Spike's Deadliest Warrior

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POLL: Worth Watching?
Looks awesome 47% (31)
Looks ok 27% (18)
Looks kinda dumb 6% (4)
Looks like a waste of time 5% (3)
jakeiceman only noticed it because Liddell is in it 15% (10)
mkiv9secsupra
4/18/09 11:08:52AM

Posted by Rush
Second, if you are going to compare anything in a proper scientific manner you have to use the same tests. You cannot say one thing is better than the other by comparing two different results from two different tests.
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Yeah that is pretty dumb. They compare two different weapons and the tests are completely different!? They use one weapon to cut through a body, then use another to smash things, then base their conclusion off of two %100 different tests.

Also, are they even factoring in any kind of tactics or terrain or any other variables like that or are they just basing the entire fight on weaponry?

There is just too much that they need to explain before anything from the show could be believeable


Jackelope
4/18/09 12:22:19PM

Posted by Rush

I see the show as an excuse to take weapons and cut up pieces of meat and bash fake heads.




I completely agree with almost everything you said. I've had the same thoughts myself and I think earlier in the thread I posted something to that effect.

Now, that being said.. the reason why I quoted the above is because this in itself is reason enough for me to watch the show

Also, always good to see you make a post
Svartorm
4/23/09 4:54:05PM
Spoilers!
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I wasn't a fan of the Spartan vs. Ninja episode so much. The weapons didn't match up at all, and that young ninja representative was annoying as all hell. I did love when he hit the bronze plate with his kama and it just dented it, and that dude was brutal with his shield striking. I'm excited for next week, just because I want to see how a flintlock pistol does against plate armor. If it doesn't work, pirate is going to get ****** up.
Mayhem13
4/23/09 5:00:32PM
I'm really starting to like this show...the Apache guy was kind of annoying but that's been mty only complaint.

That jaw bone hatchet F'd that head up real bad! and I was suprised the damage done by the sling...

Ninja vs Spartan was ok...Viking vs Samaurai was sweet!


I am 2-1 so far on my predictions..

Next week I am going with the Knight...but guns kind of have me worried for my pick...but I don't think the pirates weapons will get through the armor.
Svartorm
4/23/09 5:10:28PM
I don't believe they will, but it all depends on how accurate the guy shooting is. If he can hit the softer spots consistantly, he could win. The thing is, the knights long range weapon appears to be a crossbow, and against an unarmored oppoenent like the pirate, its pretty well over for him. Just as accurate as that periods firearm but with no armor to stop it.
Mayhem13
4/23/09 5:24:20PM
I agree, that's pretty much how I see it.

I am looking forward to the ***** vs Yakuza episode..but the weapons will all probably be similiar.

Wonder how long until the have blood vs crip, and see who's more acurate while doing drive bys at different speeds.
MMA_Alex
4/23/09 7:51:44PM
Apparently, the "experts" on this show aren't experts at all and (at least for the Samurai and Ninja episodes) they apparently got a lot of things wrong (especially the ninja episode). I forgot what the username of the guy was, but if you look for the episodes on youtube, you'll find a guy who points out everything wrong about the two shows.

He also finds out that the two "ninjas" never actually trained in ninjitsu at all; one studied a bunch of martial arts and the other is actually just a voice actor who played a ninja in a video game once.

That being said, I still enjoy the show - I think I'll just have to accept things not being entirely correct and enjoy the battles and tests themselves. :P
Jackelope
4/23/09 8:38:36PM
The little ninja dude seemed to have some technique, but the one with the weird hair (who I'm assuming was the voice actor) definitely could have used some more technique with his sword slash IMO. It was obvious he'd handled a sword before, but even in saying that his cut had hardly any progressive edge on it, and when you're talking about a weapon like a ninja's sword that progressive edge ups your cutting power immensely. In the hands of a skilled swordsman that pig carcass would have been toast in one shot.

I'm not so sure the Knight's armor will be able to take a shot from the flintlock. They'll probably be at pretty close range, and those old pistols had a huge caliber of bullet. Then again, they weren't exactly a shaped penetrator like the bullets of today are. If the pirate gets in close I can't wait to see him try to use a panzy ass pirate sword against the knight
Svartorm
4/23/09 8:53:28PM
Technically speaking, no one knows Ninjitsu anymore. Being as no one knew who ninja were, the lineage of ninja teachings is so screwed up, anyone can SAY they do Ninjitsu, but thats not at all accurate.

