Relationship question

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KungFuMaster
6/4/12 2:01:30AM

Posted by DancingDoll


Posted by KungFuMaster
Fair enough. I think most people have cheated at least once in their lifetimes and this includes the actual act as well as the intent whether it is successful or not.

If you're in a relationship but you go around flirting left and right, some would call it harmless while others would call it cheating - and I happen to be one of those who believe flirting is a form of cheating. To me, flirting is a sign of wanting to and or having the desire to cheat. If there was no desire to cheat, there would be no flirting to begin with...

Would you agree with me - those who flirt more are more prone to cheating than those who simply refuse to flirt? If you willingly put yourself in situations whereby cheating can occur, is it safe to say you are not afraid to cheat and that you are actually welcoming the affair? When you wear clothes which show a lot of cleavage, are you upset when men glance at you more than once? In essence, flirting and showing cleavage are invitations for men who are willing to take that step.

I find women who wear revealing outfits and are flirtatious to be unstable. Unstable as in not fit for long term relationships. Unstable as in not fit to be a mother....and this is not a knock on you, DD, my darling. This is just my generalization of those types of women. Furthermore, that is not to say those women who wear revealing outfits and are flirtatious ARE NOT going to be fit for long term relationships in the future. They could very well turn out to be excellent partners and mothers in the long run.

Basically, we have two argumentative themes meshed in one debate. The first theme is women should not be flirting when IN a SERIOUS relationship and the other is - it is acceptable for women to flirt when IN a premarital and or non-serious relationship. Some of the guys in this thread are arguing FOR the first theme and you are arguing for the second theme.....And as a person who was once active in the dating games, I can't fault you for your desire to flirt especially when you are young and have not made plans to settle down or be committed - but that does not mean cheating is OK.




Wow. There are so many things wrong with this post, I'm almost uncertain as to whether you're actually being serious or just baiting me in jest. lol

Women who show cleavage are unstable and unfit mothers? Really? To be honest, last time I wore my Burqa to the clubs, it didn't really go over that well. Besides, I don't really have child-bearing hips or a dowry to my name, so it's not like men are going to want me anyway.

Ok, ok, I'm being bad - I'll be more serious and try to answer your Q's first:

1. Would you agree with me - those who flirt more are more prone to cheating than those who simply refuse to flirt?
- Nope.

2. If you willingly put yourself in situations whereby cheating can occur, is it safe to say you are not afraid to cheat and that you are actually welcoming the affair?
- Cheating can occur anywhere technically. It can happen in an office, the lockerroom at the gym, a bathroom at a bar on girl's night. You can't avoid life because you don't feel confident in your ability to say 'no'. You're only 'welcoming an affair' when you say Yes. Nobody should feel 'afraid to cheat' - it requires a decision. I don't believe in excuses.

3. When you wear clothes which show a lot of cleavage, are you upset when men glance at you more than once?
- Nope.

4. In essence, flirting and showing cleavage are invitations for men who are willing to take that step.
- Seriously?? An 'invitation'. Most people think it's about fashion. By that estimation though any man should be able to have sex with any woman in SoCal or on any public beach since they are clearly sending an invitation that they are horny by wearing a v-neck or a bikini. That logic doesn't work.

I'll clarify my position:

1. Yes, cheating is wrong. I never said it was ok.

2. Flirting, fantasizing, watching porn or masturbating isn't cheating. I'm not going to go all Clinton-esque here in my definition of sex on this one but let's call a spade a spade. Cheating requires physical interaction or emotional involvement with another person where you have to deceive your partner - and neither of those factors are present in any of things I've mentioned.

3. Assuming we're talking about the free world - women can wear whatever they want. It doesn't mean that they're unstable, slutty or 'asking for it'. Commitment doesn't mean being doomed to a life of turtlenecks and ankle-length skirts while avoiding eye contact with members of the opposite sex.

4. People who look outwardly conservative and don't ever flirt - those people are just as prone to cheating and often those are the types that are way kinkier and into super-freaky stuff, by the way.

5. You and I potentially have very different interpretations of the word "flirting" so that might be what's causing the confusion.

