Soccer Kicks and Head Stomps....

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POLL: Ban Soccer Kicks and Head Stomps?
Yes 45% (23)
No 53% (27)
Not Sure 2% (1)
tomp6581
3/28/07 1:54:14PM
After talking to some of the guys on here about it, Im am courious to know if people think these techniques are too dangerous and should be banned
redmist
3/28/07 2:36:33PM
Yeah i've always felt that knees to the head on the ground are a very important part of mma, but soccer kicks/stomps should be outlawed. They serve no real purpose and to the casual observer they appear barbaric and perpetuate the bar fight reputation the sport has among the ignorant.
chentay2112
3/28/07 2:55:00PM
i coulden't have put that better myself that's the biggest thing in pride that i diden't like...
when an opponent is down kicking/stomping him isen't sport it's just a street fight...
of course this is just my opinion and i have friends that love that part of pride and will be disapointed when the rule changes come into force
warglory
3/28/07 3:11:40PM
See the pinned discussion for my opinion, I really don't want to copy it all over here. All I will say is I am totally against them (thought they are really cool to see, not gonna lie).
pv3Hpv3p
3/28/07 3:47:32PM

Posted by redmist

Yeah i've always felt that knees to the head on the ground are a very important part of mma, but soccer kicks/stomps should be outlawed. They serve no real purpose and to the casual observer they appear barbaric and perpetuate the bar fight reputation the sport has among the ignorant.



Sit back and imagine a fighter in the mount smashing the dude bellow him with just puches/elbows... no specific technique, just stradle and toss em till the guys done, or the ref stops it, or your arms are to tierd to throw, whatever...

Looks a little barbaric as well doesn't it?

It's a combat sport, for any casual fan if they would have seen Diaz in the corner between rounds in the Gomi fight would have considered it barbaric...

They are very effective techniques and the purpose they serve is to finish a fight.
Mastodon2
3/28/07 4:03:07PM
There is no need to ban them. People that think they perpetuate the "barbic" interpretation that some fans have, are as dumb as the fans that hold afformentioned opinion.

They should stay. To ban them would be to dilute the MMA experience.
cowcatcher
3/28/07 4:07:41PM
if it means that state athletic commisions arent going to back the fights then they should be gone, if someone can convince them that they belong and get them to sanction fights then they should be there. if i was getting in the octagon or a ring im not sure that i personally would want them allowed, as a fan they are fun to watch but when wandy is stomping at someones face i start to feel really bad for the guy thats gonna be tasting brazilian cheese
redmist
3/28/07 4:38:29PM

Posted by pv3Hpv3p


Posted by redmist

Yeah i've always felt that knees to the head on the ground are a very important part of mma, but soccer kicks/stomps should be outlawed. They serve no real purpose and to the casual observer they appear barbaric and perpetuate the bar fight reputation the sport has among the ignorant.



Sit back and imagine a fighter in the mount smashing the dude bellow him with just puches/elbows... no specific technique, just stradle and toss em till the guys done, or the ref stops it, or your arms are to tierd to throw, whatever...

Looks a little barbaric as well doesn't it?

It's a combat sport, for any casual fan if they would have seen Diaz in the corner between rounds in the Gomi fight would have considered it barbaric...

They are very effective techniques and the purpose they serve is to finish a fight.



I disagree. it's not a technique at all, it's stamping on someone's face and it's an unnecessary tactic.

For a fighter in mount who has his arms tied up a headbutt is effective also, does this mean they should be allowed, no.

It's mma not nhb. We have to move with the times.
warglory
3/28/07 4:39:47PM

Posted by Mastodon2

There is no need to ban them. People that think they perpetuate the "barbic" interpretation that some fans have, are as dumb as the fans that hold afformentioned opinion.

They should stay. To ban them would be to dilute the MMA experience.



You wont be saying that when someone dies because their throat is crushed.

