richieb19's MMA Hall of Fame (20/02/07)

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JunCTion
2/21/07 7:14:47PM

Posted by richieb19


Posted by Snacks


Posted by richieb19


Posted by Snacks


Posted by richieb19


Posted by Snacks

Also, I'd have given you props had you mentioned ANY of the old school Shooters, as opposed to the useless Pancrase fighters who worked fights.

PARAESTRA SAIKOU!

Thats a little harsh, and claiming that old Pancrase fighters performed worked shoots in Pancrase is very misinformed.



Ken Shamrock and Masakatsu Funaki disagree.

Really, and what proof of that do you have? Aside from popular claims that people make, there has never been one recorded work that I've ever heard about in Pancrase. I agree that there most likely has been worked shoots in the Pancrase org, but they have also been claimed in both the UFC and Pride. So please either come up with some useful information to back up your claim, or just keep your imaginary facts to yourself...




Rickson is 400-0, Takada legitimately beat Coleman, Otsuka, and Sturgeon; Kimo submitted Sakuraba, and Dan Severen is one of the most legitimate fighters in all of MMA..

Oh, and Shamrock-Hume continues to a shining example of what Pancrase is all about.



Coleman hinted to letting Takada beat him so it's no big surprize there. I don't even think Sakuraba / Kimo was never even billed as an MMA match to start with, and how does Rickson's inflated record relate to a worked bout?

Last I remember Shamrock / Hume was called an exhibition match due to Hume having been injured before the fight. Either way, the only that fight has ever been concidered a work is because of Shamrock's finish on Hume, which IMO isn't much of a reason at all seeing as Ken hugely outweighed and outpowered Hume, and had an American Pro-Wrestling background long before joining Pancrase.




19, your getting pretty worked up when snacks is only abiding by what your disclaimer said.


Posted by richieb19

Disclaimer: Please realize that the list mentioned above is completely subjective, but if you feel that I have left something important out, please add. If you wish to mention a fighter who you think is deserving of being in this list, please feel free to share.



richieb19
2/21/07 7:24:36PM

Posted by Snacks


Posted by richieb19


Posted by Snacks


Posted by richieb19


Posted by Snacks


Posted by richieb19


Posted by Snacks

Also, I'd have given you props had you mentioned ANY of the old school Shooters, as opposed to the useless Pancrase fighters who worked fights.

PARAESTRA SAIKOU!

Thats a little harsh, and claiming that old Pancrase fighters performed worked shoots in Pancrase is very misinformed.



Ken Shamrock and Masakatsu Funaki disagree.

Really, and what proof of that do you have? Aside from popular claims that people make, there has never been one recorded work that I've ever heard about in Pancrase. I agree that there most likely has been worked shoots in the Pancrase org, but they have also been claimed in both the UFC and Pride. So please either come up with some useful information to back up your claim, or just keep your imaginary facts to yourself...



Rickson is 400-0, Takada legitimately beat Coleman, Otsuka, and Sturgeon; Kimo submitted Sakuraba, and Dan Severen is one of the most legitimate fighters in all of MMA..

Oh, and Shamrock-Hume continues to a shining example of what Pancrase is all about.



Coleman hinted to letting Takada beat him so it's no big surprize there. I don't even think Sakuraba / Kimo was ever even billed as an MMA match to start with, and how does Rickson's inflated record relate to a worked bout?

Last I remember Shamrock / Hume was called an exhibition match due to Hume having been injured before the fight. Either way, the only reason that fight has ever been concidered a work is because of Shamrock's finish on Hume, which IMO isn't much of a reason at all seeing as Ken hugely outweighed and outpowered Hume, and had an American Pro-Wrestling background long before joining Pancrase.



Pancrase has stated they had worked matches, I REALLY hope you realize that.



