Sherdogs P4P TOP 10

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TheGodfather1024
5/20/10 5:12:55PM
I don't understand how Sherdogs P4P rankings have Fitch at number 5. Lyoto is at ten and Shogun was at like 8. Why is Jon Fitch ranked so high? Fitch is a great fighter don't get me wrong but to be #5 on P4P is just insane.
lohmann
5/20/10 5:33:48PM
Because Jon Fitch has been the welterweight's second fiddle for so long. Outside of losing to Georges St. Pierre, he has not lost a fight at welterweight ever (17-1), including 11 wins in the UFC.

Shogun is literally on a one-fight win streak.

(I personally have Fitch a few spots behind Rua, but don't find him so high erroneous at all.)
Pookie
5/20/10 5:36:34PM
I dont know man, Fitch has looked far from dominant in many of his recent fights. And many of those fights are against second or third tier competition.
lohmann
5/20/10 5:44:36PM

Posted by Pookie

I dont know man, Fitch has looked far from dominant in many of his recent fights. And many of those fights are against second or third tier competition.



Outside of Mike Pierce (whom he beat anyway), who? The only case that can be made is that he looked "okay" against Paulo Thiago, but Thiago is not B-level competition to many people.

Fitch's resume is consistent: a lot of people think Alves is better, but Alves hasn't won a fight since 2008 while Fitch has rattled off three wins since Alves's loss to GSP.

Really can't wait for that fight.
Caesarrrr
5/20/10 5:46:01PM
Point is still that Fitch's record speaks wonders, and very few fighters can claim the same dominance in their division.
Pookie
5/20/10 6:33:18PM
Jon fitch has 3 or 4 wins against top 15 fighters in the WW division. Going 13-1 in the ufc isnt top 5 p4p impressive when you consider more than half of those matches were against mediocre competition in comparison to anyone else on the p4p list. Even his best wins he was far from dominant.

Now i see alot of people say that in the end he wins, and thats all that matters. I completely disagree. To discount ones performance in a fight that they won is to completely ignore their weaknesses as a fighter. And Jon Fitch is about as one dimensional as you get when you get to the top of the heap.

Carniero, Pierce, Wilson, Sanchez, & Paulo all made him look beatable. They all found different things they could exploit in Fitch's armor. Carniero took advantage of fitchs lacking stand-up defense. Pierce blasted him using a sprawl and brawl strategy. Wilson used Fitch's lacking footwork to his advantage. Sanchez and Thiago both attacked fitch on the ground and nearly pulled it through, though i must admit Fitch is unsubmittable.

Oh, and against the only A level fighter hes ever faced, Georges st pierre, he took the most one-sided beating ive ever seen in a title fight.

And you guys agree hes the 5th best fighter in the sport?
Caesarrrr
5/20/10 6:39:14PM
So make a case for someone below fitch, using recent results (as we're not trying to find 2008's p4p).


It doesn't matter whether we agree, I personally hate watching Fitch, and I don't think he's all that technical, I feel that he is a lay and pray warrior....but I don't work for Sherdog.
AchillesHeel
5/20/10 6:50:17PM

Posted by Caesarrrr

Point is still that Fitch's record speaks wonders, and very few fighters can claim the same dominance in their division.


Eh. I don't see what separates Fitch from Shane Carwin, Cain Velasquez, Junior Dos Santos, Rashad Evans, Kenny Florian, or Dominick Cruz.
Pookie
5/20/10 7:18:10PM

Posted by Caesarrrr

So make a case for someone below fitch, using recent results (as we're not trying to find 2008's p4p).

It doesn't matter whether we agree, I personally hate watching Fitch, and I don't think he's all that technical, I feel that he is a lay and pray warrior....but I don't work for Sherdog.



Though i agree that this doesnt matter, and really... in general what does? I disagree with your assertion to 2008 not being relevant to today.

Unless we have seen skill deterioration in recent performances, the fights of 2008 are still completely relevant as a fighter can only have 2 or 3 fights a year at most. Look at Gsp, He has shown little striking acumen since 2008 but we still understand how he destroys wrestlers with his striking when hes faced with that match-up. We reference his fights against Jon Fitch or Matt Hughes, fights that happened 2008 or prior.

