sherk haters....still hate??

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MFOTHER
5/25/08 10:56:06AM
i never considered myself a sherk hater (anynone with that record and work ethic is hard not to respect) but i was def pulling for penn.
Sherk however earned alot of my respect, trying to make it an exciting fight. His post fight interview was good as well, and he was very respectful.

now alot of sherk haters and fans, might not respect what he did last night, or call him stupid or crazy, but it reminds me of the wanderlei check fight where they just stood and put on a great fight. I didnt see sherk standing, but he did and i respect him for it
SmileR
5/25/08 11:05:50AM
Sherks boxing was crisp. Shame he hurt his hand! Still though he showed a ton of heart and deserves some respect for that!
NatedawgThaM
5/25/08 11:07:39AM
If their was anyway Sherk was going to beat Penn, it was standing since BJ isn't that great on the feet. He's good and packs some power but he hasn't really shown anything special on the feet so Sherk did play smart which was good because once the fight went to the ground it was only a matter of time before BJ subbed him.

BRING ON GSP!! We need a rematch after that first robbery of a fight!!!
MFOTHER
5/25/08 11:09:44AM

Posted by NatedawgThaM

If their was anyway Sherk was going to beat Penn, it was standing since BJ isn't that great on the feet. He's good and packs some power but he hasn't really shown anything special on the feet so Sherk did play smart which was good because once the fight went to the ground it was only a matter of time before BJ subbed him.

BRING ON GSP!! We need a rematch after that first robbery of a fight!!!




not good on his feet? hasnt shown anything special?
just because he is a bjj wizard doesnt mean he has well round skills in all aspects of the game..
NatedawgThaM
5/25/08 11:11:29AM

Posted by MFOTHER


Posted by NatedawgThaM

If their was anyway Sherk was going to beat Penn, it was standing since BJ isn't that great on the feet. He's good and packs some power but he hasn't really shown anything special on the feet so Sherk did play smart which was good because once the fight went to the ground it was only a matter of time before BJ subbed him.

BRING ON GSP!! We need a rematch after that first robbery of a fight!!!




not good on his feet? hasnt shown anything special?
just because he is a bjj wizard doesnt mean he has well round skills in all aspects of the game..

grappler0000
5/25/08 11:19:00AM

Posted by NatedawgThaM

If their was anyway Sherk was going to beat Penn, it was standing since BJ isn't that great on the feet. He's good and packs some power but he hasn't really shown anything special on the feet so Sherk did play smart which was good because once the fight went to the ground it was only a matter of time before BJ subbed him.

BRING ON GSP!! We need a rematch after that first robbery of a fight!!!



If you need proof that BJ has good standup, just rewatch the fight with GSP...Penn had the better of the striking in that fight.
tepid55
5/25/08 11:24:14AM
I've always respected Sherk, his standup is a very underrated part of his game.
NatedawgThaM
5/25/08 11:29:11AM

Posted by grappler0000


Posted by NatedawgThaM

If their was anyway Sherk was going to beat Penn, it was standing since BJ isn't that great on the feet. He's good and packs some power but he hasn't really shown anything special on the feet so Sherk did play smart which was good because once the fight went to the ground it was only a matter of time before BJ subbed him.

BRING ON GSP!! We need a rematch after that first robbery of a fight!!!



If you need proof that BJ has good standup, just rewatch the fight with GSP...Penn had the better of the striking in that fight.



He's good wherever the fight goes. He has no weakness except maybe his cardio that is probably beastly now that he's focused. No doubt his wrestling/BJJ is great it's just he hasn't really done anything to stand out one the feet that takes him just out of the good category and put him in the great one. Yeah he outstruck GSP which proves his stand up is legit and good, and definitely not a weakness but I don't think outstriking just GSP makes him great.
Franklinfan47
5/25/08 11:32:16AM
I never hated Sherk and thought his performance wasn't bad, but its hard not to resent any fighter for using steroids.
MFOTHER
5/25/08 11:36:48AM

Posted by Franklinfan47

I never hated Sherk and thought his performance wasn't bad, but its hard not to resent any fighter for using steroids.



for me it wasnt the using it was the denying
JimiMak
5/25/08 11:46:30AM
I've never cared for him. Don't like his style, don't like his persoality. Never hated him until the steroid issue (esp the denial). This didn't change my pov, I'm jsut glad BJ did exactly what I thought he would.

