Sherk not even top ten...

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disorderlyvision
4/27/08 11:36:54AM
I found this on another website and thought it was an interesting read



I couldn’t help respond to a comment inquiring as to whether Sean Sherk’s omission from my top-ten lightweight rankings was intentional. And of course my decision to keep Sherk out was intentional. The question I have is when was the last time Sherk recorded a valid victory at lightweight?

Operative word: valid.

Sorry, but Sherk’s victory over Hermes Franca at UFC 73 this past July is not valid. If a fighter is suspended for testing positive for performance enhancers follow a victory, how can you still consider it a legitimate win? It doesn’t matter to me that Franca also tested positive because steroids are a banned substance and fighters are prohibited from using them.

If you go to Sherdog’s fight finder, you will see that Sherk’s victory is official. However, that’s only because by law the California State Athletic Commission does not have the authority to overturn a decision. Granted, Franca tested positive too so the decision shouldn’t be reversed, but if Sherk had tested positive in Nevada, his win would have been declared a no contest.

I really have no idea whether Sherk has ever used steroids. But you cannot argue the fact that he failed CSAC’s test for performance enhancers and that his appeal was denied. While Sherk’s suspension was reduced by CSAC from 12 months to six, he is still considered guilty. Until Sherk is successful in clearing his name, I just don’t see how anyone can look at the Franca victory and consider it legitimate.

So in my mind, the win over Franca is not really a win, which means that Sherk’s last victory at 155 lbs. was on October 14, 2006 at UFC 64 against Kenny Florian. I mean, it’s 2008 and his last win was in 2006! As such, it wasn’t even a toss up when deciding not to rank Sherk in my lightweight top ten. Let him register a valid victory for the first time in 18 months before making a claim that he’s one of the best lightweight fighters in the world.

If Sherk beats B.J. Penn in May, he’ll be top-ten worthy. And if he doesn’t, he’ll be stuck on the outside looking in.


link
jimmypockets
4/27/08 12:14:41PM
Well in that case lets take a look at BJ Penn. He has only had to LW wins since 2004. He beat Stevenson and Pulver. Does that constitute him being top 10. There are arguments for both guys but you have to remember the UFC brought this division back and therefore had to crown a champion and bring in people to fight him. Sherk is a seasoned veteran who has stepped in with many great fighters. Is he number 1, 2, or 3. I personnally dont think so but if he beats Penn (which you are lying to yourself if you think he can't) then he is definately cemented as the top guy in the LW division. I want Penn to win but he is gonna get put on his back early. I just hope he can cope with Sherks power and control.
NinjaCyborg
4/27/08 2:12:21PM
I'm gonna go out on a limb and predict that Sean Sherk is going to prison rape BJ Penn.
nickcuc547
4/27/08 2:49:31PM
i think sherk would beat any lightweight in the world including bj. bj, however, is the only lightweight that can beat sherk, and im not just talking ufc, im talking the entire lightweight division including gomi, sakurai, jz and aoki. sherk's career and title reign have earned him a top 10 ranking.
jiujitsufreak74
4/27/08 2:55:47PM
i keep Sherk out because of his steroid conviction. after he fights BJ i will rank him accordingly to how well he does in the fight.
GSPCanada
4/27/08 3:32:37PM
Whether he knew he had taken roids or not is the real argument, but regardless it was found in his system, therefore we cannot deny he had the advantage of steroids against Hermes. In my opinion neither one of these guys has fought any one recently that should cement them as #1 Ken Flo, Hermes, Stevenson are great fighters but I don't consider them top 5 in overall lightweight ranks, I actually think Pulver is not the same guy anymore but we have to make the argument that he was the former champ. The inly guys Bj and Sherk could fight to cement themselves as #1 are Sherk and BJ
JimiMak
4/27/08 4:03:05PM

Posted by nickcuc547

i think sherk would beat any lightweight in the world including bj. bj, however, is the only lightweight that can beat sherk, and im not just talking ufc, im talking the entire lightweight division including gomi, sakurai, jz and aoki. sherk's career and title reign have earned him a top 10 ranking.



Title reign? what title reign? He dec'd Florian to win it, in his first def he tested pos for roids and had a 6 mo suspension and it'll be just about a yr by the time he gets in to fight BJ who's had two impressive wins since then.

I think worldwide Sherk falls into the middle of the div. In UFC Penn will destroy him and then he falls somewhere near the top, not sure where yet. imo
ICSlegend
4/27/08 4:07:32PM

Posted by nickcuc547

i think sherk would beat any lightweight in the world including bj. bj, however, is the only lightweight that can beat sherk, and im not just talking ufc, im talking the entire lightweight division including gomi, sakurai, jz and aoki. sherk's career and title reign have earned him a top 10 ranking.





You've been living in a dream world...


EON
4/27/08 5:25:52PM
I've never had him in the top 10, even though he could probably beat the bottom 5 in the top 10 I can't put him in that group for how boring it is to watch him fight and how callous it is to cheat, lie about it and steal the belt away from deserving lightweights when he had the belt. BJ is going to get a technical submission because Sherk wont tap due to ego.