Shogun has beat more ranked fighters in 2005 than fitch has in his entire career. And from that date he has shown dramatic improvement everywhere. I feel arguing recent W/L records is a far less important criteria than what has been visibly shown in the cage. And visibly anyone can tell that Shogun is a better fighter than Fitch, it doesnt even take logic.

And even Machida. Machida went 16-1 against LHW's of better quality than Fitches 17-1 record against WW's, he just has a recent loss(shogun) because he fights better fighters more often. That shouldnt count against him. Fitch has never defeated a top 5 fighter in his division. Machida has a winning record against our top 10 p4p. Now, one could argue that Machida's record against those p4p titans is misleading at best, and i would agree. But thats just reinforces my stance that W/L records miss the big picture.

****, i would argue Bj too. He has lost to edgar(arguably) and a much naturally bigger Gsp. But defending his title, he has destroyed 3-4 top 5 LW's. With Ease. No one has made diego look ridiculously underpre-pared. No-one has shut down all facets of Florians well versed skillset. No one has completely destroyed sherk(other than GSP).

Caesarrrr
5/20/10 11:19:21PM
As for you referencing those heavyweights, They're not at all similar to Fitch. None of them have ran through all of their opponents with the exception of the champ for years. keywords being: For years.

As to shogun, sure, he has only improved since 2005. the only problem being that he's lost more than once since then, one of those loses coming to Forrest Griffin, who is NOT a top ranked light heavyweight, regardless of what his fans might think.

As for Machida, I'm sure he'd have been higher than fitch, except something is tickling my memory here....OH YEAH. He just got Knocked out.
better quality fighters? I'll list them.
Stephan Bonnar - LOL Fitch would tool him.
Rich Franklin - I have absolutely no confidence in Rich. He's athletic, but hardly talented.
BJ Penn- BJ was fighting at 195 pounds, while Machida was 225. That alone makes this match null and void in considering Machida's skills.
(6 fights later)
Sokodju - LOL again. He needs to stop putting 5 bucks in his tank and just fill up.
Tito Ortiz - Don't even say it. He is a wrestler known for gnp, and he's not even that good at that anymore. Not to mention he almost submitted Machida.
Silva, Evans, and Rua are all excellent competition.

Lets compare with Fitch.

Spent the start of his career at 205. Lost twice. Went undefeated with one NC at 185.
Now WW.
Shonie Carter - Was considered very good back in the day.
Couple fluff fights.
Brock Larson - Was considered to be a new top prospect at the time.
Thiago Alves - earlier in his career, sure, but regardless, the TKO counts.
Luigi Fiorivantei - Was an up and coming fighter with talent.
Diego Sanchez - One of Diego's few loses.
Akihiri Gono (spelling is off.)
Paulo Thiago (definitely top 10 now.)
and recently a few more fluff.

Seems about like they're records and opposition are alike in my opinion, minus the recent loss that Machida has.
lohmann
5/21/10 2:10:04AM

Posted by Pookie

Shogun has beat more ranked fighters in 2005 than fitch has in his entire career. And from that date he has shown dramatic improvement everywhere. I feel arguing recent W/L records is a far less important criteria than what has been visibly shown in the cage. And visibly anyone can tell that Shogun is a better fighter than Fitch, it doesnt even take logic.



His loss against Forrest Griffin and win over Mark Coleman made Shogun look absolutely putrid. Before the Liddell fight, there was rumors that Shogun may be cut should he lose against Liddell (which thankfully he did not).

I personally have Shogun over Fitch in P4P rankings, but Fitch's skills are not to be laughed at. He's only ever been taken down by Georges St. Pierre and has basically never failed a takedown except against GSP and Pierce. His top control may be boring, but it's effective and neutralizing. He ultimately, even though he gets beat by many at other things, draws opponents into his game.


Now i see alot of people say that in the end he wins, and thats all that matters. I completely disagree. To discount ones performance in a fight that they won is to completely ignore their weaknesses as a fighter. And Jon Fitch is about as one dimensional as you get when you get to the top of the heap.