The only thing I've ever heard is them not denying having had worked matches, which really means the same thing anyways. I just don't understand how this makes you think that all (or a majority) fights in Pancrase where works. The only ones I've ever heard that where rumoured to be worked (and remember, it's just a rumour) are the following:

Ken Shamrock Vs. Matt Hume: Because of the suplex finish.
Ken Shamrock Vs. Minoru Suzuki II: Because people thought that Panrcase didn't want their champion to lose in a title fight in the UFC.
Masakatsu Funaki Vs. Jason Delucia: Because Delucia won via kneebar.
Masakatsu Funaki Vs. Minoru Suzuki: Not even sure why.

...and maybe a few that I might be forgetting

You have to realize that these are all rumours that got out of hand when people got wind that Pancrase did in fact have worked shoots, there is no legitamate proof that suggests that any of these fights where works. Secondly Funaki, being the creator of the organization and a much better fighter than most at the time carried many fights in order to build stars, carrying a fight also does not equate to a work.
richieb19
2/21/07 7:26:23PM

Posted by JunCTion
19, your getting pretty worked up when snacks is only abiding by what your disclaimer said.


No, I'm getting worked up because hes trying to pass rumour off as truth. Claiming that a fighter worked fights without any proof is disrespectful.
JunCTion
2/21/07 7:36:49PM

Posted by richieb19


Posted by JunCTion
19, your getting pretty worked up when snacks is only abiding by what your disclaimer said.


No, I'm getting worked up because hes trying to pass rumour off as truth. Claiming that a fighter worked fights without any proof is disrespectful.



well i dont know either way but this has become a richieb19 vs snacks thread.
but i do like your opening thoughts
Manfred
2/22/07 1:04:49AM
PROPS ANSWER FROM HIPPYSMACKER (MOD)

You can only give a second one to somebody after you have given out 10 total. There is a limit of like 8 to 10 a day( not sure of the exact number. I give them out all the time( becsuse I have to read every post and see a lot of good stuff) and every day it tells me that I can't give them to someone and I've usually reached the limit in a 24 hour period. I try to give prop's to not only good post, but someon posting a good interview and especially someone trying to make peace or town down a thread where 2 guys are "Sherdogging " it. Hope that helps


hippysmacker
2/22/07 2:47:12AM

Posted by Lay_N_Pray

I love that list, but I think you should add Pat Militech as a coach in the HOF. He has had plenty of champions in his camp



Good point, I second that notion. He was also the first UFC welterweight champ and had the most successful title defenses till Hughes broke it at that weight.
richieb19
2/22/07 8:11:48AM

Posted by hippysmacker


Posted by Lay_N_Pray

I love that list, but I think you should add Pat Militech as a coach in the HOF. He has had plenty of champions in his camp



Good point, I second that notion. He was also the first UFC welterweight champ and had the most successful title defenses till Hughes broke it at that weight.

Yeah but I don't actually believe he deserved the win over Burnett at Ultimate Brazil to become the first LW Champion, so it kinda starts the whole thing off on a bad note.
hippysmacker
2/22/07 3:00:19PM
Agree to disagree then.
madmarck
2/22/07 3:30:40PM

Posted by Lay_N_Pray

I love that list, but I think you should add Pat Militech as a coach in the HOF. He has had plenty of champions in his camp


Yeah some guys should be added just gor that reason. MFS is clearly one of those sick camps like Team Punishment or Greg Jacksons.

I gotta say Bas and Pat are in the Same League. In the UFC they both accomplished about hte same (Bas did do Pancrase) and they both are known for producign top level fighters. I think MFS even a bit mroe so.
RichBoy
2/22/07 8:47:27PM
How About adding Cro Cop ? I think hes worthy of being mentioned as long with Big Nog. Or is it too soon to add them ?
richieb19
2/23/07 12:05:38AM

Posted by RichBoy

How About adding Cro Cop ? I think hes worthy of being mentioned as long with Big Nog. Or is it too soon to add them ?

