Shogun would get run over in the UFC

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nubby
5/16/07 10:12:58PM
Mauricio seems to have no take down defense to speak of. I think he would get owned in the UFC. Please discuss.
Northrend
5/16/07 10:51:02PM
Well, he beat Arona and Jackson who have some of the best takedowns in LHW division. He almost got a omaplata on Arona who is the best BJJ player in LHW and all of MMA. He is ultra-explosive on the standup and his combination of Muay-thai, crazy kicks and fast hands causes problems to most people. Oh and he beat Rampage, Little Nog, Overeem and ARONA AND WON THE GRANDPRIX. Don't know why you are so quick to dismiss him.
loller90278
5/16/07 10:59:47PM
why do you need takedown defense when you are one of the best bjj practicioners in the game ?
Lord_Lenny
5/16/07 11:00:49PM
im not much of an expert on shogun, so i wont trash him or anything but from what iv seen he seems not to match up well with wrestlers but hes got too many other skills to get run over
raindrops21
5/16/07 11:05:04PM
While I think Arona has good BJJ, I definitely would not say he has the BEST in MMA. He may be an ADCC champion, but his BJJ adapted for MMA isnt great. He only has 2 submission wins in his 18 fights. I think Big Nog, BJ Penn, and Shinya Aoki have much better BJJ than Arona. Arona is a takedown machine though and that's how he wins most of his matches.

Onto Shogun, I think he would probably be at a disadvantage in the UFC and with the new rule changes. He is a big fan of soccer kicks and stomps, which we all know isn't allowed anymore. His stand-up is good and his muay thai is good, but I think he would have problems with wrestlers who would take him down and wear him out with the ground and pound. The elbows would definitely pose a problem for him. It will be interesting to see what happens when that time comes.
kaduey
5/16/07 11:19:55PM
Shogun doesn't have the chin for someone like Liddell but I think he could take anyone else at the lightheavyweight division. (maybe not Ortiz because of the contrasting styles, it would be a very difficult fight for Shogun).
Svartorm
5/16/07 11:31:39PM
Hes not too good at TD defense, but if you watch his fights with Overeem, Randleman, etc hes very good at reversals. Oveereem ends up on the bottom almost every time he does a takedown in their first fight. I think hes manage just fine in UFC.
raindrops21
5/16/07 11:35:12PM
Overreem is no ground wizard though, and his gas tank is very questionable. Randleman on the other hand is a world class wrestler, but is stuck in the Mark Coleman school of fighting. "Ground and pound or else." Neither one of them have adapter their game over the last 5 years. Colemanis still the same fighter he was back in the early UFC days, and Randleman is the same way.

I'd definitely like to see Shogun take on some of the UFC's light heavies though. Machida and Shogun could be an awesome fight.

Svartorm
5/16/07 11:42:13PM
I disagree about Overeem. He turned himself from a pretty basic kick boxer into a proficient ground fighter. If I'm not mistaken, he took a European ADCC qualifier a few years back, as well as submitting a few bigger names in MMA. I wouldn't say hes a top ranked ground fighter, but hes tapped more than a few decent ground fighters, although I have to agree about the gas tank. As I've said many times, he cuts too much to make 205, and should fight as a heavy weight.
raindrops21
5/16/07 11:46:22PM

Posted by Svartorm

I disagree about Overeem. He turned himself into a pretty basic kick boxer and really absorbed a ton of ground fighting ability. If I'm not mistaken, he took a European ADCC qualifier a few years back. I wouldn't say hes a top ranked ground fighter, but hes tapped more than a few decent ground fighters, although I have to agree about the gas tank. As I've said many times, he cuts too much to make 205, and should fight as a heavy weight.



I would have to say his most notable submission victory is over Vitor, and although he's a BJJ blackbelt, he is no submission expert. Overeem is a good fighter, and is very explosive, however, I don't think you can compare his ground game to someone who is purely wrestling based. He does have a lot more submission victories than I thought he would though. (13)

I actually think Tito would give Shogun a lot of problems in the UFC. If he can secure the takedown, I don't think Shogun would have much of an answer from his back with the elbows.

Nevertheless, I would like to see it....
Mastodon2
5/17/07 2:30:24AM
Well Shogun will be disadvanted by the restrictive Unified rules set, so those viscious and downright awesome headkicks and stomps would no longer be in his arsenal, which is a big shame.

