and Arlovski!

Gonzaga has losses to Carwin and dos Santos!

Lesnar has beaten Herring and Mir!

Nelson has losses to [Jeff] Monson and Arlovski.

Nogueira has lost to Velasquez!

I can go on, but why?

The point is that I want to see the best fights, especially, if I have to pay $45.00 to view them. Bringing in the new list of fighters deepens the heavyweight tournament; more intrigue and competition.



"The best fighter is not a Boxer, Karate or Judo man. The best fighter is someone who can adapt to any style."—Bruce Lee



Playground_Samurai
7/9/10 12:50:51PM
Styles make fights. MMAth doesn't work.
jarod1005
7/15/10 4:08:40PM

Posted by gspfan

Styles make fights. MMAth doesn't work.



Well, there are no more styles to make after Lesnar vs. Velasquez, except the winner fighting dos Santos; Carwin is heavily in that mix also.





"The best fighter is not a Boxer, Karate or Judo man. The best fighter is someone who can adapt to any style."—Bruce Lee



Pookie
7/15/10 6:46:17PM

Posted by jarod1005


Posted by gspfan

Styles make fights. MMAth doesn't work.



Well, there are no more styles to make after Lesnar vs. Velasquez, except the winner fighting dos Santos; Carwin is heavily in that mix also.





Every fighter in the division brings a different skillset. This is unarguable, no two fighters have the exact same strengths and the exact same weaknesses.

So what you are actually arguing is that there is a lack of top fighters in the division, and in accordance with your count; there are 4. WIth the rest being sub-par in the grand scheme of things.

Now, have you considered looking at the other divisions? To compare your feelings about the HW division with the rest of what is in the UFC, therefore adding validity to the sentiment that the HW division needs new fighters.

I dont think you have, and this is why. At LW, there is 1 fighter who is relevant by your standards. Grayn Maynard. Penn lost to Edgar, Florian lost to Penn, and Edgar lost to Maynard.
These losses to the "big four" are what excluded Nog and Mir from the top of the division, so likewise it must be applied everywhere equally.

At WW, theres is GSP and GSP alone.

At MW, there is only Anderson Silva

At LHW, there is no one.

But at HW, there is Lesnar, Velasquez, and Dos Santos. Carwin is not-permissable by the standards you judged Nog and Mir with.

So overall, Heavyweight is actually the division thats most dynamic at the top of the division. Logically, this is the division that you want to put the least amount of effort into to improve.

jarod1005
7/22/10 1:40:41PM






Every fighter in the division brings a different skillset. This is unarguable, no two fighters have the exact same strengths and the exact same weaknesses.

So what you are actually arguing is that there is a lack of top fighters in the division, and in accordance with your count; there are 4. WIth the rest being sub-par in the grand scheme of things.

Now, have you considered looking at the other divisions? To compare your feelings about the HW division with the rest of what is in the UFC, therefore adding validity to the sentiment that the HW division needs new fighters.

I dont think you have, and this is why. At LW, there is 1 fighter who is relevant by your standards. Grayn Maynard. Penn lost to Edgar, Florian lost to Penn, and Edgar lost to Maynard.
These losses to the "big four" are what excluded Nog and Mir from the top of the division, so likewise it must be applied everywhere equally.

At WW, theres is GSP and GSP alone.

At MW, there is only Anderson Silva

At LHW, there is no one.

But at HW, there is Lesnar, Velasquez, and Dos Santos. Carwin is not-permissable by the standards you judged Nog and Mir with.

So overall, Heavyweight is actually the division thats most dynamic at the top of the division. Logically, this is the division that you want to put the least amount of effort into to improve.







Right, of course, the other fighter outside of Lesnar, Velasquez, Carwin and dos Santos, are below par. Yes, the division needs to improve! C'mon.. they have set up a rematch with Mir and Nogueira because not either one of them deserve the merit to fight for the title! Mir clearly dominated the first fight; and there should be no need for a rematch. They are making fights up because there is no one to fight. Realistically, Mir or Nog should be fighting Mirko.

The lighter divisions are who they are, but they are still stacked. The divsions pf WW, MW and LHW can easily be manipulated to make the talent pool deeper. Besides, traditionally.. the lighter divisons, in MMA, as well as boxing, have always been the more exciting. Also, you can always have a fighter who fights a MM, come up to LHW, or a WW, come up to MM or LHW go down to MM, etc. It's endless.