6. If you trust your partner you should feel confident that no matter what situation presented itself, your partner has the self-control to keep things in line and say 'no'. If casually joking around with a member of the opposite sex or some mild innuendo one-upping each other is all it takes to lead to sex, then wow it must be pretty easy for guys to get laid anytime they want by barely issuing a girl a compliment. Weird how I hear guys always complaining it's so hard to close the deal when it comes to finessing a new girl.

7. I guess cheating is all relative. You might decide with your partner that her wearing a v-neck sweater is cheating. That's cool. It's up to every couple to define their own limits of what's allowed and as long as they both agree to it, I think that's really all that matters.






1. - Cheating can occur anywhere technically. It can happen in an office, the lockerroom at the gym, a bathroom at a bar on girl's night. You can't avoid life because you don't feel confident in your ability to say 'no'. You're only 'welcoming an affair' when you say Yes. Nobody should feel 'afraid to cheat' - it requires a decision. I don't believe in excuses.

- Indeed, cheating can occur anywhere and everywhere but when you open yourself to the world as a flirt, you will be hit on more often. By choosing to be a flirt, you are already half way to the actual crime. It is good you have the will to back off when the conversation gets too serious but it has been my experience - most women who are flirtatious end up having more than one sleeping partner at a time. You can say flirting is fun and even harmless but the fact of the matter is - flirting is the initial process of an affair and it can and has led to many affairs. Pandora's box cannot be opened unless you open it and when you choose to flirt, you are essentially opening the box. Your chances of having an affair will have skyrocketed.

2. When you wear clothes which show a lot of cleavage, are you upset when men glance at you more than once?
- Nope.

Your answer is no which is the answer I was expecting. Basically you are inviting onlookers. Out of those onlookers, someone will pursue you which I'm sure has happened. This inevitably increases your chances of cheating due to the increasing availability.

3. In essence, flirting and showing cleavage are invitations for men who are willing to take that step.
- Seriously?? An 'invitation'. Most people think it's about fashion. By that estimation though any man should be able to have sex with any woman in SoCal or on any public beach since they are clearly sending an invitation that they are horny by wearing a v-neck or a bikini. That logic doesn't work.

The beach is a designated place where anyone can wear a bikini and it will be viewed acceptable by social standards. That is completely different from someone who chooses to show more skin on a regular basis. Try walking through a residential area in a bikini and then do it on a beach. Your beach argument does not apply.

4. Assuming we're talking about the free world - women can wear whatever they want. It doesn't mean that they're unstable, slutty or 'asking for it'. Commitment doesn't mean being doomed to a life of turtlenecks and ankle-length skirts while avoiding eye contact with members of the opposite sex.

You are right. Commitment does not mean you are doomed to a life of turtlenecks and ankle skirts; it means you are devoted to your partner and you will do everything in your power to not harm the relationship. And when you decide to flirt, what do you think you are doing? You are jeopardizing the commitment you made to your partner.....which brings the question - were you committed in the first place?

I doubt we can reach a compromise on all of your other points but I do like to entertain your definition of cheating.

Your definition of cheating: Cheating requires physical interaction or emotional involvement with another person where you have to deceive your partner - and neither of those factors are present in any of things I've mentioned.

When you are flirting, you are essentially telling another man, other than your partner whom you are supposedly committed to, that he is handsome, charming, funny, intelligent etc. or whatever.......And in doing so, you have belittled your partner and shamed his manhood and most importantly - you have jeopardized and compromised your commitment to your partner.

The only way one can engage in a flirting session is to dismiss his or her partner. This is definitely a breach of commitment because you have placed another person higher than your partner and I don't think your partner would appreciate it.




Pookie
6/4/12 2:05:16AM
Kill the baby, drink the blood.
KungFuMaster
6/4/12 11:44:43AM
I'm not sure if you are going to counter, DD, so I'll go ahead and counter what ever it is that may be on your mind.