"Sherk stood w/ him".... ???... He didn't want to he couldn't take him down. So that doesn't make me respect him anymore. BJ's standup IS great. That's why he's got as many ko's as subs. I didn't like the GSP comments tho. I'd rather see them each try to defend their title for a stretch.
CantAndleDaRiddum
5/25/08 11:50:05AM
i didnt like sherk before the steroids or after.

but i love Roger Clemens before & after the steroids accusations, the only difference is that i have lost a ton of respect for Clemens.

Same goes for Sherk....i still dont like him & i have NO respect for him.
Jackelope
5/25/08 11:54:13AM

Posted by NatedawgThaM


Posted by grappler0000


Posted by NatedawgThaM

If their was anyway Sherk was going to beat Penn, it was standing since BJ isn't that great on the feet. He's good and packs some power but he hasn't really shown anything special on the feet so Sherk did play smart which was good because once the fight went to the ground it was only a matter of time before BJ subbed him.

BRING ON GSP!! We need a rematch after that first robbery of a fight!!!



If you need proof that BJ has good standup, just rewatch the fight with GSP...Penn had the better of the striking in that fight.



He's good wherever the fight goes. He has no weakness except maybe his cardio that is probably beastly now that he's focused. No doubt his wrestling/BJJ is great it's just he hasn't really done anything to stand out one the feet that takes him just out of the good category and put him in the great one. Yeah he outstruck GSP which proves his stand up is legit and good, and definitely not a weakness but I don't think outstriking just GSP makes him great.



BJ is GREAT on the feet. He's got KO power in both hands (and in his knees as Sherk can attest, Caol Uno, too) he's got great killer instinct, he's got phenomenal head movement, etc. etc. He may not be legendary like Crocop, LeBanner or Semmy Schilt, but he's got all the standup skills you could ask for in a well rounded MMA fighter. BJ is great on the feet. Period.
IriShame
5/25/08 12:10:15PM

Posted by Jackelope


Posted by NatedawgThaM


Posted by grappler0000


Posted by NatedawgThaM

If their was anyway Sherk was going to beat Penn, it was standing since BJ isn't that great on the feet. He's good and packs some power but he hasn't really shown anything special on the feet so Sherk did play smart which was good because once the fight went to the ground it was only a matter of time before BJ subbed him.

BRING ON GSP!! We need a rematch after that first robbery of a fight!!!



If you need proof that BJ has good standup, just rewatch the fight with GSP...Penn had the better of the striking in that fight.



He's good wherever the fight goes. He has no weakness except maybe his cardio that is probably beastly now that he's focused. No doubt his wrestling/BJJ is great it's just he hasn't really done anything to stand out one the feet that takes him just out of the good category and put him in the great one. Yeah he outstruck GSP which proves his stand up is legit and good, and definitely not a weakness but I don't think outstriking just GSP makes him great.



BJ is GREAT on the feet. He's got KO power in both hands (and in his knees as Sherk can attest, Caol Uno, too) he's got great killer instinct, he's got phenomenal head movement, etc. etc. He may not be legendary like Crocop, LeBanner or Semmy Schilt, but he's got all the standup skills you could ask for in a well rounded MMA fighter. BJ is great on the feet. Period.