They need to deepen the gene pool of the heavweights. If everything remains status quo, who will we be talking about a year from now, what about two years?


"March 16th, Mike Tyson [vs.] Razor Ruddock, Razor Ruddock dies. If he doesn't die, it doesn't count. If he's not dead, it doesn't count." - Mike Tyson

jarod1005
7/22/10 1:49:41PM
Bring in all of the fighters that I mentioned at the beginning of this thread, and you will most certainly see, and have, a more vigorous, and dynamic HEAVYWEIGHT divison.




"March 16th, Mike Tyson [vs.] Razor Ruddock, Razor Ruddock dies. If he doesn't die, it doesn't count. If he's not dead, it doesn't count." - Mike Tyson




Pookie
7/22/10 11:17:23PM

Posted by jarod1005

Bring in all of the fighters that I mentioned at the beginning of this thread, and you will most certainly see, and have, a more vigorous, and dynamic HEAVYWEIGHT divison.




"March 16th, Mike Tyson [vs.] Razor Ruddock, Razor Ruddock dies. If he doesn't die, it doesn't count. If he's not dead, it doesn't count." - Mike Tyson







Well, d'uh. But the point still stands that the HW division right now is the most stacked at the top of the division by your own criteria.
jarod1005
7/23/10 2:00:09PM





Well, d'uh. But the point still stands that the HW division right now is the most stacked at the top of the division by your own criteria.




Uh, I'm not saying that it is currently stacked, at all; in fact, it is watered down. The bottom line is that I only see 4 competive fighters, so that makes for 2 interesting fights. Now, the winner of those [2] fights, fight each other. So you have one champion, who will dominate the rest of the divsion for 2 or more years.

Please tell me what is so interesting and competitive about the heavyweight divsion? Just give me some tangible UFC fighters who can be Carwin, Velasquez, dos Santos and Lesnar, for the next two years.

I have already given you a summation on the rest of the fighters, and how they have, and will stand against the aforementioned, big 4.



"March 16th, Mike Tyson [vs.] Razor Ruddock, Razor Ruddock dies. If he doesn't die, it doesn't count. If he's not dead, it doesn't count." - Mike Tyson

Pookie
7/23/10 3:11:30PM

Posted by jarod1005



The bottom line is that I only see 4 competive fighters, so that makes for 2 interesting fights. Now, the winner of those [2] fights, fight each other. So you have one champion, who will dominate the rest of the divsion for 2 or more years.

Please tell me what is so interesting and competitive about the heavyweight divsion? Just give me some tangible UFC fighters who can be Carwin, Velasquez, dos Santos and Lesnar, for the next two years.




4 Competitive fighters make for only 2 interesting fights if you go out of your way to kill the division.

I think if you make the right match-ups at the right time you can get 8-12 good fights out of 4 top notch fighters and the 5-9 sporadically, who do statistically have a better chance at upsetting these fighters than you give them credit for.

Lesnar v. Cain is next,
I think Cain wins that, And say Dos Santos takes the crown.
If dos santos becomes champion, Brock Lesnar takes his crown back.
This leaves you with Brock Lesnar v. Carwin 2, And even though i picked Lesnar in the first one~ I say carwin wins the next one.
When Carwin is Champion, I think Dos Santos would take back the crown.


Thats 5 matches if the Ufc cuts to the most efficient route of disthroning their champs, but if they don't this can stretch to 6-or 7 matches easily. In Championship fights this is 3 years at least, which is more than enough time to let new stars emerge.

If you look at any other division, its much less heavy towards the top of the division, but with just more B+ fighters to fill in for title shots.

In my opinion every other division but LHW has a weaker squad of contenders to fight for the crown.
slapshot
7/24/10 11:30:28AM
LOL at this thread.

Yeah man, the UFC's HW division is watered down... LOL = nonsense

UFC has the only real HW division out there. Other than Fedor the fighters you listed are all so so fighters that really dont bring anything dynamic to the UFC.

Fedor and Overeem would add talent but the rest of the fighters are just gatekeeper type fighters.

If you want to see the best fights you can, then you will always find them in a different weight class.
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