However, I think he could probably pick Liddell apart slowly and beat him, I think he could sub Tito or even KO him standing, he could beat Jackson again. The guy is a machine, I dont think there is anyone in UFC right now that could stop him, and imo its only a matter of time until he gets the belt from Dan Henderson.
skiba97
5/17/07 6:58:45AM
Theres not one single lhw in the world who i think would "own" shogun. Hes to well rounded, bar his sub par take-down defence. I do think hed have problems against sombody like tito if he got taken down, like cro cop, he just wouldnt be used to taking elbows. Still, i think hed have a very good chance of stopping everybody bar chuck, which is probably in my top 3 most wanted fights.
fedorwins1
5/17/07 1:14:23PM
He's got better cardio than most of the fighters in the UFC, he outmatched Arona(who is better on the ground than every LHW in the UFC), never been knocked out, has an iron chin, and has beaten alot of great strikers. So who poses a threat to him? Ortiz- not as good of a wrestler as Arona, Jardine- lightyears away from Shogun in striking. Forrest- .......c'mon. Machida- easily outmatched. The only person I see as a "threat" to Shogun is Liddell.
Pookie
5/17/07 1:23:01PM
Yeah, Liddell would be a tough match. But The lightheavyweight division is weak in my opinion and i can see anybody taking a clear cut victory over him. I may be biased but i cant see tito winning against any respectable fighter in the division. Also is bjj is really really good, i think he lets people take him down. Why waste energy resisting when youre better on the ground in the first place?
pv3Hpv3p
5/17/07 3:16:15PM
No one would own Shogun in the UFC or otherwise... I don't understand where this is even coming from? Shogun's fight game is complete, while he is very comfortable and effective striking, he is by no means dependant on the standup game to finish a fight, like Chuck and CC, who need the sprawl n brawl, because they don't have an effective ground game... Being a great striker and also having good jits and sweeps, like Loller said, more ar less nullifies the need for superior TD def...

I'm not sure why Kaduey is making the inference that Shogun doesn't have a good chin, besides the broken arm loss to Coleman he only has one loss (sub) to a Babalu that fought the tournament of his life (maybe the most impressive tournament win I can think of: Shogun, then Prangley, and finally Horn!)... Other than that, for as much as Rua likes to stand and trade, IMO, it's very impressive that he doesn't have any (T)KO losses (except for Coleman which wasn't striking)

I don't think Tito would really stand a chance against Maricio, he just doesn't have the standup abilities to trade with him, and I think Rua's guard is too dynamic and aggressive for Tito to LnP or GnP a win without getting subbed or swept... I think Shogun's one weakness is when he fights good strikers, he doesn't seem to have the best headmovement, but isn't afraid to take a shot... Which could mean that he's in trouble if fighting a counterpuncher like Liddell...

If Shogun fights the smart fight, and executes a good gameplan, IMO there's not many folks that have a good chance of beating him from any org

Sorry about the lengthy post
kerazzle
5/17/07 4:26:01PM
Liddell would give shogun big problems. If that fight were to ever happen it'd either be shogun by TKO in the later rounds after having picked apart Lidell with his furious pace, or it would be Liddell by KO in rounds one or two.
Ultimate_fighter
5/17/07 6:39:52PM
he would be a good fighter in the ufc... not a title holder tho
nubby
5/17/07 7:51:22PM

Posted by pv3Hpv3p

No one would own Shogun in the UFC or otherwise... I don't understand where this is even coming from? Shogun's fight game is complete, while he is very comfortable and effective striking, he is by no means dependant on the standup game to finish a fight, like Chuck and CC, who need the sprawl n brawl, because they don't have an effective ground game... Being a great striker and also having good jits and sweeps, like Loller said, more ar less nullifies the need for superior TD def...

I'm not sure why Kaduey is making the inference that Shogun doesn't have a good chin, besides the broken arm loss to Coleman he only has one loss (sub) to a Babalu that fought the tournament of his life (maybe the most impressive tournament win I can think of: Shogun, then Prangley, and finally Horn!)... Other than that, for as much as Rua likes to stand and trade, IMO, it's very impressive that he doesn't have any (T)KO losses (except for Coleman which wasn't striking)

I don't think Tito would really stand a chance against Maricio, he just doesn't have the standup abilities to trade with him, and I think Rua's guard is too dynamic and aggressive for Tito to LnP or GnP a win without getting subbed or swept... I think Shogun's one weakness is when he fights good strikers, he doesn't seem to have the best headmovement, but isn't afraid to take a shot... Which could mean that he's in trouble if fighting a counterpuncher like Liddell...

If Shogun fights the smart fight, and executes a good gameplan, IMO there's not many folks that have a good chance of beating him from any org

Sorry about the lengthy post


Remember, I'm not talking about him fighting UFC fighters in pride. I'm talking about him coming to the UFC. Two of his best tools Head Stoms and Bicycle kicks are removed from his arsenal. Plus he has never had to deal with Elbows to the face while on the ground. This is where my logic comes in. I think that Liddell, Ortiz, Jackson, Couture, and Evans could all beat him. THe latter 4 from ground and pound.
Trapt1nw0nder
5/17/07 9:03:20PM

Posted by nubby


Remember, I'm not talking about him fighting UFC fighters in pride. I'm talking about him coming to the UFC. Two of his best tools Head Stoms and Bicycle kicks are removed from his arsenal. Plus he has never had to deal with Elbows to the face while on the ground. This is where my logic comes in. I think that Liddell, Ortiz, Jackson, Couture, and Evans could all beat him. THe latter 4 from ground and pound.