BJ Penn is more dangerous on his feet than anyone else in the lightweight division period. Maybe anyone in the welterweight division. Put that together with a granite chin and a legit BJJ Black Belt and you've got the kind of fighter that could beat GSP.
Aaronno9
5/25/08 12:19:04PM
I agree with jackalope to, b.js striking is defiantly up there. Ive never cared for sherk tbh, before or after the steriod issue. It did start bugging me after a while when he kept denying it though, it wouldn't be the first time sombody passed a lie detector test without telling the truth. To me, this fight was more about the fact i love b.j (no pun intended). His cardio doesnt have to be amazing, just enough to last, then i dont see anybody being able to beat the guy at 55, and id struggle to pick a fight with gsp, but i think hed beat most other guys at 170 to.
whardin19
5/25/08 12:22:18PM
I've been a Sean Sherk fan for quite some time now. It was kind of sad to watch that fight last night. He stood win BJ way to long. I understand the first two rounds trying to wear BJ down. But the third round he should have been trying to take him down. Also if he his hand was hurt all the more reason to take him down. I just don't think he tried to take him down enough. Sherks strongest game is his wrestling and he didn't even use it. So what if BJ Penn is a BJJ wizard. You got to make him fight your game not the other way around. BJ was to comfortable standing with him. So you got to try something else. Also if your going to stand with him why not use that leg kick more you were landing it everytime. That match for Sherk kind of confused me.
NinjaCyborg
5/25/08 12:49:48PM

Posted by Aaronno9

I agree with jackalope to, b.js striking is defiantly up there. Ive never cared for sherk tbh, before or after the steriod issue. It did start bugging me after a while when he kept denying it though, it wouldn't be the first time sombody passed a lie detector test without telling the truth. To me, this fight was more about the fact i love b.j (no pun intended). His cardio doesnt have to be amazing, just enough to last, then i dont see anybody being able to beat the guy at 55, and id struggle to pick a fight with gsp, but i think hed beat most other guys at 170 to.



You must not know what you're talking about because lie detector tests are next to impossible to beat. Maybe 40 years ago when the technology was just being researched and developed it was easy, however these days you cannot beat it, their have been numerous documented attempts to do so and all have failed. Reasearch it.
And secondly I completely believe Sherk when he says he didn't take the steroids. Give the guy a break. Unless you personally have tested his blood and documented the results of what drugs are in his system, you have no right to disrespect him for it.
JimiMak
5/25/08 2:47:12PM

Posted by NinjaCyborg


Posted by Aaronno9

I agree with jackalope to, b.js striking is defiantly up there. Ive never cared for sherk tbh, before or after the steriod issue. It did start bugging me after a while when he kept denying it though, it wouldn't be the first time sombody passed a lie detector test without telling the truth. To me, this fight was more about the fact i love b.j (no pun intended). His cardio doesnt have to be amazing, just enough to last, then i dont see anybody being able to beat the guy at 55, and id struggle to pick a fight with gsp, but i think hed beat most other guys at 170 to.



You must not know what you're talking about because lie detector tests are next to impossible to beat. Maybe 40 years ago when the technology was just being researched and developed it was easy, however these days you cannot beat it, their have been numerous documented attempts to do so and all have failed. Reasearch it.
And secondly I completely believe Sherk when he says he didn't take the steroids. Give the guy a break. Unless you personally have tested his blood and documented the results of what drugs are in his system, you have no right to disrespect him for it.



You don' t know what you're talking about. Lie detector tests aren't hard to beat at all, they measure breathing blood pressure etc That's why they are not, and never will be, admissable in court.

I don't have to test him, the experts did that for me. I would be a less reliable source than them also. I'll disrespect a roider anytime I want.
Jackelope
5/25/08 3:05:16PM

Posted by JimiMak


Posted by NinjaCyborg


Posted by Aaronno9

I agree with jackalope to, b.js striking is defiantly up there. Ive never cared for sherk tbh, before or after the steriod issue. It did start bugging me after a while when he kept denying it though, it wouldn't be the first time sombody passed a lie detector test without telling the truth. To me, this fight was more about the fact i love b.j (no pun intended). His cardio doesnt have to be amazing, just enough to last, then i dont see anybody being able to beat the guy at 55, and id struggle to pick a fight with gsp, but i think hed beat most other guys at 170 to.



