How do you score this round?

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PABLOMAFIOSO
10/11/11 9:11:23AM
I would appreciate some views on this scenario:

Fighter A takes down fighter B at the beginning of the round and improves his position from guard to mount then eventually to the back.

He spends the entire round controlling fighter B on the ground continually looking for the sub.

The round consists of about 4 mins of fighter A maintaining the back constantly landing non powerful shots but not being able to get the sub.

How would you score that round?

Does this constitute a 10-8 or is it a 10-9?

Any reasons given would also be appreciated

Theoutlaw08
10/11/11 10:05:27AM
I would say 10-9. If he didnt do any major damage or have any possible subs. If he just gave a few sub attempts and didnt land and huge shots. I say 10-9
Pookie
10/11/11 10:35:24AM
10-9
Twenty20Dollars
10/11/11 10:44:19AM
10-9, b/c he wasnt landing powerful shots or didnt seemed to have the other fighter in any serious danger.
kingsmasher
10/11/11 11:05:03AM
10 -9 cause then basically a lot more fights would be 10 -8 rounds and then there would be a huge upswing in draws...10 -8 rounds can only be very significant damage and a guy holding on for dear life and really only the bell saving him...
grappler0000
10/11/11 11:34:33AM

Posted by kingsmasher

10 -9 cause then basically a lot more fights would be 10 -8 rounds and then there would be a huge upswing in draws...10 -8 rounds can only be very significant damage and a guy holding on for dear life and really only the bell saving him...



Then explain what a 10-7 is.
PABLOMAFIOSO
10/11/11 12:09:06PM
So nobody thinks maintaining a dominant position (not just lay n pray) and attempting subs makes it a 10-8? There was enough activity for the ref to allow the fight to stay on the floor for the entire round.
grappler0000
10/11/11 12:33:44PM

Posted by PABLOMAFIOSO

So nobody thinks maintaining a dominant position (not just lay n pray) and attempting subs makes it a 10-8? There was enough activity for the ref to allow the fight to stay on the floor for the entire round.



It probably should be a 10-8. The problem is that fans get conditioned by the actions of the judges...and I've yet to see a judge award a 10-8 (at least that I can remember) round for grappling. There is a definite double standard at play.
scoozna
10/11/11 12:50:36PM

Posted by grappler0000


Posted by PABLOMAFIOSO

So nobody thinks maintaining a dominant position (not just lay n pray) and attempting subs makes it a 10-8? There was enough activity for the ref to allow the fight to stay on the floor for the entire round.



It probably should be a 10-8. The problem is that fans get conditioned by the actions of the judges...and I've yet to see a judge award a 10-8 (at least that I can remember) round for grappling. There is a definite double standard at play.



I have to agree here...I was tempted to say 10-9 because significant damage did not occur. I do feel like I've been conditioned by the judges to the point where I can't fathom a 10-7 round. It would seem that fights get stopped before we even get to what would constitute a 10-7 round.
Twenty20Dollars
10/11/11 12:53:35PM
Maintaining a dominant position doesn't mean he was close to finishing the fight. Maybe if he came really close on a few submission attempts, then maybe.
postman
10/11/11 12:57:25PM
I think 10-9 is proper. but see what your thinking as well.
jiujitsufreak74
10/11/11 1:02:42PM
based on the way the rules are written right now it is definitely a 10-8.

for my scoring personally, a 10-8 should come with damage. in your scenario, the guy is landing non-powerful shots, but what i am curious about is what types of subs is he going for? was he close to getting the subs? did the subs do damage even though they weren't successful?

let's say he went for RNC's, a few key locks, and maybe one armbar. if none of them were even close, i would lean to more of a 10-9 (that is assuming the striking Fighter A landed was negligible). only if some of them were close to finishing or actually did damage would i score it a 10-8. BUT, under the unified rules this round is clearly a 10-8.

EDIT- however, 4 minutes of unanswered punches, no matter how weak, make me lean toward a 10-8. even if the punches are not powerful 4 minutes of them definitely would rack up some damage. the combination of unanswered punches, sub attempts and positional dominance would lead me to score a 10-8. only if there was little to no striking would i consider it a 10-9, and again that is assuming the subs weren't close to finishing or doing damage.
gartface
10/11/11 1:09:28PM

Posted by jiujitsufreak74

based on the way the rules are written right now it is definitely a 10-8.

for my scoring personally, a 10-8 should come with damage. in your scenario, the guy is landing non-powerful shots, but what i am curious about is what types of subs is he going for? was he close to getting the subs? did the subs do damage even though they weren't successful?

let's say he went for RNC's, a few key locks, and maybe one armbar. if none of them were even close, i would lean to more of a 10-9 (that is assuming the striking Fighter A landed was negligible). only if some of them were close to finishing or actually did damage would i score it a 10-8. BUT, under the unified rules this round is clearly a 10-8.

EDIT- however, 4 minutes of unanswered punches, no matter how weak, make me lean toward a 10-8. even if the punches are not powerful 4 minutes of them definitely would rack up some damage. the combination of unanswered punches, sub attempts and positional dominance would lead me to score a 10-8. only if there was little to no striking would i consider it a 10-9, and again that is assuming the subs weren't close to finishing or doing damage.



