'Round and 'round, we go: The UFC should allow fights to end in a Draw.

MMAPlayground.com » MMA General » UFC Forum » 'Round and 'round, we go: The UFC should allow fights to end in a Draw.
POLL: Would you want to see fights end in a Draw?
Yes! 31% (15)
No! 54% (26)
Maybe... 15% (7)
AchillesHeel
4/4/09 11:02:12AM
I think this has been addressed around here before, but not lately, and with Martin Kampmann's win over Carlos Condit, we have yet another match to point to that illustrates some of the problems with the UFC's "Ten-Point Must" scoring system. One of those problems is that Draws are exceedingly rare. They're technically possible, with point deductions for rules infractions and the like.

The question remains, though: Would American sports fans abide matches ending inconclusively? Many people insist they wouldn't, and won't. I believe the NHL has eliminated draws, although I don't know whether watering down their sport has actually resulted in greater attendance, attention, or revenues, which I assume was their motivation for the change. Most of the actual hockey fans I know here in Massachusetts dislike the lack of tie games. When Major League Soccer started out, they didn't allow tie games, but there was such an uproar from the soccer community, they changed their rules after a few years to conform to the global standard, and have subsequently flourished as a new sports league in a crowded marketplace.

My conclusion is that American sports fans not only can stomach a match ending in a draw, they actually prefer it when the competitors deserve to be labeled a tie. Furthermore, I think the inclusion of Draws in the UFC scoring system would present a marketing opportunity. Kampmann and Condit are natural candidates for a rematch, perhaps after each fighter has had one fight in the interim to hone his game and build anticipation.

Anyway, this web site probably doesn't capture the casual American sports fan (no offense ). Probably 99% of you were MMA fans before you arrived here, and we may not represent the bulk of the people that Dana White & Co are trying to sell their product to. We probably represent the core that he can afford to make assumptions of. Nevertheless, I think a case can be made for seriously reconsidering the UFC match-scoring system, and for incorporating a significant potential for matches such as Kampann-vs-Condit to be declared a draw.

(Incidentally, I have no clue how the competitors would feel about a match of theirs being officially ruled a Draw. Some might prefer the "L" to an inconclusive ending. But maybe not. If any of you are fighters, or know a fighter, I'd be curious to hear what you/they have to say about the idea.)
Twenty20Dollars
4/4/09 11:26:46AM
Tito Ortiz vs Rashad Evans.


Fights should not end in a draw, because you dont really go anywhere up or down in the weight class.

Also what about win bonuses? Do they just not get their win bonus because its a draw? Seriously, fights should have a winner and loser. Unless its something, like a point deduction.
Franklinfan47
4/4/09 11:34:17AM

Posted by Twenty20Dollars

Tito Ortiz vs Rashad Evans.


Fights should not end in a draw, because you dont really go anywhere up or down in the weight class.

Also what about win bonuses? Do they just not get their win bonus because its a draw? Seriously, fights should have a winner and loser. Unless its something, like a point deduction.



If the fight is truly dead even, its necessary, but its very unconclusive for the fans.
Khaos
4/4/09 11:37:29AM
I think there should be more draws, though I personally don't like them, if it's a close, close fight make it a draw, if it's not pick a winner.
breakdown5
4/4/09 11:38:32AM
This is more a question about the nature of the ten point must system. With this scoring system in place, the chances of seeing a draw are slim. But then again, you don't see a ton of draws coming out of Japan either, where they score the fights differently.

Also, the state athletic commissions choose the scoring method, its not up to the UFC how the fights are scored. I doubt we'll ever see the ten point must system be replaced because of boxing's history in the US, even though the Japanese scoring method is way better.
DevonFoxy
4/4/09 11:57:45AM
I personally wouldn't mind seeing draws when the fights should end in a draw. Personally I saw the Forrest Griffin vs Rampage Jackson fight as a draw and really couldn't see Forrest winning that fight.

I also thought that the Kampmann vs Condit fight should have ruled a draw based on the first round being so close and clearly the other two rounds split. That fight was so close and fights like that one career is going to get hurt when no one can honestly tell me without a doubt that Kampmann won that fight, So i personally wouldn't mind a draw.
Twenty20Dollars
4/4/09 12:02:22PM
Even if a fight is close, Im sure if you really break down the fight. You can see which fighter did more. I mean winning the fight could mean you just pushed the pace and were the more aggressive fighter. Those little things the judges are looking for.