You must not know what you're talking about because lie detector tests are next to impossible to beat. Maybe 40 years ago when the technology was just being researched and developed it was easy, however these days you cannot beat it, their have been numerous documented attempts to do so and all have failed. Reasearch it.
And secondly I completely believe Sherk when he says he didn't take the steroids. Give the guy a break. Unless you personally have tested his blood and documented the results of what drugs are in his system, you have no right to disrespect him for it.



You don' t know what you're talking about. Lie detector tests aren't hard to beat at all, they measure breathing blood pressure etc That's why they are not, and never will be, admissable in court.

I don't have to test him, the experts did that for me. I would be a less reliable source than them also. I'll disrespect a roider anytime I want.



I believe in a man's right to disrespect whoever he shall please in the right context (especially if the man is there right in front of him to attack the disrespect) BUT...

Please don't take this as a personal attack on you- but I would honestly reconsider your harsh opinion on roids with a person like James Thompson as your avatar. As a former user, I would bet with 95-99% positivity that James Thompson has done steroids before. That's just being honest with you.

It's one of those things that I don't condone, but I feel that it's a person's right to choose whether or not to use steroids and to deal with the repurcussions following that usage. I only used them for one cycle, and I realized they were not right for me, but far be it for me to judge those who use them. IMO whether Sherk used them or not is a moot point. All we can hope for is that he learned his lesson and that he will represent the sport in a positive manner from here on out.
JimiMak
5/25/08 3:09:46PM
^^Honestly I'm supercynical about the issue. I tend to think they all do them. Or are on "the next thing to be banned". I don't believe in accusing anyone w/o proof, but those who are caught must be dealt w/ harshly. Those few who refuse to admit it can find redemption til they do. I have much more respect for the Franca's and the Sylvia's of the world who at least apologize and then spend the rest of their career testing clean. James is a great guy. As long as he passes any tests give to him (I honestly have no idea how many he's taken) I'll believe him as much as I believe any other fighter.
GrandMaster313
5/25/08 3:25:27PM
boring fight. if aint broke dont fix it. Sherk should have tried to take B.J. down. He didn't even attempt ONCE! if I wanted to watch a boxing match i wouldn't have watched this PPV. i dont hate him but it is a giant snoozefest watching him fight sometimes.
NinjaCyborg
5/25/08 3:41:58PM

Posted by JimiMak


Posted by NinjaCyborg


Posted by Aaronno9

I agree with jackalope to, b.js striking is defiantly up there. Ive never cared for sherk tbh, before or after the steriod issue. It did start bugging me after a while when he kept denying it though, it wouldn't be the first time sombody passed a lie detector test without telling the truth. To me, this fight was more about the fact i love b.j (no pun intended). His cardio doesnt have to be amazing, just enough to last, then i dont see anybody being able to beat the guy at 55, and id struggle to pick a fight with gsp, but i think hed beat most other guys at 170 to.



You must not know what you're talking about because lie detector tests are next to impossible to beat. Maybe 40 years ago when the technology was just being researched and developed it was easy, however these days you cannot beat it, their have been numerous documented attempts to do so and all have failed. Reasearch it.
And secondly I completely believe Sherk when he says he didn't take the steroids. Give the guy a break. Unless you personally have tested his blood and documented the results of what drugs are in his system, you have no right to disrespect him for it.



You don' t know what you're talking about. Lie detector tests aren't hard to beat at all, they measure breathing blood pressure etc That's why they are not, and never will be, admissable in court.

I don't have to test him, the experts did that for me. I would be a less reliable source than them also. I'll disrespect a roider anytime I want.



I have a degree in Criminal Justice and experience with this subject. I have also done research. With a properly trained examiner, they cannot be beat.

As for your right to bash Sean Sherk... you're correct, you do have that right.
However I believe it's unfair for people to judge Sherk based on rumors and allegations, when you don't have first hand knowledge.
Maybe he did take them, maybe he didn't. Even if the California Athletic Board claims he tested positive, you will never know for sure. SO mind ya business.
Jackelope
5/25/08 3:46:16PM

Posted by JimiMak

^^Honestly I'm supercynical about the issue. I tend to think they all do them. Or are on "the next thing to be banned". I don't believe in accusing anyone w/o proof, but those who are caught must be dealt w/ harshly. Those few who refuse to admit it can find redemption til they do. I have much more respect for the Franca's and the Sylvia's of the world who at least apologize and then spend the rest of their career testing clean. James is a great guy. As long as he passes any tests give to him (I honestly have no idea how many he's taken) I'll believe him as much as I believe any other fighter.