If flirting is such a harmless act, why not put it to the test? Why not commit the act in front of your partner and see how that goes?
DancingDoll
6/4/12 12:16:49PM

Posted by KungFuMaster

Your definition of cheating: Cheating requires physical interaction or emotional involvement with another person where you have to deceive your partner - and neither of those factors are present in any of things I've mentioned.

When you are flirting, you are essentially telling another man, other than your partner whom you are supposedly committed to, that he is handsome, charming, funny, intelligent etc. or whatever.......And in doing so, you have belittled your partner and shamed his manhood and most importantly - you have jeopardized and compromised your commitment to your partner.

The only way one can engage in a flirting session is to dismiss his or her partner. This is definitely a breach of commitment because you have placed another person higher than your partner and I don't think your partner would appreciate it.




I really think you need to have more faith in a person's ability to say no and set limits and know when something crosses the line.

I don't understand how me telling some guy that he's funny or intelligent is belittling my boyfriend and 'shaming his manhood'. I mean... by that standard I've already cheated by giving props to guys on this site, right?

Complimenting someone other than your partner doesn't mean that it's a knock on your significant other. It's part of being socially friendly. I can scroll back a few posts to where even you say, "don't worry, I still love you DD"... isn't that considered flirting (and by your definition leading to cheating)? Do I take that comment to mean something inappropriate and that you're inviting me to have an affair with you? See what I mean? You do it yourself...

Like I said - cheating means different things to different couples. It really depends on how strict your relationship is. I could never be with a paranoid guy. If he needed to control what I wear, where I go and who I talk to, I would feel insulted by the lack of trust.


Here's a different way of looking at it:

A girl that is used to getting a lot of attention from guys is often less likely to be randomly promiscuous. Let's call this female prototype, "Kelly". You've all seen this type of girl at bars and clubs - she's super hot, dressed sexy, and has this distant quasi-bitchy look on her face to ward off guys. She's used to being able to have sex with any guy she wants, anytime she wants so it's not really a challenge or a novelty. She gets hit on so much that she's already heard all the lines, the games and the dumb strategies guys use to close the deal. She's immune to it. She is actually probably less likely to cheat on her man because she's a little more socially savvy - flirting is no big deal to her. She can have a laugh with guys she knows and then keep on walking.

Then - let's say you have another girl, let's call her "Annie", who is wearing the pants and turtleneck at the office and Rob, the good looking divorced guy, is hanging over her cubicle all the time, showing her attention, paying her compliments, bringing her back a muffin when he goes for coffee. He senses a bit of naivete about her and likes the way she blushes when he tells her he likes her sweater. Even though she doesn't flirt back and is dressed conservatively - that guy is getting into her head! She's not used to targeted attention like that. He probably has more of a chance to lure her into an office tryst than some douchebag at the club does with the first girl, even though Kelly is a flirt and dresses sexy, and Office-Annie is not.

My point is - if the ultimate concern of cheating is *actual sex* with another guy, the flirty, outgoing girl isn't at any more risk than the pretty, conservatively dressed girl. You just have to hope that your significant other knows where to draw the line. And technically, the socially savvy girl is probably more skilled in rejecting guys and keeping things in check than the innocent blushing girl when a skilled playa hits the scene and targets your woman for some fun.


DancingDoll
6/4/12 12:38:22PM

Posted by KungFuMaster

I'm not sure if you are going to counter, DD, so I'll go ahead and counter what ever it is that may be on your mind.

If flirting is such a harmless act, why not put it to the test? Why not commit the act in front of your partner and see how that goes?



I have, and he's done the same - it's still no big deal.

Again - it really depends on the way a couple defines their relationship. As I said before - it ranges and varies.

It's like what Bubbles said - that one girl he was with thought that him going to a strip club was cheating. So if he wanted to date a girl like that - he'd have to agree not to do it.

To a certain degree - cheating is doing something that your partner doesn't want you to do. If you have a strict partner with trust issues, then you have to agree to live on a tight leash and be under constant watch.... or... you look for someone who's more in alignment with your life philosophy.

For most people though, the standard definition of cheating (in typical relationships) is sex or emotional involvement.