Stomping someone takes about as much talent as headbutting, and it really is a dangerous move. To call me dumb because I am concerned about fighters needlessly hurting themselves is fairly tasteless on your part.
hippysmacker
3/28/07 4:49:18PM

Posted by redmist

Yeah i've always felt that knees to the head on the ground are a very important part of mma, but soccer kicks/stomps should be outlawed. They serve no real purpose and to the casual observer they appear barbaric and perpetuate the bar fight reputation the sport has among the ignorant.



100%
Cobbs666
3/28/07 4:56:44PM



I disagree. it's not a technique at all, it's stamping on someone's face and it's an unnecessary tactic.

For a fighter in mount who has his arms tied up a headbutt is effective also, does this mean they should be allowed, no.

It's mma not nhb. We have to move with the times.


its not moving with the times , thye have not been moved yet, they are making the times, they will always want ufc to be the #1 promotion even though they own pride, why would they want more exciting fights happening overseas? its all bullshit politics and money, fertitas will burn in hell for this
warglory
3/28/07 5:07:06PM

Posted by Cobbs666




I disagree. it's not a technique at all, it's stamping on someone's face and it's an unnecessary tactic.

For a fighter in mount who has his arms tied up a headbutt is effective also, does this mean they should be allowed, no.

It's mma not nhb. We have to move with the times.


its not moving with the times , thye have not been moved yet, they are making the times, they will always want ufc to be the #1 promotion even though they own pride, why would they want more exciting fights happening overseas? its all bullshit politics and money, fertitas will burn in hell for this


....I take it you like PRIDE?
JimiMak
3/28/07 5:18:25PM
How so many of you can support the dilution of this sport is beyond me. I've already gotten in a pretty lengthy discussion about this, but you all are saying that ppl think stomps look brutal? You do realize the UFC is held inside of a cage right? and that that lends itself to the "bloodlust" misconceptions more than, maybe, any other single factor.

Trying to stomp over a BJJ guys guard and kick him in the face w/o getting swept takes a lot more technique than pinning someone against a cage.
pv3Hpv3p
3/28/07 5:45:26PM

Posted by redmist


Posted by pv3Hpv3p


Posted by redmist

Yeah i've always felt that knees to the head on the ground are a very important part of mma, but soccer kicks/stomps should be outlawed. They serve no real purpose and to the casual observer they appear barbaric and perpetuate the bar fight reputation the sport has among the ignorant.



Sit back and imagine a fighter in the mount smashing the dude bellow him with just puches/elbows... no specific technique, just stradle and toss em till the guys done, or the ref stops it, or your arms are to tierd to throw, whatever...

Looks a little barbaric as well doesn't it?

It's a combat sport, for any casual fan if they would have seen Diaz in the corner between rounds in the Gomi fight would have considered it barbaric...

They are very effective techniques and the purpose they serve is to finish a fight.



I disagree. it's not a technique at all, it's stamping on someone's face and it's an unnecessary tactic.

For a fighter in mount who has his arms tied up a headbutt is effective also, does this mean they should be allowed, no.

It's mma not nhb. We have to move with the times.



kind of like a hammer fist, or a wild looping right hand, right? If it is as easy as you say, why weren't more fights ended by stomps / soccerkicks?

Unnecessary on who's terms? If a fighter is dropped with a punch/kick and the opposing fighter does not want to end up on the mat in his guard, why limit him to kicking the legs of the downed fighter? Why cater to the ground fighters strengths? Why can Travis Lutter lay on his back for the last 30 second of rd 1 against Silva with barely any repercussions besides the very audible boos from the crowd?

This is how i see it, a jj guy/wrestler can secure a TD or even pull guard to bring the fight into his realm, but as a striker you have no way of forcing your strength on a fighter who is choosing to constantly go to the ground...