That's cool. That's probably the best way you can view the situation. I appreciate the honesty after the fact more than the dishonesty, too.

Who's to say what Sherk did or didn't do. Right now it's legitimate to say he was a user because he came up positive. You can't deny that fact. I took 100's of drug tests when I was in the Army, and I never once came up positive. Why? Cuz I never used when I was in. I have probably taken more drug tests than Sean Sherk.. so add those figures up in regards to whether he used or not...
jiujitsufreak74
5/25/08 3:54:27PM

Posted by NinjaCyborg
I have a degree in Criminal Justice and experience with this subject. I have also done research. With a properly trained examiner, they cannot be beat.



then you must have went to McDonald's University because that is the most idiotic thing to say about lie detectors. what research have you done...because there are countless court documents that prove that lie detectors are unreliable since, as JimiMak stated, they test for bodily responses that are correlated...now this is important...not caused by lying. you can easily distort bodily responses so that you do not get caught on a lie detector test, and you can easily get a false positive just for being nervous. they are 100% unreliable in terms of bearing on a criminal case imho and that is why they are inadmissible in court. the examiner uses subjective labeling to decide whether a bodily response is lying or not...it not concrete and it is not reliable no matter who the examiner is.
NatedawgThaM
5/25/08 4:23:12PM

Posted by Jackelope

BJ is GREAT on the feet. He's got KO power in both hands (and in his knees as Sherk can attest, Caol Uno, too) he's got great killer instinct, he's got phenomenal head movement, etc. etc. He may not be legendary like Crocop, LeBanner or Semmy Schilt, but he's got all the standup skills you could ask for in a well rounded MMA fighter. BJ is great on the feet. Period.



It's the same argument for Chuck Liddell, GSP, and Rashad Evans. Who exactly have they beat that was a great technical striker themselves? BJ has taken down and submitted almost everybody with great stand he's ever faced. He lost close decisions to both GSP and Jens Pulver. He took Duane Ludwig down and subbed him. his best stand up win IMO is Din Thomas but that Din Thomas wasn't even close to the Din he is today. Chuck won a controversial decision to Vitor Beltford, was losing badly to Allistair Overeem until he gassed. Wandy I wouldn't consider a great pure technical striker since he's wild. Everybody else were wrestlers or Jujitsu guys. GSP the same thing as Chuck. His most dominant stand up performance was against one dimensional Matt Hughes the 2nd time around.

The words "Great" and "excellent" are thrown around way to loosely. I think they should be held back until the fighter actually beats somebody else with that "excellent" or "great" quality at that quality.
JimiMak
5/25/08 4:29:29PM

Even if the California Athletic Board claims he tested positive, you will never know for sure. SO mind ya business.


Why do they even test if failing meanst "you never know"?

I don't think I've ever seen someone argue so hard for subjective tests like lie detectors and argue (in the same breath) against hard scientific tests that measure the amount of chemicals in your body. For someone w/ a Crim Just degree you argue against the general consensus of all courts. But I guess you're entitled to your opinion.

Aaronno9
5/25/08 4:32:19PM

Posted by NinjaCyborg


Posted by Aaronno9

I agree with jackalope to, b.js striking is defiantly up there. Ive never cared for sherk tbh, before or after the steriod issue. It did start bugging me after a while when he kept denying it though, it wouldn't be the first time sombody passed a lie detector test without telling the truth. To me, this fight was more about the fact i love b.j (no pun intended). His cardio doesnt have to be amazing, just enough to last, then i dont see anybody being able to beat the guy at 55, and id struggle to pick a fight with gsp, but i think hed beat most other guys at 170 to.