I don't know what comments you're talking about, as I couldn't find anything looking at the videos, but as for the expertise of the four guys, I don't know any of them personally, but I can say these two things:

1. I've been in martial arts for 18 years, and theres no way those guys aren't trained in something. They might not be "ninja", but Klein had proper form with his sword work and used the other weapons fairly well. Thats not something you pick up as a voice actor. The kid with him might have been annoying, but he clearly knew some form of combatives by the work he was doing on the heavy bag and in his use of the weapons as well. As for the Spartans, the Green Beret didn't do much combatively, but his partner was clearly trained in spear combat, his footwork when geared up as a Spartan was excellent, and his hoplon work was very solid.

2. This looks like a fairly high-budget show, and considering their other episodes had experts in their respective fields, it doesn't make sense to skimp on this one. It wouldn't be hard to find someone qualified to talk about both Ninja and Spartans, so why get fakes?
The_Metal_Maniac
4/23/09 8:56:23PM
Snake Blocker owns all


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Svartorm
4/23/09 8:57:45PM

Posted by Jackelope

It was obvious he'd handled a sword before, but even in saying that his cut had hardly any progressive edge on it, and when you're talking about a weapon like a ninja's sword that progressive edge ups your cutting power immensely. In the hands of a skilled swordsman that pig carcass would have been toast in one shot.



I'd have to see it again, but he looks like he does a very "traditional" sword style, and the movements looks very lackluster. My older brother studied something similar and while it doesn't look like much, its really the quality of the weapon that makes it work. If you tried the same style with a piece of junk sword, you'd be getting nowhere fast. Brett Chan from the Samurai episode is a much more "progessive" swordmans in that regard.
Jackelope
4/23/09 10:10:47PM

Posted by Svartorm


Posted by Jackelope

It was obvious he'd handled a sword before, but even in saying that his cut had hardly any progressive edge on it, and when you're talking about a weapon like a ninja's sword that progressive edge ups your cutting power immensely. In the hands of a skilled swordsman that pig carcass would have been toast in one shot.



I'd have to see it again, but he looks like he does a very "traditional" sword style, and the movements looks very lackluster. My older brother studied something similar and while it doesn't look like much, its really the quality of the weapon that makes it work. If you tried the same style with a piece of junk sword, you'd be getting nowhere fast. Brett Chan from the Samurai episode is a much more "progessive" swordmans in that regard.



Yeah, what I was referring to was the fact that when you slice with a sword edged like a katana (or ninjato in this case) you're not only supposed to move your arm across with the strike, but you're supposed to be turning the blade into the strike with your hands as you cut. That way you get the cut angle from your arm, but that angle gets progressively sharper from the grasping of your hands - that way you utilize the sharpness of the weapon on a long edge instead of just trying to chop through something like an axe. It's actually the reason the handle is curved on a chinese broadsword, too.

I'll admit I'm not the best weapons guy around- I've got limited training at best in weapons. The thing is, though... my cousin is a FANTASTIC Shinkendo practicioner, and I've seen him do a lot of work with Japanese swords. So I know a bit more of what to look for than my training would suggest. It's clear that there was a bit of lack of progressive edge on that sword strike, but I'm with you in saying that those guys were obviously trained.

Svartorm
4/23/09 10:30:33PM
I understand what you mean, as I've done work with Japanese sword arts myself. Some people practice what are referred to as "traditional" sword or weapon styles in the TMA field, and they're essentially non-combative styles. Its about the base movements, and not so much about actual cutting power or the things guys in combatives are concerned with. You run into it a lot in forms competitions in TMA, but being as its fairly boring to watch, you don't see too much of it outside of there. Klein moved like hes from one of those sword schools, and basically did a form on the pig carcass. If you noticed, he actualy makes an extra cut under the pig to finish whatever sword form it was. You can see the difference with Brett Chan when he hacked through the two picks. I'm sure the swords were basically the same, but Chans style was an actually combat style. The only reason Kleins style even works is because the Ninjato is such a devastating cutting tool, as you could see by what it did to the ballistics gel dummy.
Jackelope
4/23/09 11:03:00PM
Ahh, okay.. yeah it sounds like you know exactly what I'm talking about. I didn't know there were any other styles when it comes to east asian weaponry like that. It seems to me that the style I was referring to would be vastly superior just based on the cutting power alone. It's almost like those kinds of weapons are built to do just that. I know Miyamoto Musashi, who was arguably the greatest swordsman ever, used the progressive cutting style because you can clearly see it in his paintings. He wrote about how a stroke with the brush was just like a stroke with the sword, only on a smaller scale.