IMO, this makes the fighting more complete




also, IMO, headbutts are not allowed because it is a unique situation where both fighters are suseptable to getting fight-stopping cuts...
warglory
3/28/07 5:45:55PM

Posted by JimiMak

How so many of you can support the dilution of this sport is beyond me. I've already gotten in a pretty lengthy discussion about this, but you all are saying that ppl think stomps look brutal? You do realize the UFC is held inside of a cage right? and that that lends itself to the "bloodlust" misconceptions more than, maybe, any other single factor.

Trying to stomp over a BJJ guys guard and kick him in the face w/o getting swept takes a lot more technique than pinning someone against a cage.



The cage is designed the way it is to avoid corner issues, and it also keeps the fighters safe because they can't fall through the ropes. It is an intimidating presence for sure, but it was designed this way for a reason.

And how is making the sport safer diluting it? Are you in favor of bare knuckle fights and headbutts too? One could say these things diluted the sport from its original incarnation as well.

Stomps not only look brutal, they ARE brutal, and have no place in a sanctioned sport.
warglory
3/28/07 6:00:03PM

Posted by pv3Hpv3p


Posted by redmist


Posted by pv3Hpv3p


Posted by redmist

Yeah i've always felt that knees to the head on the ground are a very important part of mma, but soccer kicks/stomps should be outlawed. They serve no real purpose and to the casual observer they appear barbaric and perpetuate the bar fight reputation the sport has among the ignorant.



Sit back and imagine a fighter in the mount smashing the dude bellow him with just puches/elbows... no specific technique, just stradle and toss em till the guys done, or the ref stops it, or your arms are to tierd to throw, whatever...

Looks a little barbaric as well doesn't it?

It's a combat sport, for any casual fan if they would have seen Diaz in the corner between rounds in the Gomi fight would have considered it barbaric...

They are very effective techniques and the purpose they serve is to finish a fight.



I disagree. it's not a technique at all, it's stamping on someone's face and it's an unnecessary tactic.

For a fighter in mount who has his arms tied up a headbutt is effective also, does this mean they should be allowed, no.

It's mma not nhb. We have to move with the times.



kind of like a hammer fist, or a wild looping right hand, right? If it is as easy as you say, why weren't more fights ended by stomps / soccerkicks?

Unnecessary on who's terms? If a fighter is dropped with a punch/kick and the opposing fighter does not want to end up on the mat in his guard, why limit him to kicking the legs of the downed fighter? Why cater to the ground fighters strengths? Why can Travis Lutter lay on his back for the last 30 second of rd 1 against Silva with barely any repercussions besides the very audible boos from the crowd?

This is how i see it, a jj guy/wrestler can secure a TD or even pull guard to bring the fight into his realm, but as a striker you have no way of forcing your strength on a fighter who is choosing to constantly go to the ground...

IMO, this makes the fighting more complete




also, IMO, headbutts are not allowed because it is a unique situation where both fighters are suseptable to getting fight-stopping cuts...



This is why they have made rules for making the fighters stand up. See Vitor Belfort vs. Sakuraba as an example. This is a match during the pre-stomp/soccer kick era of PRIDE, and Vitor kept dropping into a defensive ground posture. Sakuraba lit into Vitor with his low kicks and put a HUGE black and blue welt on Vitor's upper thigh causing him to constantly adjust positions, and not only that, the ref stood them up multiple times.

Fights like this are perfect examples of why we have strict rules, not only for fighter safety, but also for aggression (as ironic as that definitely sounds). Today, if a fighter took the approach that Vitor did, especially in the UFC, they would be penalized and stood up after several seconds because of a lack of engagement. You can get around lame opponents by either using alternative tactics (i.e. throwing a huge haymaker like Fedor and other ground n pounders do so well, kicks to the thigh like Sakuraba, cartwheels like many of the lightweights do, etc). With as quickly as this sport has evolved, and all the new techniques that have blossomed, its not a stretch to say there is/will be a realistic alternative to kicking or stomping a downed opponent in the head.