Draws are boring, most people want winners and losers. Would you like to see a draw in a title fight?
tepid55
4/4/09 12:09:47PM
I think draws should happen in a title fight where there is a champion. I think the chalenger should have KO, TKO, or submit the champion to win the title. If a title fight where a champion is known goes the distance, it should be an automatic draw.
prozacnation1978
4/4/09 12:47:54PM
i don't think so
ncordless
4/4/09 1:24:28PM

then again, you don't see a ton of draws coming out of Japan either, where they score the fights differently
... I disagree. Shooto is notorious for draws. A quick scan of some japanese fighters' records shows more draws than is customary for US fighters.

I would not want to see a scoring system like K-1's where draws are the norm per round unless someone really takes it big. At the same time, I think it is ridiculous that almost no 10-10 rounds are given in the US. I believe that the real problem is not a lack of draws in fights but a lack of draws in rounds. The ten point must system itself is not the problem, it is the judges' implementation of the system without utilizing 10/10 rounds that is the problem. An example is when fighter #1 barely squeeks by rnd 1+2... winning rounds that could have gone either way and therefore are essentially tied. Then fighter #2 clearly wins round three. fighter #1 wins the fight 29/28 in a fight that could have been decided in a way that more truly reflects the fight... either 30-29 for fighter #2 or if fighter #1 did win a round 29-29.


tied very clear
close winner
example 1
rnd 1 rnd 2 rnd 3 total
fighter 1 10 10 9 29
fighter 2 9 9 10 28

example 2
rnd 1 rnd 2 rnd 3 total
fighter 1 10 10 9 29
fighter 2 10 10 10 30

example 3
rnd 1 rnd 2 rnd 3 total
fighter 1 10 10 9 29
fighter 2 10 9 10 29

IMO, either ex. 2 or 3 is a more accurate reflection of how the fight went.
breakdown5
4/4/09 1:45:11PM

Posted by ncordless


then again, you don't see a ton of draws coming out of Japan either, where they score the fights differently
... I disagree. Shooto is notorious for draws. A quick scan of some japanese fighters' records shows more draws than is customary for US fighters.

I would not want to see a scoring system like K-1's where draws are the norm per round unless someone really takes it big. At the same time, I think it is ridiculous that almost no 10-10 rounds are given in the US. I believe that the real problem is not a lack of draws in fights but a lack of draws in rounds. The ten point must system itself is not the problem, it is the judges' implementation of the system without utilizing 10/10 rounds that is the problem. An example is when fighter #1 barely squeeks by rnd 1+2... winning rounds that could have gone either way and therefore are essentially tied. Then fighter #2 clearly wins round three. fighter #1 wins the fight 29/28 in a fight that could have been decided in a way that more truly reflects the fight... either 30-29 for fighter #2 or if fighter #1 did win a round 29-29.


tied very clear
close winner
example 1
rnd 1 rnd 2 rnd 3 total
fighter 1 10 10 9 29
fighter 2 9 9 10 28

example 2
rnd 1 rnd 2 rnd 3 total
fighter 1 10 10 9 29
fighter 2 10 10 10 30

example 3
rnd 1 rnd 2 rnd 3 total
fighter 1 10 10 9 29
fighter 2 10 9 10 29

IMO, either ex. 2 or 3 is a more accurate reflection of how the fight went.





Great post. I was thinking more of the two major Japanese promotions (DREAM and Sengoku) and the more recent cards. But you are absolutely correct.

PROPS
kopower
4/4/09 2:16:51PM
I think if it ends in a draw the fairest way to settle it is a good ol' fashioned game of Rock, Paper, Scissors.
EvenFlow
4/4/09 2:27:11PM
A draw is like kissing your sister with a mustard aftertaste. Its as simple as this, if its a "draw" after 3 rounds let it go another round and only count that round as the fight if its a draw again go another round etc until a winner is found, except for title fights in which case you have to definitivly beat the champ.
PABLOMAFIOSO
4/4/09 2:35:37PM
You have to have draws. A fighter does not deserve a loss because the fight was too close to call. you hardly get draws in the UFC any more and I think some people just end up on the wrong end of bad decisions.
DCRage
4/4/09 2:57:57PM

Posted by breakdown5

This is more a question about the nature of the ten point must system. With this scoring system in place, the chances of seeing a draw are slim. But then again, you don't see a ton of draws coming out of Japan either, where they score the fights differently.