CroCop is on the list... Nogueira was one of the many guys I was on the fence about... but if he beats Barnett in the third match or has a good year in '07 hes earned a spot in any mma hof...
RichBoy
2/23/07 1:17:36AM

Posted by richieb19


Posted by RichBoy

How About adding Cro Cop ? I think hes worthy of being mentioned as long with Big Nog. Or is it too soon to add them ?

CroCop is on the list... Nogueira was one of the many guys I was on the fence about... but if he beats Barnett in the third match or has a good year in '07 hes earned a spot in any mma hof...


Oh crap forgot he was already on it .
MMA
2/23/07 8:30:53AM
Anyone on steroids shouldn't be on that list IMO.
madmarck
2/23/07 8:39:05AM

Posted by MMA

Anyone on steroids shouldn't be on that list IMO.


I didnt know there were any proven cases on there. It was thought that Ken did them big time back in the day. And Wand has been accused of doing them often. i don't think anyone else there has been accused of doping.
richieb19
2/23/07 12:09:02PM

Posted by madmarck


Posted by MMA

Anyone on steroids shouldn't be on that list IMO.


I didnt know there were any proven cases on there. It was thought that Ken did them big time back in the day. And Wand has been accused of doing them often. i don't think anyone else there has been accused of doping.

Shamrock has spoken out against steroids in MMA, saying that they hinder you more than they help. He obviously took them in his stint in the WWF, but I'm honestly not sure if he ever took them during his MMA career.
madmarck
2/23/07 1:38:08PM

Posted by richieb19


Posted by madmarck


Posted by MMA

Anyone on steroids shouldn't be on that list IMO.


I didnt know there were any proven cases on there. It was thought that Ken did them big time back in the day. And Wand has been accused of doing them often. i don't think anyone else there has been accused of doping.

Shamrock has spoken out against steroids in MMA, saying that they hinder you more than they help. He obviously took them in his stint in the WWF, but I'm honestly not sure if he ever took them during his MMA career.



Check the early UFC's the guy was huge. Way Bigger thant noraml. Up until 2000 Ken Shamrock was huge. Check Mezgers fight with Sak. After Ken stops it (yes Ken) you can look at Ken tellin the Ref off and he just see that he is way to massive. He actually looks around 260 there.
madmarck
2/23/07 1:40:46PM

Sakuraba vs Mezger

looked for it and found it. Okay maybe not 260 but he looks big. and like a A- Hole.
richieb19
2/23/07 4:39:33PM

Posted by madmarck


Posted by richieb19


Posted by madmarck


Posted by MMA

Anyone on steroids shouldn't be on that list IMO.


I didnt know there were any proven cases on there. It was thought that Ken did them big time back in the day. And Wand has been accused of doing them often. i don't think anyone else there has been accused of doping.

Shamrock has spoken out against steroids in MMA, saying that they hinder you more than they help. He obviously took them in his stint in the WWF, but I'm honestly not sure if he ever took them during his MMA career.



Check the early UFC's the guy was huge. Way Bigger thant noraml. Up until 2000 Ken Shamrock was huge. Check Mezgers fight with Sak. After Ken stops it (yes Ken) you can look at Ken tellin the Ref off and he just see that he is way to massive. He actually looks around 260 there.

Thats because Shamrock was still out of MMA at the time. Don't get me wrong, theres certainly no doubt that he juiced as a pro-wrestler, but I'm on the fence as to whether or not he did during his MMA career.
richieb19
2/23/07 4:42:19PM

Posted by madmarck


Sakuraba vs Mezger

looked for it and found it. Okay maybe not 260 but he looks big. and like a A- Hole.