WAR SKILL
xchickox
4/27/08 6:45:50PM
i've got sherk at number 1 in my top ten because i think he dominated both florian and franca, both top 10/15 fighters (and i still believe sherk is innocent) and i also think he could beat anyone at LW including BJ
Playground_Samurai
4/27/08 6:57:03PM

Posted by ICSlegend


Posted by nickcuc547

i think sherk would beat any lightweight in the world including bj. bj, however, is the only lightweight that can beat sherk, and im not just talking ufc, im talking the entire lightweight division including gomi, sakurai, jz and aoki. sherk's career and title reign have earned him a top 10 ranking.





You've been living in a dream world...





We could say the same thing about your personal LHW, MW, and WW rankings.

I'm not definate that he could, but I agree that Sherk has the POTENTIAL to defeat ANY LW in the world. I'd choose him over anybody besides Penn at this point. Just my opinion, and I don't even like the guy.
Pitbull09
4/27/08 10:03:53PM
I think why people rank him so high is because of his success in WW then in lightweight. Whether its on fight or not, he was crowned champion. His ranking will eventually level out in the next 5 fights so its nothing to worry over
tepid55
4/27/08 11:45:29PM
In my opinion, Sherk is still a top ten lightweight.
ICSlegend
4/28/08 12:34:04AM

Posted by gspfan

We could say the same thing about your personal LHW, MW, and WW rankings.

I'm not definate that he could, but I agree that Sherk has the POTENTIAL to defeat ANY LW in the world. I'd choose him over anybody besides Penn at this point. Just my opinion, and I don't even like the guy.



What's wrong with my rankings? I don't rank guys who have done nothing like Hamill and Florian (#3 on your top LWs ), unlike you. And you don't even know enough MMA fighters to round out top 10s.

And for the record, I do have Sherk in top 10, just for sheer domination (even if it was mostly cans).

You just proved my point with your statement - Sherk has the "POTENTIAL" to defeat ANY LW in the world. Just like any LW in the world has the "POTENTIAL" to defeat Sherk. Any elite fighter has a chance to beat any other elite fighter. Anyone making blanket statements like nickcuc547, about NO TOP LWs having the ability to beat Sherk is living in a dream world.

And in my opinion your opinion is uninformed. What top 10 guys has Sherk put away? Everytime he gets pitted against an elite guy (which isn't often) he loses. He couldn't even finish Florian or Franca!
Playground_Samurai
4/28/08 1:15:49AM

Posted by ICSlegend


Posted by gspfan

We could say the same thing about your personal LHW, MW, and WW rankings.

I'm not definate that he could, but I agree that Sherk has the POTENTIAL to defeat ANY LW in the world. I'd choose him over anybody besides Penn at this point. Just my opinion, and I don't even like the guy.



What's wrong with my rankings? I don't rank guys who have done nothing like Hamill and Florian (#3 on your top LWs ), unlike you. And you don't even know enough MMA fighters to round out top 10s.

And for the record, I do have Sherk in top 10, just for sheer domination (even if it was mostly cans).

You just proved my point with your statement - Sherk has the "POTENTIONAL" to defeat ANY LW in the world. Just like any LW in the world has the "POTENTIAL" to defeat Sherk. Any elite fighter has a chance to beat any other elite fighter. Anyone making blanket statements like nickcuc547, about NO TOP LWs having the ability to beat Sherk is living in a dream world.

And in my opinion your opinion is uninformed. What top 10 guys has Sherk put away? Everytime he gets pitted against an elite guy (which isn't often) he loses. He couldn't even finish Florian or Franca!



Ah, I really don't want to take it any further and have this progress. I'll just be more direct. It is my opinion, that at this point Sean Sherk could defeat any current ranked LW, besides BJ Penn. I could be wrong. That was my whole point of saying "POTENTIAL". Because nothing is garunteed, especially in MMA. Main point being, you don't have to be living in a dream world to think Sherk is that good.

About not being able to finish, that means nothing in our conversation. It's about winning and losing, period.

As far as me not knowing enough fighters to round out my top 10...???????

Just because I don't finish my personal rankings doesn't mean I don't know enough fighters. I just think it's virtually a rat race for the remaining spots for a group of fighters basically in the same position. And yea, I have Hamill at #10 in the LHW division. I think he's a sleeper. But c'mon. You got Wanderlei at #2 with Chuck nowhere in sight. Nakamura at #9. Saku at #2 at MW. Anderson Silva at #3. Frank Trigg at #7 at WW. So even if I don't know enough fighters, like you claim. I know at least enough to know that, those are some rediculous rankings buddy.
Pookie
4/28/08 4:32:40AM

Posted by jimmypockets

Well in that case lets take a look at BJ Penn. He has only had to LW wins since 2004. He beat Stevenson and Pulver. Does that constitute him being top 10. There are arguments for both guys but you have to remember the UFC brought this division back and therefore had to crown a champion and bring in people to fight him. Sherk is a seasoned veteran who has stepped in with many great fighters. Is he number 1, 2, or 3. I personnally dont think so but if he beats Penn (which you are lying to yourself if you think he can't) then he is definately cemented as the top guy in the LW division. I want Penn to win but he is gonna get put on his back early. I just hope he can cope with Sherks power and control.



he's only stepped in to the ring with 2 great fighters, both times he was handily beat.
ICSlegend
4/28/08 8:51:05AM

Posted by gspfan

Ah, I really don't want to take it any further and have this progress. I'll just be more direct. It is my opinion, that at this point Sean Sherk could defeat any current ranked LW, besides BJ Penn. I could be wrong. That was my whole point of saying "POTENTIAL". Because nothing is garunteed, especially in MMA. Main point being, you don't have to be living in a dream world to think Sherk is that good.