KungFuMaster
6/4/12 12:41:43PM


DD - I don't understand how me telling some guy that he's funny or intelligent is belittling my boyfriend and 'shaming his manhood'. I mean... by that standard I've already cheated by giving props to guys on this site, right?

We are not talking about compliments, DD, and you know that... We are talking about flirting which include but are not limited to eying, winking, and erotic suggestions etc.

DD - Complimenting someone other than your partner doesn't mean that it's a knock on your significant other. It's part of being socially friendly. I can scroll back a few posts to where even you say, "don't worry, I still love you DD"... isn't that considered flirting (and by your definition leading to cheating)? Do I take that comment to mean something inappropriate and that you're inviting me to have an affair with you? See what I mean? You do it yourself...

Being friendly is one thing - flirting is another. And yes, flirting is a knock on your partner.

Regarding my "I love you, DD," - I do that to guys on this site as well and I'm sure you know I was not flirting. Come on, DD, you and I both know flirting is much more than an "I love you" from a stranger.
KungFuMaster
6/4/12 12:55:11PM
DD, have you posted over at ufc.com and FiveKnuckles before? Just curious???
KungFuMaster
6/4/12 12:58:39PM

Posted by DancingDoll


Posted by KungFuMaster

I'm not sure if you are going to counter, DD, so I'll go ahead and counter what ever it is that may be on your mind.

If flirting is such a harmless act, why not put it to the test? Why not commit the act in front of your partner and see how that goes?



I have, and he's done the same - it's still no big deal.

Again - it really depends on the way a couple defines their relationship. As I said before - it ranges and varies.

It's like what Bubbles said - that one girl he was with thought that him going to a strip club was cheating. So if he wanted to date a girl like that - he'd have to agree not to do it.

To a certain degree - cheating is doing something that your partner doesn't want you to do. If you have a strict partner with trust issues, then you have to agree to live on a tight leash and be under constant watch.... or... you look for someone who's more in alignment with your life philosophy.

For most people though, the standard definition of cheating (in typical relationships) is sex or emotional involvement.




You are comparing your opened relationship to that of the norm. Most people do not have what you and your partner have.
DancingDoll
6/4/12 1:07:13PM

Posted by KungFuMaster



DD - I don't understand how me telling some guy that he's funny or intelligent is belittling my boyfriend and 'shaming his manhood'. I mean... by that standard I've already cheated by giving props to guys on this site, right?

We are not talking about compliments, DD, and you know that... We are talking about flirting which include but are not limited to eying, winking, and erotic suggestions etc.

DD - Complimenting someone other than your partner doesn't mean that it's a knock on your significant other. It's part of being socially friendly. I can scroll back a few posts to where even you say, "don't worry, I still love you DD"... isn't that considered flirting (and by your definition leading to cheating)? Do I take that comment to mean something inappropriate and that you're inviting me to have an affair with you? See what I mean? You do it yourself...

Being friendly is one thing - flirting is another. And yes, flirting is a knock on your partner.

Regarding my "I love you, DD," - I do that to guys on this site as well and I'm sure you know I was not flirting. Come on, DD, you and I both know flirting is much more than an "I love you" from a stranger.




This is what you said in your previous post: "When you are flirting, you are essentially telling another man, other than your partner whom you are supposedly committed to, that he is handsome, charming, funny, intelligent etc. or whatever.......And in doing so, you have belittled your partner and shamed his manhood"

I'm just going off what you said. You said that complimenting another guy (in the ways you described above) shames the manhood of my boyfriend.

If you're talking about flirting being more along the lines of winking at a guy and saying in a serious way, "hey, Bob... you're looking damn fine tonight. I like that bulge in your pants" then uhmm yeah, most girls don't do that.

Light flirting is usually done with an air of humour/jest or more of a compliment. If a girl is that overt with her flirting then she's going to get called on it 95% of the time, and then it leads to an immediate 'yes' or 'no' outcome. If I started 'eyeing' a guy and making erotic suggestions - he'd walk right up to me and say "hey babe, your place or mine?" Totally not the same thing... Guys are pretty goal-oriented when a girl shows sexual interest and they move in on an opening right away, so girls usually have to be a little more "light-handed" with their styles of flirting. Proper flirting should be breezy and light-hearted and conversational where both parties know it's just in fun and there's no intention behind it.