Carniero, Pierce, Wilson, Sanchez, & Paulo all made him look beatable. They all found different things they could exploit in Fitch's armor. Carniero took advantage of fitchs lacking stand-up defense. Pierce blasted him using a sprawl and brawl strategy. Wilson used Fitch's lacking footwork to his advantage. Sanchez and Thiago both attacked fitch on the ground and nearly pulled it through, though i must admit Fitch is unsubmittable.



And win/loss records are important. If someone's skilled, they win. If you don't count Liddell as a top-tier opponent at the time Shogun KO'd him, Shogun's last victory of significance was against Ricardo Arona or possibly Alistair Overeem. That's arguably two or three significant victories since 2005, whereas Jon Fitch has defeated gone 12-1 in that same time period.

His victories may not be pretty and stunning in the same way that somebody like Anderson Silva or Mauricio Rua wins, and sometimes he drops a round (or five), but winning from the strength of one facet of MMA is not a reason to discredit his greatness. Anderson Silva and Georges St. Pierre, two of the P4P kingpins, both do it, so why penalize Fitch for doing it (although less effectively, considering his lower ranking)?

And every heavyweight that Fedor Emelianenko has ever faced, with the exception of Nogueira and maybe CroCop, is not the stuff of P4P-list viability. His P4P status is borne directly out of his ability to win at any time, although lately he has looked less than dominant, being outboxed by Arlovski and making Brett Rogers look like a legitimate contender. I remember Mark Coleman outwrestling Fedor Emelianenko before being submitted, Arlovski outpunching him before being KO'd, etc. But he wins, and that ultimately matters most.


Jon fitch has 3 or 4 wins against top 15 fighters in the WW division. Going 13-1 in the ufc isnt top 5 p4p impressive when you consider more than half of those matches were against mediocre competition in comparison to anyone else on the p4p list. Even his best wins he was far from dominant.


And you would replace Fitch with Alves? Alves's most significant victories are over an aged Hughes, Parisyan, and Koscheck. Two of those fighters (Karo and Kos) lost to fighters that Fitch later beat. (Not to mention, Fitch did beat Alves.)


And even Machida. Machida went 16-1 against LHW's of better quality than Fitches 17-1 record against WW's, he just has a recent loss(shogun) because he fights better fighters more often. That shouldnt count against him. Fitch has never defeated a top 5 fighter in his division. Machida has a winning record against our top 10 p4p. Now, one could argue that Machida's record against those p4p titans is misleading at best, and i would agree. But thats just reinforces my stance that W/L records miss the big picture.


Machida's two biggest victories against natural LHWs were against Thiago Silva (whose biggest victory is over Keith Jardine) and Rashad Evans. How does that put his resume above Fitch's at WW?


****, i would argue Bj too. He has lost to edgar(arguably) and a much naturally bigger Gsp. But defending his title, he has destroyed 3-4 top 5 LW's. With Ease. No one has made diego look ridiculously underpre-pared. No-one has shut down all facets of Florians well versed skillset. No one has completely destroyed sherk(other than GSP).


I agree. That's why I have Penn (and Edgar) over Fitch.


Oh, and against the only A level fighter hes ever faced, Georges st pierre, he took the most one-sided beating ive ever seen in a title fight.


This is a straw man. GSP is a poor stylistic matchup for Jon Fitch. His strengths are cancelled out by GSP's strengths. This does not tell how Fitch fares against every other competitor at welterweight.

And Alves got taken down by a GSP with an injured groin, at will, and could not get back up. That's dominated too. Same with Penn: taken down, staying down.
AchillesHeel
5/21/10 9:11:57AM

Posted by Pookie

Look at Gsp, He has shown little striking acumen since 2008[...]


Pardon the digression, but this just isn't true. GSP out-struck both BJ Penn (in their rematch, not in the first fight) and Dan Hardy while standing.
postman
5/21/10 1:09:07PM
I don't know why ppl worry about Sherdogs rankings None of those guys like the P4P ranking none of them want to do it they just feel its their obligation as a leading MMA website. I don't really have anything to say about the rankings themselves as I don't really care for P4P. Pluse does it really matter after top 3?
Caesarrrr
5/21/10 4:10:33PM

Posted by AchillesHeel


Posted by Pookie

Look at Gsp, He has shown little striking acumen since 2008[...]