Very good points made though, I have to give that to you.
redmist
3/28/07 6:12:05PM

Posted by pv3Hpv3p


Posted by redmist


Posted by pv3Hpv3p


Posted by redmist

Yeah i've always felt that knees to the head on the ground are a very important part of mma, but soccer kicks/stomps should be outlawed. They serve no real purpose and to the casual observer they appear barbaric and perpetuate the bar fight reputation the sport has among the ignorant.



Sit back and imagine a fighter in the mount smashing the dude bellow him with just puches/elbows... no specific technique, just stradle and toss em till the guys done, or the ref stops it, or your arms are to tierd to throw, whatever...

Looks a little barbaric as well doesn't it?

It's a combat sport, for any casual fan if they would have seen Diaz in the corner between rounds in the Gomi fight would have considered it barbaric...

They are very effective techniques and the purpose they serve is to finish a fight.



I disagree. it's not a technique at all, it's stamping on someone's face and it's an unnecessary tactic.

For a fighter in mount who has his arms tied up a headbutt is effective also, does this mean they should be allowed, no.

It's mma not nhb. We have to move with the times.



kind of like a hammer fist, or a wild looping right hand, right? If it is as easy as you say, why weren't more fights ended by stomps / soccerkicks?

Unnecessary on who's terms? If a fighter is dropped with a punch/kick and the opposing fighter does not want to end up on the mat in his guard, why limit him to kicking the legs of the downed fighter? Why cater to the ground fighters strengths? Why can Travis Lutter lay on his back for the last 30 second of rd 1 against Silva with barely any repercussions besides the very audible boos from the crowd?

This is how i see it, a jj guy/wrestler can secure a TD or even pull guard to bring the fight into his realm, but as a striker you have no way of forcing your strength on a fighter who is choosing to constantly go to the ground....



That's why mma fighters have to be proficient in bjj. If you're not comfortable going to the ground go and be a boxer.

There are other remedies to stop a guy from stalling such as yellow cards.

i guess we'll just never agree but you make a lot of good points
JimiMak
3/28/07 6:29:13PM

Posted by warglory


Posted by JimiMak

How so many of you can support the dilution of this sport is beyond me. I've already gotten in a pretty lengthy discussion about this, but you all are saying that ppl think stomps look brutal? You do realize the UFC is held inside of a cage right? and that that lends itself to the "bloodlust" misconceptions more than, maybe, any other single factor.

Trying to stomp over a BJJ guys guard and kick him in the face w/o getting swept takes a lot more technique than pinning someone against a cage.



The cage is designed the way it is to avoid corner issues, and it also keeps the fighters safe because they can't fall through the ropes. It is an intimidating presence for sure, but it was designed this way for a reason.

And how is making the sport safer diluting it? Are you in favor of bare knuckle fights and headbutts too? One could say these things diluted the sport from its original incarnation as well.

Stomps not only look brutal, they ARE brutal, and have no place in a sanctioned sport.



The cage was designed the way it was, by a movie special effets engineer, for specific reasons. I've never denied that. I still like the ring better. I still don't like having the environment the fight is in being a weapon. And I still think it's the biggest reason for the bad image of the sport. Every other combat sport ever has been held in a ring.

The reason for the small gloves is a cut issue (same as most arguments against elbows) not because bare knuckle fights are brutal. Hell Tank was the first to wear them, he wasn't trying to stop from being brutal. Stomps are only as brutal as a CC LHK or a Chuck overhand right. Very few fights are stopped due to stomps. This is fighting --yet you aren't allowed to try for a KO against a guy who is lying on his back in front of you?

Are you saying you don't like early UFC or IVC? I don't mind the lack of things like headbutts but wouldn't mind if they were still legal.