You must not know what you're talking about because lie detector tests are next to impossible to beat. Maybe 40 years ago when the technology was just being researched and developed it was easy, however these days you cannot beat it, their have been numerous documented attempts to do so and all have failed. Reasearch it.
And secondly I completely believe Sherk when he says he didn't take the steroids. Give the guy a break. Unless you personally have tested his blood and documented the results of what drugs are in his system, you have no right to disrespect him for it.




So, i got a blood test that says sherk did take steroids, whether it was in a supplement or whatever, and the fact he was banned for said steroid use in my favour, and you've got the fact that i personally didnt oversee the testing so im wrong?

Dont try and push your opinion as fact on me. Did you personally test his blood and see it was negative? i don't think so. Sherk was found guilty of taking the juice, fact. If ive got something to say about it i will, its not like i was even bashing sherk, i was just saying i didnt like it how he kept denying it. I really dont see how thats disrespect. Thats such a stupid statement man! ive never seen a rocket launch, does that mean nobodys been to space? I didn't test hermes francas blood either, so does that mean he was innocent? Jeez.
tdietel01
5/25/08 4:45:35PM
im pretty sure the reason lie detectors arent used in court is because the people that actually think they are telling the truth (crazy people) pass the test even though thats not the real truth. if someone for example thinks the person they killed was a demon or something crazy and you ask them in a lie detector test in comes out ok. maybe sherk didnt know there were roids in the sh!it he was taking???? or maybe he really didnt do it.
Jackelope
5/25/08 5:14:33PM

Posted by NatedawgThaM


Posted by Jackelope

BJ is GREAT on the feet. He's got KO power in both hands (and in his knees as Sherk can attest, Caol Uno, too) he's got great killer instinct, he's got phenomenal head movement, etc. etc. He may not be legendary like Crocop, LeBanner or Semmy Schilt, but he's got all the standup skills you could ask for in a well rounded MMA fighter. BJ is great on the feet. Period.



It's the same argument for Chuck Liddell, GSP, and Rashad Evans. Who exactly have they beat that was a great technical striker themselves? BJ has taken down and submitted almost everybody with great stand he's ever faced. He lost close decisions to both GSP and Jens Pulver. He took Duane Ludwig down and subbed him. his best stand up win IMO is Din Thomas but that Din Thomas wasn't even close to the Din he is today. Chuck won a controversial decision to Vitor Beltford, was losing badly to Allistair Overeem until he gassed. Wandy I wouldn't consider a great pure technical striker since he's wild. Everybody else were wrestlers or Jujitsu guys. GSP the same thing as Chuck. His most dominant stand up performance was against one dimensional Matt Hughes the 2nd time around.

The words "Great" and "excellent" are thrown around way to loosely. I think they should be held back until the fighter actually beats somebody else with that "excellent" or "great" quality at that quality.



The one thing I don't think you're taking into account are the intangible factors. There's plenty of guys out there who have crisp technical skills, but don't have the heavy hands or the defense to go with them. Sure, there's the way a punch "should" look, but just because it's not technical doesn't mean it's not effective. Hell, Forrest Griffin throws some pretty technical punches, but he doesn't seem to have massive KO power on the feet. Chuck Liddell, on the other hand, throws some ugly ass looping shots, but they knock people out all the time. I agree that he hasn't fought top striking competition, though. The only way this differs from B.J. Penn is that B.J. has fought standup wars against great MMA strikers and won them. He tooled GSP up on the feet, he tooled Joe Stevenson on the feet (who actually has a pro boxing record and has been boxing for over 10 years) and even in the small exchanges with Takanori Gomi he dominated the standup war.

I agree that "great" and "excellent" are thrown around way too loosely, that's why I said "Legendary" when I described Semmy Schilt, Jerome LeBanner, and Crocop

If you want to look at it that way you can call Crocop a horrible striker in certain regards. You can call Mark Hunt a horrible striker in regards.
JoeySteel
5/25/08 6:12:16PM
yep. still hating.
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