MMA_Alex
4/24/09 12:02:28AM
Link

This is the video I was talking about (part 1 of 2). He does seem to have legitimate credentials and information on the subject.
Svartorm
4/24/09 12:58:45AM

Posted by Jackelope

Ahh, okay.. yeah it sounds like you know exactly what I'm talking about. I didn't know there were any other styles when it comes to east asian weaponry like that. It seems to me that the style I was referring to would be vastly superior just based on the cutting power alone. It's almost like those kinds of weapons are built to do just that. I know Miyamoto Musashi, who was arguably the greatest swordsman ever, used the progressive cutting style because you can clearly see it in his paintings. He wrote about how a stroke with the brush was just like a stroke with the sword, only on a smaller scale.






Its sort of like the difference between Tai Chi and a more combative TMA. Tai Chi can be used in an offensive way, but thats not really what its for. The traditional weapon styles are about the forms and movements, where as the stuff real Japanese sword fighters use is very much about cutting power and just moving the blade quickly as possible. Even though they're both sword forms, they're sort of apples and oranges in that way.

And Musashi was hands down the most dangerous swordfighter ever I think. There are a handful of people that know how to fight with his dual sword method, and while I've never seen any in action, I've heard from several swordfighters, some nationally ranked, that they're basically unbeatable.
Aaronno9
4/24/09 7:50:21AM
I just watched spartans vs ninjas. It was pretty good. Im just about the watch the samurai vs viking now.
Svartorm
4/25/09 12:46:16AM

Posted by MMA_Alex

Link

This is the video I was talking about (part 1 of 2). He does seem to have legitimate credentials and information on the subject.



Ok, I just watched the videos.

As to his claim about Michael Lehr not knowing Ninjitsu and editing his website to include it, I can't say. He clearly has martial arts training, so who knows.

As for the "peasants weren't ninja" thing, I haven't a clue. Could be legit.

As for the black eggs, I'd always heard they were filled with metal filing, so he could be spot on with that, as I have no clue when glass came to Japan. They had the ability to laquer objects though, so one would think they'd have glass-like substances.

As for his collection of swords, those are straight up Home Shopping Club weapons. No one in their right mind would use a serated sword, especially considering they had access to katana craftsmanship, which is by and far the greatest slicing weapon of all time. The technique to craft a katanas edge couldn't possibly be applied to a serated blade, and I'm not willing to believe ninja, a people whos job it was to kill effectively and silently, would use a sword that has inferior cutting power and is generally messier and more likely to catch on bone or clothing. Considering, as far as I know, theres only one document that even describes ninja swords, I'm not willing to believe that weapons isn't from someones imagination.

As for the guy himself in this video, several things bother me. Granted, I don't know this guy personally, and I will say hes clearly educated on ninjitsu lore and the language, but as a martial artists, I was not at all impressed with his movements.

For one thing, he had poor technique drawing and sheathing a sword. When demonstrating how to draw a ninjato, the blade was pulled out sideways, which is incorrect, and both times he went to sheath it, he didn't leave his thumb off the suba to guide the blade in. This is the mark of someone whos not used to handling bladed weapons.

Also, when demonstrating the various hooked weapons, he clearly displays "limp wrists". One thing people from EVERY martial arts field display are strong wrists, as no matter if you're doing grappling, weapons training or striking, you need strong wrists and grip, and you can tell by the way hes handling the admittedly heavy iron hooks that hes not used to doing so. His technique in handling the ninja claws is also awkward, once again displaying hes not confortable with the weapons and familiar with the technique, to the point of it being muscle memory. Lou Klein, who he says "Has no ninjitsu experience, and no martial arts experience whatsoever, as far a I can tell", is clearly the better martial artist of the two.

As a person, I find this guy to be a what I'd call a jock sniffer and an elitist. Hes clearly educated on theory and history, but doesn't display any ability whatsoever, and his comment about buying a ninja master "very expensive tea, that costs several hundred dollars", to be a very snotty. If you're buying someone a present, and truly mean it to be a gift from the heart, you don't brag to people about how much it costs. Thats shitty.

While this guy might be upset he wasn't invited on the show, the fact of the matter is, the only function the experts on the show serve is to actually use the weapons effectively, which this guy clearly wasn't able to do. He might be pissed he got snubbed or something, but Klein and Lehr are hands down, the better martial artists.
The_Ho_Bag
4/29/09 3:45:05PM
i was pretty upset with this episode of the Knight vs pirate.

im pretty sure if you take a morningstar to the face your are done, but it was awesome how the blunderbuss took out the armor with ease.

i was pretty sure the knight would win but i guess the guns played a huge role.

im 2-2 so far loosing with the gladiator and knight
Svartorm
4/29/09 4:16:42PM
It was a good episode, but the pirates had a bit of an unfair advantage being able to use grenades. A morning star will take you out, but a grenade is a whole different animal all together.