A big A-Hole? Don't you realize whats actually going there? Shamrock's far from being an A-Hole in that clip, hes being a responsible coach.
Punishment
2/23/07 5:13:31PM
I see 1 messed up thing on that list... I see Mirko CroCop on there but no Rodrigo Nogueira ? Whats up with that ? Nog has accomplished alot more in MMA then CroCop , Nog was the former Pride HVW Champion for YRS in which he dominated competition (before Fedor came) and hes beeen a Top 3 Fighter @ HVW for the past 4-5 YRS now.... not to mention he holds a victory over Mirko... Bottomline Nog > CC when it comes to MMA (until proven otherwise)
richieb19
2/23/07 5:37:24PM

Posted by Punishment

I see 1 messed up thing on that list... I see Mirko CroCop on there but no Rodrigo Nogueira ? Whats up with that ? Nog has accomplished alot more in MMA then CroCop , Nog was the former Pride HVW Champion for YRS in which he dominated competition (before Fedor came) and hes beeen a Top 3 Fighter @ HVW for the past 4-5 YRS now.... not to mention he holds a victory over Mirko... Bottomline Nog > CC when it comes to MMA (until proven otherwise)

Like I said earlier, Nog was ony of the many fighters that just barely made my list, and believe me I'm not denying his talent and success, I just personally think CroCop has more big wins in his career, and alot of them where won in spectacular fashion...
hippysmacker
2/25/07 5:57:43AM
After last night add Hendo. I'm sure you would have put him on when he retired anyway. Won a UFC one-night tournament. Fought anybody at anyweight. First Pride 183 lb . champ, Pride 205 lb. champ, and most impressively the first fighter ever to hold 2 belts in 2 different weight classes at the same time in either the UFC or Pride
madmarck
2/25/07 10:27:07AM

Posted by richieb19


Posted by madmarck


Sakuraba vs Mezger

looked for it and found it. Okay maybe not 260 but he looks big. and like a A- Hole.

A big A-Hole? Don't you realize whats actually going there? Shamrock's far from being an A-Hole in that clip, hes being a responsible coach.



How is that responsible? The fight was a draw so it was going into a overtime round. Mezger had a chance to finish the fight or win by descision. By making Guy leave he gave him the loss (by forefit). I would also assuem since he lost that match he got a smaller purse.
If that doesnt make you believe Ken in insane i have many more clips to show you.
Shamrock vs Sakuraba
Ken talking smack to Don Frye
Ken Arguing with Tito
Ken vs Tito at a press confrence
There are more out there these are just my personal favourites.
MMA
2/25/07 11:23:44AM
The steroid comment was referring to Coleman.

I don't think there is definitive proof that Shamrock was on it.
richieb19
2/25/07 6:47:50PM

Posted by madmarck


Posted by richieb19


Posted by madmarck


Sakuraba vs Mezger

looked for it and found it. Okay maybe not 260 but he looks big. and like a A- Hole.

A big A-Hole? Don't you realize whats actually going there? Shamrock's far from being an A-Hole in that clip, hes being a responsible coach.



How is that responsible? The fight was a draw so it was going into a overtime round. Mezger had a chance to finish the fight or win by descision. By making Guy leave he gave him the loss (by forefit). I would also assuem since he lost that match he got a smaller purse.
If that doesnt make you believe Ken in insane i have many more clips to show you.
Shamrock vs Sakuraba
Ken talking smack to Don Frye
Ken Arguing with Tito
Ken vs Tito at a press confrence
There are more out there these are just my personal favourites.



The point you seem to be missing is that the contract for the Mezger/Saku fight did not call for any additional rounds, seeing as Mezger was ill at the time. After the fight went to a draw, the officials somehow decided that an additional round was to happen anyways, most likely to give Saku a chance at the win. So Shamrock, as a responsible coach and someone who wouldnt bow to Pride's on the spot rule change stopped the fight. I personally would have loved to see Mezger and Saku keep going, but I don't blame Ken one bit for standing up for his teammate like that.

As far as those other clips go, how on earth does that make him crazy? Tito always pushed his buttons to make him angry, he had a serious feud with Frye regarding personal comments made to his family, and the stoppage on the Saku fight was one of the worst I've ever seen and just furhter proof that the Japanese have a strong bias towards popular/succesful Japanese fighters (and don't get me wrong, I myself am a Saku fan).
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