Nothing is more brutal or barbaric in this sport than using the cage the fight is housed in as a weapon.
Mastodon2
3/28/07 7:03:11PM

Posted by warglory


Posted by Mastodon2

There is no need to ban them. People that think they perpetuate the "barbic" interpretation that some fans have, are as dumb as the fans that hold afformentioned opinion.

They should stay. To ban them would be to dilute the MMA experience.



You wont be saying that when someone dies because their throat is crushed.

Stomping someone takes about as much talent as headbutting, and it really is a dangerous move. To call me dumb because I am concerned about fighters needlessly hurting themselves is fairly tasteless on your part.



I'll eat my hat the day someone dies from a crushed windpipe in MMA, which need I remind you, could happen just as easily from a punch or chokehold right?

Do you suggest we ban punching amd chokeholds aswell? After all, these guys are in a FIGHT, but we cant have them getting hurt can we?


People say that stomping and soccer kicks are "Bloodsport"-esque, but in reality, UFC is held in a cage, not far removed from a colleseum. Hell, UFC even show a man putting on Gladitorial armor before every PPV, if that isnt pandering to "Bloodsport" then I dont know what is!
Rush
3/28/07 8:02:31PM
I for one like the idea of having them in the game. The same with knees to the head.

However, my idea would be to have certain types moves optional for fights. i.e. both fighters have to agree to them, otherwise they are outlawed.

As far as these kicks and stomps go, how are they any more/less "tactical" then straddling a guy and pounding on their face with hammer fists?


I think that more guys will get hurt in MMA by accidental eye poking than by head stomps or soccer kicks.
warglory
3/28/07 9:32:33PM
So yeah, I think we can all pretty much agree to disagree. We'll have to see if these moves go anywhere, and it they stay, I'll continue to be interested by how they are executed, I just hope fighters and refs alike can continue to be concious of their potential hazards.

I;m actually quite surprised that the vote was so close. hehe I figured those opposing the moves would have been shut out.
tomp6581
3/29/07 5:47:25AM
I personally think stomps and soccer kicks sound far worst than than they actually are.........the fact of the matter is that an unprotected elbow to someones temple at full force, a massive right hand to the thoat or a Cro Cop type kick to the head fracturing someones skull are all possible and just as "potentially fatal".

Also, for people to say there is no technique to stomps is (imo) ignorant.....watch shogun.....he doesnt just stomp there is more to it than that......he jumps over his grounded opponents legs (passing the guard) aims to stomp the face trying ultimatley to end up in a mounted position where he carries on punching.....not every fighter has the ability or technique to do this......its too easy to say there is no technique.
MrGreeny
7/19/07 6:58:56AM
I think stomps and soccer kicks are a bit too barbaric. Soccer kicks are mostly used, when a fighter is almost KO-ed and i feel, there is no need to do that much additional damage. The thing i hate about stomps is that almost every time they are combined with holding the ropes, and it's completely unfair.
Stomps sure are a nice weapon against opponents, who lay on their backs all the time and hope u go in their guards... So i guess stomps should be legal, but stomps+rope holding should be immediate DQ...
Northrend
7/19/07 7:35:56AM

Posted by pv3Hpv3p


Posted by redmist


Posted by pv3Hpv3p


Posted by redmist

Yeah i've always felt that knees to the head on the ground are a very important part of mma, but soccer kicks/stomps should be outlawed. They serve no real purpose and to the casual observer they appear barbaric and perpetuate the bar fight reputation the sport has among the ignorant.



Sit back and imagine a fighter in the mount smashing the dude bellow him with just puches/elbows... no specific technique, just stradle and toss em till the guys done, or the ref stops it, or your arms are to tierd to throw, whatever...

Looks a little barbaric as well doesn't it?

It's a combat sport, for any casual fan if they would have seen Diaz in the corner between rounds in the Gomi fight would have considered it barbaric...

They are very effective techniques and the purpose they serve is to finish a fight.



I disagree. it's not a technique at all, it's stamping on someone's face and it's an unnecessary tactic.