That and I think the crossbow was unfairly represented. Considering the pirate was able to have 4 loaded flintlock pistols, I don't see why the knight wasn't allowed to have more than one crossbow bolt. I was really impressed with the blunderbuss though, as I didn't think it was making it through the plate armor like that. Its sort of funny that plate armor has the same weakness for small, fast projectiles that bulletproof vests do.
The_Ho_Bag
4/29/09 5:45:48PM
and the knight never used his halberd (sp/?)

the pirate took 2-3 MS hits and was still standing. that grenade was the difference make IMO , dropped him off his horse and made it advantage for the pirate
Jackelope
4/29/09 11:14:32PM
In a test with 1,000 trials you would expect both the blunderbuss and the flintlock to misfire many times. Even a modern weapon like an AR-15 would be expected to misfire at least once or twice during that time. Don't even get me started on the AK-47 and its constant misfiring Especially when you consider the environments that the pirates' weapons are exposed to constantly. I don't think the fail factor OR the inaccuracy of the pirates' weapons was factored in properly at all.

More criticism-

I also agree that any shot from either the crossbow or the morningstar is a crippling shot. Pretty much no matter where it happens. Also, why not carry more bolts for the knight? We know that comparing the fail rate of a flintlock vs. that of a crossbow is laughable at best. For that matter, why not incorporate the knight's horse as a weapon considering that by history's accounts that was the knight's most devastating weapon for a number of reasons that I won't go into.

I like the show, but I'm beginning to grow even more disturbed by the terrible oversights constantly displayed. I'm not saying the pirate wouldn't stand a chance, but I think the mobility of a Knight on a horse coupled with his armor and the fail ratio of the flintlock/blunderbuss was not factored in properly at all. I would expect the fight to be 50/50 more than anything, with the grenados and ranged weapons giving a slight edge to the pirate.
cmill21
4/30/09 12:22:02AM
I quit watching when the Viking lost....They never lose. Hope they have a highlander in the show someday.
The_Ho_Bag
4/30/09 2:42:30PM
Cmil-Vikings did loose , didnt u see pathfinder =)

im interested int he next one. is it ***** vs yakuza(SP?)
Svartorm
4/30/09 2:47:00PM
That one should be cool, although it looks like they've selected tire irons and baseball bats for close range weapons, which is a bit silly.
Aaronno9
4/30/09 3:21:51PM
I like watching the show but im not reading into the tests. Theres always an advantage for one side. One thing that bugged me about the ninja and spartan was after the ninja threw the crushed glass in the spartans eyes, he managed to recover after like, 10 seconds. I just cant see that really happening.
The_Ho_Bag
4/30/09 3:32:41PM

Posted by Aaronno9

I like watching the show but im not reading into the tests. Theres always an advantage for one side. One thing that bugged me about the ninja and spartan was after the ninja threw the crushed glass in the spartans eyes, he managed to recover after like, 10 seconds. I just cant see that really happening.



yah that made me scream.

i really want to see William Wallace vs Shaka Zulu
Thefridge1337
5/6/09 3:50:28PM
Mafi@ vs Yakuza was kind of stupid i thought that the yakuza would win do to more technical training. The molotov cocktail part was dumb they throw it in a car with no windshield... that would happen so often in real life. I also didn't like that the yakuza didn't use a katana. I don't even think they took into consideration that most yakuza know martial arts.
mrsmiley
5/6/09 4:29:20PM

Posted by Thefridge1337

Mafi@ vs Yakuza was kind of stupid i thought that the yakuza would win do to more technical training. The molotov cocktail part was dumb they throw it in a car with no windshield... that would happen so often in real life. I also didn't like that the yakuza didn't use a katana. I don't even think they took into consideration that most yakuza know martial arts.



Yeah no kidding.
They show the Katanna,but never put it to the test.
I was for sure they would have put it up against the baseball bat.
Svartorm
5/6/09 5:14:44PM
I think they left the katana out because they've already covered it. If you look at the tests though, the only weapons that made a difference were the sub-guns, as at least 90% of the kills were with that. Not the best episode, but it was at least entertaining, and seeing nunchuks not really work was great.

Next episode is Green Berets vs. Spetsnaz, which should be awesome.
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