I agree,and i have always said this myself..

The other thing is the Cage...in the UFC wrestlers dont have to fear of commiting to the takedown since they know there is a cage that will break their fall compared to the fear of over commiting and going through the ropes and out of the ring in Pride.....
raindrops21
5/17/07 9:21:00PM
I agree that Shogun doesn't rely on only one aspect of his game, but his takedown defence isn't great, and I don't think he could sub Tito. Don't get me wrong, I don't think Tito is in the same league as Shogun, but when it comes to the cage, securing a takedown and dropping elbows, I don't think Shogun would have an answer. Tito has a good enough chin to eat a shot or two before he goes all out for the takedown (he did go 3 rounds with Chuck). And once he's there, he doesn't have to worry about missing and eating a few kicks to the face, because that isn't allowed.

I think Shogun gets beat by a great wrestler, or someone like Chuck.

And to the person who said, Machida - give me a break, have you seen him fight? Counter-puncher, great ground game, very elusive, that would be a fight I would love to see. Machida is no joke, that I promise you.
Northrend
5/18/07 3:08:48AM
The cage and no stomps would hurt his game yes, but he has fought in Vale Tudo were they do have ungloved elbows. Also I would have to assume that Chuteboxe is now training elbows once again (hopefully at least..Wandy/Shogun with elbows would be awesome to see)
bengy_23
5/18/07 3:24:31AM
Its seem unanimous that Chuck would beat Shogun by reading the posts in here..
I never thought i would have said that 6 months ago
hook_tothe_body
5/18/07 7:23:04PM

Posted by Northrend

Well, he beat Arona and Jackson who have some of the best takedowns in LHW division. He almost got a omaplata on Arona who is the best BJJ player in LHW and all of MMA. He is ultra-explosive on the standup and his combination of Muay-thai, crazy kicks and fast hands causes problems to most people. Oh and he beat Rampage, Little Nog, Overeem and ARONA AND WON THE GRANDPRIX. Don't know why you are so quick to dismiss him.



Exactly!

Props.
fedorwins1
5/18/07 9:13:49PM

Posted by nubby




Remember, I'm not talking about him fighting UFC fighters in pride. I'm talking about him coming to the UFC. Two of his best tools Head Stoms and Bicycle kicks are removed from his arsenal. Plus he has never had to deal with Elbows to the face while on the ground. This is where my logic comes in. I think that Liddell, Ortiz, Jackson, Couture, and Evans could all beat him. THe latter 4 from ground and pound.


Well he fought in America against Overeem and it didn't look like he had trouble adjusting.
kerazzle
5/18/07 10:03:26PM

Posted by fedorwins1


Posted by nubby




Remember, I'm not talking about him fighting UFC fighters in pride. I'm talking about him coming to the UFC. Two of his best tools Head Stoms and Bicycle kicks are removed from his arsenal. Plus he has never had to deal with Elbows to the face while on the ground. This is where my logic comes in. I think that Liddell, Ortiz, Jackson, Couture, and Evans could all beat him. THe latter 4 from ground and pound.



Well he fought in America against Overeem and it didn't look like he had trouble adjusting.

Yea he's got a sick flying GNP punch which substitutes for his stomps.
nubby
5/18/07 10:15:44PM

Posted by kerazzle


Posted by fedorwins1


Posted by nubby




Remember, I'm not talking about him fighting UFC fighters in pride. I'm talking about him coming to the UFC. Two of his best tools Head Stoms and Bicycle kicks are removed from his arsenal. Plus he has never had to deal with Elbows to the face while on the ground. This is where my logic comes in. I think that Liddell, Ortiz, Jackson, Couture, and Evans could all beat him. THe latter 4 from ground and pound.



Well he fought in America against Overeem and it didn't look like he had trouble adjusting.


Yea he's got a sick flying GNP punch which substitutes for his stomps.

Anyone have a link I would like to see it.
nubby
5/18/07 10:23:36PM
Ok I just watched the fight. Overeem gave him like 3 chances to get back up after going to the ground. Also I wasn't impressed at all with his fighting. If he got in the cage with either Rashad Evans or Tito Ortiz, it would be all over.
Damien6663
5/18/07 10:38:45PM
Not as succesful as he was in pride, probably. But to say Shogun would get run over is ignorant. With Shogun's accomplishments to expect him to get run over is ridiculous. IMO he matches up badly with Ortiz and Liddell.
kerazzle
5/18/07 10:43:31PM
Ortiz IMO would get wrecked by Shogun. Shoguns just too active for him but Chuck would give him some real problems with his counter striking.
Damien6663
5/18/07 10:49:45PM

Posted by kerazzle

Ortiz IMO would get wrecked by Shogun. Shoguns just too active for him but Chuck would give him some real problems with his counter striking.



Crazy'r things have happened, but imo tito is one of the worst matchups for shogun. But there is a reason they make em fight, no1 knows till it happens =)
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