Couldn't have written it better myself. By the letter of the law, the description given constitutes a 10-8. I had never given much thought to a 10-7 round before because they're so rare, but Helwani brought up on the MMA Hour that he scored the first round of the second Maynard/Edgar fight as a 10-7 round. Interesting...
PABLOMAFIOSO
10/11/11 5:51:07PM

Posted by jiujitsufreak74

based on the way the rules are written right now it is definitely a 10-8.

for my scoring personally, a 10-8 should come with damage. in your scenario, the guy is landing non-powerful shots, but what i am curious about is what types of subs is he going for? was he close to getting the subs? did the subs do damage even though they weren't successful?



In this case the fighter went for numerous RNC attempts. There was one arm bar attempt but the closest he came to a finish was with the chokes. The punches done some damage but it wasn't close to being stopped (he was determined to get the sub).

Kpro
10/11/11 6:03:40PM
if Brimage hadn't been striking while Caraway was on his back, that's about exactly what happened in the first round of the Caraway/Brimage fight 2 weeks ago on The Ultimate Fighter.
jiujitsufreak74
10/11/11 6:11:49PM

Posted by PABLOMAFIOSO

In this case the fighter went for numerous RNC attempts. There was one arm bar attempt but the closest he came to a finish was with the chokes. The punches done some damage but it wasn't close to being stopped (he was determined to get the sub).




i would have to give it 10-8. Fighter B mounted 0 offense, was defending constantly and was in danger from time to time. when a guy has 0 offense and the other fighter goes for the finish and lands significant offense than it is a 10-8 imo and in the actual rules.
BeeR
10/11/11 6:17:40PM
10-9.
attempting submissions is attacking, but not causing any damage, if fighter B fights off all these submission attempts, then he is still "fight aware" and defending meaning fighter A isnt dominating, same if fighter B miracously escapes constant sub attempts, no grounds for a 10-8,, if fighter B was just giving up subs and fighter A cant finish then fighter A sucks and also isnt dominating enough for a 10-8.

Budgellism
10/11/11 7:04:17PM

Posted by PABLOMAFIOSO

I would appreciate some views on this scenario:

Fighter A takes down fighter B at the beginning of the round and improves his position from guard to mount then eventually to the back.

He spends the entire round controlling fighter B on the ground continually looking for the sub.

The round consists of about 4 mins of fighter A maintaining the back constantly landing non powerful shots but not being able to get the sub.

How would you score that round?

Does this constitute a 10-8 or is it a 10-9?

Any reasons given would also be appreciated




This kind of depends for me. Was Fighter A landing any punches on his way to back control? Were any of these power shots? Did Fighter B put up much of a struggle before Fighter A reached back control, or did Fighter A just go right to back control then looked for the sub and punched this dude repeatedly? Was Fighter B throwing any punches or elbows from the bottom?
PABLOMAFIOSO
10/11/11 8:36:14PM
Yes there were punches landed in gaining mount and forcing fighter B to give his back. There was resistance but the advantage on the ground was telling. The only shots landed by fighter B were sort of behind his own head hammer fists (fighter A being on the bottom controling back position with a body triangle for the majority).
sbulldavid
10/11/11 8:36:31PM
10-9 This always ends up an advantage towards wrestling. Why don't we award a round for a guy that pulls guard and goes for a triangle then lands a hammerfist or two off of his back ? Why do we award a round for a takedown after he gets stuffed 5 times ? What if I just want to cuddle for 25 minutes ? I would rather get taken down than punched in the face any day of the week.
jiujitsufreak74
10/11/11 9:25:41PM

Posted by sbulldavid

10-9 This always ends up an advantage towards wrestling. Why don't we award a round for a guy that pulls guard and goes for a triangle then lands a hammerfist or two off of his back ? Why do we award a round for a takedown after he gets stuffed 5 times ? What if I just want to cuddle for 25 minutes ? I would rather get taken down than punched in the face any day of the week.



this doesn't really apply to the question. in this scenario Fighter B did not land any offense at all, Fighter A not only secured a takedown but passed guard to mount and back control for 4 minutes while going for submissions. he landed the majority of the strikes as Fighter B could only muster backward punching. that isn't the same as getting a takedown stuffed 5 times before an eventual brief takedown

on a side note, i read an article on BloddyELbow that states that the unified rules actually state that a fighter who defends the takedown is winning and the one who had it stuffed is losing.
Budgellism
10/11/11 9:25:46PM

Posted by PABLOMAFIOSO

Yes there were punches landed in gaining mount and forcing fighter B to give his back. There was resistance but the advantage on the ground was telling. The only shots landed by fighter B were sort of behind his own head hammer fists (fighter A being on the bottom controling back position with a body triangle for the majority).



Then I would give it a 10-8 as long as he was continually working the entire time. There are some guys in this sport that just can't be RNC'd anymore. I find this the same with guillotines. A fighter not landing any significant punches in a round is pretty much a 10-8 in my books if he's getting worked the entire time.
grappler0000
10/11/11 10:20:34PM

Posted by jiujitsufreak74

on a side note, i read an article on BloddyELbow that states that the unified rules actually state that a fighter who defends the takedown is winning and the one who had it stuffed is losing.



If all else is equal, then yes, that would be the case. Successfully stuffing takedowns equates to Octagon control.
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