Also, the state athletic commissions choose the scoring method, its not up to the UFC how the fights are scored. I doubt we'll ever see the ten point must system be replaced because of boxing's history in the US, even though the Japanese scoring method is way better.


Read enough Shooto results and you'll think differently.
postman
4/4/09 6:44:23PM
I was talking to my buddies about this and one guy said allow rounds be 10-10 and if the fight is a draw have another round. I can't decide if I like this or not on one hand you have a great fight like condit Kampman but what the fight is a turd who wants to see these two guys do more of nothing
bls1919
4/4/09 7:23:35PM
Instead of ending fights in draws, they need a more uniform set of criteria for judging and some testing/training for judges. Get all of them on the same page.
mkiv9secsupra
4/5/09 12:23:59PM
What could draws do to progress the sport itself or a fighter's career? Absolutely nothing. It wont draw more sales and it will just destroy any kind of ranking system. Pointless

On a side note i wouldnt mind seeing a draw if they added a sudden death round afterward to determine the winner. Id prefer the rules to stay the same and do a major overhaul on the judges instead though.
slapshot
4/5/09 6:51:30PM
I actually would rather they just allow for the tie and kick it up to a sudden death round myself, adds some suspense to close fights.

hippysmacker
4/7/09 6:13:05AM
I am completely for it.Tito/Vitor , Melendez/Kawajiri, Shogun/Lil Nog, Forest/Page, and now Kampmann/Condit off the top of my head are all to close to call IMO.
AchillesHeel
4/7/09 9:52:56AM
The question that needs to be asked about a 4th round is whether it would actually resolve anything. That is, if they're tied after 3 rounds, how many fights will end conclusively during a 4th? We'd all like to see more of a match like Condit-v-Kampann, but what are the odds that one of those fighters would have separated himself as a clear winner? My feeling is that a 4th round would have ended just as inconclusively, perhaps more so, since you'd be looking at an even number of rounds in a round-by-round scoring system. I think adding a 4th round to fights that are already close might create more fights that should be counted as Draws, not fewer.

As for rankings, win bonuses, and the like, there are any number of things that would have to adapt to any change in the sport, but that's not really a good argument against the particular change, per se. It's possible, for instance, that making win bonuses even more contingent on trying to finish the fight would discourage fighters whose styles result in a lot of judges' decisions. Whether that would be a good thing or not is an open question, I suppose, but we don't apologize to fighters coming to the U.S. from Japan for making them adapt to our rules. Well, maybe some of us do, but I don't. They professionals. They can handle it.



As an afterthought, any new rule that discouraged fighting to a Decision could balance the dominance of wrestling in American MMA, since it's wrestling that least-often finishes a fight. As above, whether or not wrestling is too prevalent or too rewarded in the US is open to debate.
slapshot
4/7/09 10:22:45AM

Posted by AchillesHeel

The question that needs to be asked about a 4th round is whether it would actually resolve anything. That is, if they're tied after 3 rounds, how many fights will end conclusively during a 4th? We'd all like to see more of a match like Condit-v-Kampann, but what are the odds that one of those fighters would have separated himself as a clear winner? My feeling is that a 4th round would have ended just as inconclusively, perhaps more so, since you'd be looking at an even number of rounds in a round-by-round scoring system. I think adding a 4th round to fights that are already close might create more fights that should be counted as Draws, not fewer.

As for rankings, win bonuses, and the like, there are any number of things that would have to adapt to any change in the sport, but that's not really a good argument against the particular change, per se. It's possible, for instance, that making win bonuses even more contingent on trying to finish the fight would discourage fighters whose styles result in a lot of judges' decisions. Whether that would be a good thing or not is an open question, I suppose, but we don't apologize to fighters coming to the U.S. from Japan for making them adapt to our rules. Well, maybe some of us do, but I don't. They professionals. They can handle it.



As an afterthought, any new rule that discouraged fighting to a Decision could balance the dominance of wrestling in American MMA, since it's wrestling that least-often finishes a fight. As above, whether or not wrestling is too prevalent or too rewarded in the US is open to debate.



It cant create more fights that should be draws if the criteria for going to a fourth round is that it must be a draw in the first place...

Sudden death rounds are kind of sketchy in a way but I like the idea of adding a fourth round after a draw much better then letting a fight end in a draw.

Some of the best fights in MMA have ended in a decision and I dont like the idea of fiddling with a fighters fight style just to make the casual and/or boxing fan happy all that dose is give strikers a unfair advantage.
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