Posted by Pookie
Shogun has beat more ranked fighters in 2005 than fitch has in his entire career. And from that date he has shown dramatic improvement everywhere. I feel arguing recent W/L records is a far less important criteria than what has been visibly shown in the cage. And visibly anyone can tell that Shogun is a better fighter than Fitch, it doesnt even take logic.
His loss against Forrest Griffin and win over Mark Coleman made Shogun look absolutely putrid. Before the Liddell fight, there was rumors that Shogun may be cut should he lose against Liddell (which thankfully he did not).
I personally have Shogun over Fitch in P4P rankings, but Fitch's skills are not to be laughed at. He's only ever been taken down by Georges St. Pierre and has basically never failed a takedown except against GSP and Pierce. His top control may be boring, but it's effective and neutralizing. He ultimately, even though he gets beat by many at other things, draws opponents into his game.
Now i see alot of people say that in the end he wins, and thats all that matters. I completely disagree. To discount ones performance in a fight that they won is to completely ignore their weaknesses as a fighter. And Jon Fitch is about as one dimensional as you get when you get to the top of the heap.
Carniero, Pierce, Wilson, Sanchez, & Paulo all made him look beatable. They all found different things they could exploit in Fitch's armor. Carniero took advantage of fitchs lacking stand-up defense. Pierce blasted him using a sprawl and brawl strategy. Wilson used Fitch's lacking footwork to his advantage. Sanchez and Thiago both attacked fitch on the ground and nearly pulled it through, though i must admit Fitch is unsubmittable.
And win/loss records are important. If someone's skilled, they win. If you don't count Liddell as a top-tier opponent at the time Shogun KO'd him, Shogun's last victory of significance was against Ricardo Arona or possibly Alistair Overeem. That's arguably two or three significant victories since 2005, whereas Jon Fitch has defeated gone 12-1 in that same time period.
His victories may not be pretty and stunning in the same way that somebody like Anderson Silva or Mauricio Rua wins, and sometimes he drops a round (or five), but winning from the strength of one facet of MMA is not a reason to discredit his greatness. Anderson Silva and Georges St. Pierre, two of the P4P kingpins, both do it, so why penalize Fitch for doing it (although less effectively, considering his lower ranking)?
And every heavyweight that Fedor Emelianenko has ever faced, with the exception of Nogueira and maybe CroCop, is not the stuff of P4P-list viability. His P4P status is borne directly out of his ability to win at any time, although lately he has looked less than dominant, being outboxed by Arlovski and making Brett Rogers look like a legitimate contender. I remember Mark Coleman outwrestling Fedor Emelianenko before being submitted, Arlovski outpunching him before being KO'd, etc. But he wins, and that ultimately matters most.
Jon fitch has 3 or 4 wins against top 15 fighters in the WW division. Going 13-1 in the ufc isnt top 5 p4p impressive when you consider more than half of those matches were against mediocre competition in comparison to anyone else on the p4p list. Even his best wins he was far from dominant.
And you would replace Fitch with Alves? Alves's most significant victories are over an aged Hughes, Parisyan, and Koscheck. Two of those fighters (Karo and Kos) lost to fighters that Fitch later beat. (Not to mention, Fitch did beat Alves.)
And even Machida. Machida went 16-1 against LHW's of better quality than Fitches 17-1 record against WW's, he just has a recent loss(shogun) because he fights better fighters more often. That shouldnt count against him. Fitch has never defeated a top 5 fighter in his division. Machida has a winning record against our top 10 p4p. Now, one could argue that Machida's record against those p4p titans is misleading at best, and i would agree. But thats just reinforces my stance that W/L records miss the big picture.
Machida's two biggest victories against natural LHWs were against Thiago Silva (whose biggest victory is over Keith Jardine) and Rashad Evans. How does that put his resume above Fitch's at WW?
****, i would argue Bj too. He has lost to edgar(arguably) and a much naturally bigger Gsp. But defending his title, he has destroyed 3-4 top 5 LW's. With Ease. No one has made diego look ridiculously underpre-pared. No-one has shut down all facets of Florians well versed skillset. No one has completely destroyed sherk(other than GSP).
I agree. That's why I have Penn (and Edgar) over Fitch.
Oh, and against the only A level fighter hes ever faced, Georges st pierre, he took the most one-sided beating ive ever seen in a title fight.
This is a straw man. GSP is a poor stylistic matchup for Jon Fitch. His strengths are cancelled out by GSP's strengths. This does not tell how Fitch fares against every other competitor at welterweight.
And Alves got taken down by a GSP with an injured groin, at will, and could not get back up. That's dominated too. Same with Penn: taken down, staying down.