For a fighter in mount who has his arms tied up a headbutt is effective also, does this mean they should be allowed, no.

It's mma not nhb. We have to move with the times.



kind of like a hammer fist, or a wild looping right hand, right? If it is as easy as you say, why weren't more fights ended by stomps / soccerkicks?

Unnecessary on who's terms? If a fighter is dropped with a punch/kick and the opposing fighter does not want to end up on the mat in his guard, why limit him to kicking the legs of the downed fighter? Why cater to the ground fighters strengths? Why can Travis Lutter lay on his back for the last 30 second of rd 1 against Silva with barely any repercussions besides the very audible boos from the crowd?

This is how i see it, a jj guy/wrestler can secure a TD or even pull guard to bring the fight into his realm, but as a striker you have no way of forcing your strength on a fighter who is choosing to constantly go to the ground...

IMO, this makes the fighting more complete




also, IMO, headbutts are not allowed because it is a unique situation where both fighters are suseptable to getting fight-stopping cuts...




I agree, I feel soccer kicks/stomps are great. Also who just lets you soccer kick them? You have to have the skill to actually hit the move..and also I don't recall ever a bad injury from them. I don't think they are any worse then a huge high kick. Wanderlei Silva brutally stomped Kondo's face who was very small and he wasn't seriously injured..and Wandy has the best stomps in MMA IMO.
MMA
7/19/07 9:07:36AM
Just think of Mark Hunt's atomic butt drop, Wanderlei was lucky he got out of that fight alive.
Northrend
7/19/07 9:30:43AM

Posted by MMA

Just think of Mark Hunt's atomic butt drop, Wanderlei was lucky he got out of that fight alive.




Lol you could do that in the UFC if you wanted to. I would actually like to see that...or some Flying Cartwheel guard passes.
thepunisher
7/19/07 9:35:16AM
I like the head stomps i will miss them
LR
7/19/07 10:04:25AM
Honestly, if you are going to have a discussion on this, you have to have an open mind about the brutality of some of the illegal moves here. They have had various stories on how MMA is brutal here in the states, and to the avail of the UFC fans, MMA fighters have retorted in saying that even though it may look brutal, MMA fighters can do so much more than boxers when it comes to defending themselves. I get that.

But... head stomps are brutal. Outright brutal. And they mostly come at the end of a fight when someone has been flat out punched down and is nearly either defenseless, or is dazed so badly that they can't see the stomp coming. Not only can you bounce a guy's head off the mat, causing a major concussion and probably shelving his career for 6 months, but you have the potential for breaking bones into a person's cranium. Just not something the UFC wants to risk. Soccer kicks are a bit different. A lot of soccer kicks I have seen are usually defended, but do some damage. I have seen a few, particularly with CC, where he lined up the top of their head, and kicked them while down. I think soccer kicks should be allowed, but not in the back or top of the head. Kicking from the side seems very hard to do, but if people want to see them, make it something just like punching to the head, same with knees to the head.

Fact is, knees to the head can do the same as a stomp in literally ending someone's career with a major concussion and the insane post concussion syndrome that can plague people the rest of their lives. And the UFC doesn't want to have the first guy to literally get retired because of it.
bigblair
7/20/07 7:29:07AM
id ban them due to the fact they are dangerous, you catch a stomp on the ground and it could cause serious damage, if you for instance tried to turn to avoid the stomp, ecposed the back f your neck,
full force heel stomp + neck = disability.
to the person that claims elbows and punches are not technique, you have to get into a good position to use these affectivly, so their is technique their
Mastodon2
7/20/07 7:59:31AM

Posted by MMA

Just think of Mark Hunt's atomic butt drop, Wanderlei was lucky he got out of that fight alive.



Actually if you look at that, he caught Wanderlei's foot and nearly snapped Wand's leg back down towards his head; Wand is lucky he didnt get a badly torn Hamstring!
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