Scoring Question

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Tein_Lung
2/21/08 1:44:55PM
on in the ground game should the guy trying the subs win the round or escaping them??


i have herd arguments for both, personally i think the one trying should get the nod... The reason is if standing and you almost KO a guy you look good... same should go if you nearly sub someone
Kpro
2/21/08 1:54:52PM
Really depends on how active the guy on top is, if he's trying to land any shots or go for subs of his own, or if he's just trying to control top position and thats it.

But I do think judges wrongly give it to the top guy even if he just lays there.
Tein_Lung
2/21/08 2:17:16PM

Posted by Kpro

Really depends on how active the guy on top is, if he's trying to land any shots or go for subs of his own, or if he's just trying to control top position and thats it.

But I do think judges wrongly give it to the top guy even if he just lays there.

i agree just being on top does not equal winning... look at the guy like Mir BJ the Diaz's... all of then seen to do better on their backs then on top... it seems wrong to simply judge whos on top
gsquat
2/21/08 3:36:35PM
Its tough to say what the judges look at. After someone goes for a submission and fails, they've effectively done nothing if they're still mounted. So long at the person on top stays agressive, he wins it. Thats the risk with jujitsu. If all you want to do is try for the submission win and miss you risk getting lnp'd for 3 or 5 rounds, which usually results in a victory for the one on top.
stock
2/21/08 4:08:57PM

Posted by Tein_Lung

The reason is if standing and you almost KO a guy you look good... same should go if you nearly sub someone



Not necessarily apples to apples.

If you almost KO a guy, you definitely did some dammage. If you almost submit a guy, you may not have caused any damage at all.

The way I look at it, when you are on top, you are always in a dominant position. I don't see how trying (but constantly failing) submissions puts you in a better position from a scoring perspective.
I don't think a guy necessarily gets points for avoiding submissions, but he gets points for keeping himself in a dominant position.

This reminds me of the Florian/Sherk fight. Florian tried probably dozens of submissions in that fight, but Sherk was strong enough to avoid all of them. Sherk didn't get any points for avoiding the submissions, but for keeping the dominant position. I agree with that.

Dastardly1
2/22/08 12:02:32AM
in Pride they awarded and encouraged guys to be aggressive from the bottom and to look for the submission.
Tein_Lung
2/22/08 1:19:05AM

Posted by stock


Posted by Tein_Lung

The reason is if standing and you almost KO a guy you look good... same should go if you nearly sub someone



Not necessarily apples to apples.

If you almost KO a guy, you definitely did some dammage. If you almost submit a guy, you may not have caused any damage at all.

The way I look at it, when you are on top, you are always in a dominant position. I don't see how trying (but constantly failing) submissions puts you in a better position from a scoring perspective.
I don't think a guy necessarily gets points for avoiding submissions, but he gets points for keeping himself in a dominant position.

This reminds me of the Florian/Sherk fight. Florian tried probably dozens of submissions in that fight, but Sherk was strong enough to avoid all of them. Sherk didn't get any points for avoiding the submissions, but for keeping the dominant position. I agree with that.


but at the same time Sherk didn't do really anything but hold Kenny down.. you think winning a fight comes from just holding a skinny dude down while he beats you up from the bottom, because Sherk was lumped up and cut up by Kenny
stock
2/22/08 9:45:12AM

Posted by Tein_Lung


Posted by stock


Posted by Tein_Lung

The reason is if standing and you almost KO a guy you look good... same should go if you nearly sub someone



Not necessarily apples to apples.

If you almost KO a guy, you definitely did some dammage. If you almost submit a guy, you may not have caused any damage at all.

The way I look at it, when you are on top, you are always in a dominant position. I don't see how trying (but constantly failing) submissions puts you in a better position from a scoring perspective.
I don't think a guy necessarily gets points for avoiding submissions, but he gets points for keeping himself in a dominant position.

This reminds me of the Florian/Sherk fight. Florian tried probably dozens of submissions in that fight, but Sherk was strong enough to avoid all of them. Sherk didn't get any points for avoiding the submissions, but for keeping the dominant position. I agree with that.


but at the same time Sherk didn't do really anything but hold Kenny down.. you think winning a fight comes from just holding a skinny dude down while he beats you up from the bottom, because Sherk was lumped up and cut up by Kenny



I felt Florian was equally (if not more) banged up after the fight.
I am just saying, when all else is equal, you have to give it to the guy that was in a more dominant position. I really don't think Kenny wanted to be in the position he was in. If a fighter does not want to be on his back, he needs to practice better takedown deffense. If that isn't going to cut it, then he needs to work on getting back to his feet better. If that isn't going to work, he needs better sweeps. If all that fails, he needs better BJJ to end it. When ALL that fails, I give it to the guys that is on top.
fullerene
2/22/08 1:00:05PM
I agree with the TS that just escaping a guy's offense shouldn't win rounds any more than being punched and not going down should win you the standup.

I think this is an area where judging needs to improve and recyclying boxing judges vs. getting guys who've done or judged grappling competitions is part of the problem. If you're grappling and the guy on the bottom keeps going for sub attempts both the top and the bottom guy know who's winning the match (the guy trying to sub). If the top guy is punching that adds complexity, but in the pure case of top guy launching no offense the bottom guy should be given the round IMO.
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