About not being able to finish, that means nothing in our conversation. It's about winning and losing, period.




Why not "have this progress"? This is a forum after all. And yeah, you got your opinions on who would win, but YOU ALREADY PROVED MY POINT. Anyone has the "POTENTIAL" to beat anyone. I never accused you or anyone of living in a dream world for thinking Sherk "could" beat every LW. Can you read?


Posted by ICSlegend
Any elite fighter has a chance to beat any other elite fighter. Anyone making blanket statements like nickcuc547, about NO TOP LWs having the ability to beat Sherk is living in a dream world.



So unless you are saying Sherk will %100 beat EVERYONE, why are you even arguing with me? nickuc547 just made that statement and ran away like a little girl, why are you defending him?

And the "not knowing enough mma fighters" I said in jest, don't know how in the world you anyone could have taken that seriously (you know, kind of like your rankings) And my rankings aren't updated, but once again, rankings are subjective and I can write out a whole spiel about my justifications, but Florian #3 LW?!?! How in the bloody hell can that be justified!?

And speak for yourself! Maybe YOU don't care about finishing fights, but if Fighter A finishes Fighter C via impressive KO/Sub, and Fighter B eeks out a decision win against Fighter C, Fighter A should be ranked higher, especially if Fighter C is top 10. See where I'm going with this? Unless the decision is just a one sided beatdown (Fedor/Nog), they just aren't as definitive as to who the better fighter is (like Chuck/Wandy). I have Wandy ahead of Chuck beacause he finished Rampage in stunning fashion....TWICE. Chuck eeked out a decision win according to UFC rules, and left me wondering what Wandy would have done under Pride rules with Liddell on the mat.
Tein_Lung
4/28/08 2:35:41PM
My thing with teh rankings is how are people like Gomi listed as the umber 1 when he got an old fashoin ass whooping from Nick Diaz who is at best top 15 in LW... yeah it was ruled an NC after his test but regardless he got tolled... but yet he is number 1... Fedor is number 1 in HW when he hasn't faught anyone worth half a crap in over 2 years... hes about to fight Tim but regardless hes had no real HW in years... People say Serra is not even a top 10 WW when he gave GSP his first reall ass whooping... granted he has avenged the loss but he still got a new york muggin in their first fight...
ICSlegend
4/30/08 12:10:52AM

Posted by Tein_Lung

My thing with teh rankings is how are people like Gomi listed as the umber 1 when he got an old fashoin ass whooping from Nick Diaz who is at best top 15 in LW... yeah it was ruled an NC after his test but regardless he got tolled... but yet he is number 1... Fedor is number 1 in HW when he hasn't faught anyone worth half a crap in over 2 years... hes about to fight Tim but regardless hes had no real HW in years... People say Serra is not even a top 10 WW when he gave GSP his first reall ass whooping... granted he has avenged the loss but he still got a new york muggin in their first fight...



Well, I guess "your thing" with rankings should include performance, as well as past accomplishments, you can't just look at the W or L, because sometimes the better man just doesn't win. Is Serra more skilled or accomplished more than GSP?

The Nick Diaz example is classic. Why should he be ranked ahead of Gomi? You need to watch that fight again to see who got tooled. Diaz got DESTROYED by Gomi. Literally got his face broken. And that was by a Gomi that was in Vegas for the first time in his life partying it up in casinos the night before. Think about it. Diaz caught a horribly gassed Gomi (when was the last time that happened?) after getting a massive beatdown. What do you think a top form Gomi would do to him? Diaz also hasn't looked very good, especially getting tooled by KJ Noons. Is this a guy you rank ahead of Gomi? And once again, MJ can mask the results of performance enhancing drugs, which is why it is banned, no one thinks that MJ gives you magical powers to win.

And once again, no one deserved to be ranked head of Fedor. Nog got utterly ANNIHILATED three times by Fedor, how can you possibly rank him ahead? And K1 champions and Olympic medalists are certainly "worth a crap".

If Serra wants to be ranked (I rank him at 10), he needs to beat some other top 10 fighter besides a mentally out of it GSP (we just saw what a top form GSP would do to Serra, so that should have put all speculation to rest).

And once again, rankings are subjective, but ONE FIGHT shouldn't make or break anything. It doesn't in any other sports, why would it in MMA. Hoost is considered one of the best K1 fighters of all time, should he have dropped out of the rankings every time he lost a fight (and he lost quite a few)?
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