Pardon the digression, but this just isn't true. GSP out-struck both BJ Penn (in their rematch, not in the first fight) and Dan Hardy while standing.



you're right, he threw all 10 of the standings strikes from that fight....smh
AchillesHeel
5/22/10 9:17:08AM

Posted by Caesarrrr


Posted by AchillesHeel


Posted by Pookie

Look at Gsp, He has shown little striking acumen since 2008[...]


Pardon the digression, but this just isn't true. GSP out-struck both BJ Penn (in their rematch, not in the first fight) and Dan Hardy while standing.



you're right, he threw all 10 of the standings strikes from that fight....smh


What does "smh" mean?

Anyway, yeah, GSP landed 10-of-18 on Hardy, according to Fightmetric, and 12-of-19, according to Compustrike. On both scoresheets, he was better than Hardy in the standup exchanges. In fact, both records of the fight show Hardy landing ZERO punches while standing. None. Zippo. Nil. Nada. 0-for-17, according to Compustrike and 0-for-18 according to FightMetric. That's a horrendous performance in any sport. Imagine a quarterback who goes 0-for-17 in pass attempts, a basketball player who misses 17 shots in a row, a baseball player who goes hitless in 17 at-bats, or a soccer player who fails to score in 17 chances on goal. Dan Hardy got taken to school on the short bus before the fight even hit the floor.
warglory
5/22/10 12:12:11PM
lohmann, I'd give you props but I gotta spread the love. Fitch is the most underrated fighter in all of MMA, by far. He is the most dominant fighter in UFC history who has never been champion, and would easily be champion had it not been for the wall known as GSP. Jake Shields is a the hottest ticket in the WW division right now, and really showed up Hendo on the ground, and I think Fitch would have his way with Shields on the ground.

Fitch is easily top 5 p4p in the world, easily. If Fitch spent his UFC career dominating people on his feet instead of dominating them on the ground, this thread would be much different, but instead, because he grinds out his opponents, he doesn't get the respect he deserves.
Pookie
5/22/10 5:53:41PM

Posted by warglory

lohmann, I'd give you props but I gotta spread the love. Fitch is the most underrated fighter in all of MMA, by far. He is the most dominant fighter in UFC history who has never been champion, and would easily be champion had it not been for the wall known as GSP. Jake Shields is a the hottest ticket in the WW division right now, and really showed up Hendo on the ground, and I think Fitch would have his way with Shields on the ground.

Fitch is easily top 5 p4p in the world, easily. If Fitch spent his UFC career dominating people on his feet instead of dominating them on the ground, this thread would be much different, but instead, because he grinds out his opponents, he doesn't get the respect he deserves.



It doesnt have to do with his takedown centered style, it has to do with the weaknesses hes shown in the cage.
warglory
5/22/10 9:56:32PM

Posted by Pookie


Posted by warglory

lohmann, I'd give you props but I gotta spread the love. Fitch is the most underrated fighter in all of MMA, by far. He is the most dominant fighter in UFC history who has never been champion, and would easily be champion had it not been for the wall known as GSP. Jake Shields is a the hottest ticket in the WW division right now, and really showed up Hendo on the ground, and I think Fitch would have his way with Shields on the ground.

Fitch is easily top 5 p4p in the world, easily. If Fitch spent his UFC career dominating people on his feet instead of dominating them on the ground, this thread would be much different, but instead, because he grinds out his opponents, he doesn't get the respect he deserves.



It doesnt have to do with his takedown centered style, it has to do with the weaknesses hes shown in the cage.



What weaknesses? Only one person in his UFC tenure has beaten him. Hell, before his fight with GSP, no one was ever able to pass Fitch's guard, and I don't think anyone has been able to since.

Is Fitch a one dimensional fighter? Definitely, but he is very effective at that one dimension. And while it is true if we don't see vast improvements in his striking acumen that he is assuredly going to lose to GSP again, that doesn't take away from what he has accomplished in the cage.
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