I guess both "flirting" and "cheating" are terms with subjective interpretations.

<--- the gateway emoticon to cheating

hehe, just kidding... I love you too, KFM
DancingDoll
6/4/12 1:09:13PM

Posted by KungFuMaster

DD, have you posted over at ufc.com and FiveKnuckles before? Just curious???



Nope. I've only ever been on two forums on the net. This one and a non-sport site.
DancingDoll
6/4/12 1:16:51PM



You are comparing your opened relationship to that of the norm. Most people do not have what you and your partner have.



This is true to some degree.

But even in previous monogamous relationships, I never had any issues with flirting. When guys go out with their buddies, I pretty much assume they're going to talk and flirt with girls as part of the night's activities. It would be weird if they just stood huddled in the bar talking only to each other.

And if a guy goes to a strip club - I assume there's at least some level of flirting going on when a naked chick is grinding in his lap.

I'm just going off my impression of flirting and what the general consensus is among my friends (many of whom are in traditional/monogamous relationships).

There's probably age/demographic differences too with how people interpret flirting/cheating. It's not a big deal - as long as people are happy with how it's defined in their own relationship and what's allowed and not allowed, it's all good.

grappler0000
6/4/12 1:28:46PM
There's way too much to read in this thread. I skimmed over it though and this is how I've perceived cheating to happen:

--> --> -->


or in DD's case:

--> --> --> (just kidding )


or when watching the fights at Fleek's house:

--> --> --> -->


DancingDoll
6/4/12 1:32:03PM

Posted by grappler0000

There's way too much to read in this thread. I skimmed over it though and this is how I've perceived cheating to happen:

--> --> -->


or in DD's case:

--> --> --> (just kidding )


or when watching the fights at Fleek's house:

--> --> --> -->





Oh my god - this is the BEST post of this whole thread. LMAO

You hit it perfectly!
grappler0000
6/4/12 1:34:30PM

Posted by DancingDoll

You hit it perfectly!



That's what you said!
Bubbles
6/4/12 5:04:15PM

Posted by KungFuMaster

massive wall of text and quotes



please try to edit your quotes down to the actual post as its now taking up half the page
scoozna
6/4/12 5:32:27PM
I'm ready for Chapter 2 of Rob and Annie.
Bubbles
6/4/12 7:40:46PM

Posted by scoozna

I'm ready for Chapter 2 of Rob and Annie.


I think she is in the middle of writing that erotica novel
Aether
6/4/12 8:02:50PM
IMO cheating would be kissing or anything more than that, but that's just me. Flirting is really not a big deal.
warglory
6/4/12 8:45:15PM

Posted by KungFuMaster

I'm not sure if you are going to counter, DD, so I'll go ahead and counter what ever it is that may be on your mind.

If flirting is such a harmless act, why not put it to the test? Why not commit the act in front of your partner and see how that goes?



Dude, I know several couples who openly flirt with close friends/workmates right in front of their significant others. It's playful, nothing more, and when you know this as a couple, it's not a big deal.

Are you telling me you haven't shared a sly joke with a female workmate or a friend before, while in a relationship? It's bound to happen with the gender that you are attracted to, it doesn't mean you want to drop trow and take a trip to tuna town in the copier room.
prozacnation1978
6/4/12 11:33:29PM
One reason why i never leave my phone alone with a gal in case she opens the texts

I wouldnt bring it up to her. She may think your spying on her.

But again she probably shouldn't be chatting with the guy either. If she does go to cancun. He will be there. Temptation is a bitch plus alcohol. Honestly I would go with her if I were u. But only if she offers u to go.

Hard question. When my girlfriend in hs went back to Canada. She was with her ex there and well she dumped me for the ex while she was there. Not same ball park as u. But I know how your gonna feel while she is away in cancun. U won't sleep and anxiety. It means u truly love her as well. Just maybe reassure her tell her u will miss her a lot and that u love her before she leaves
KungFuMaster
6/4/12 11:37:28PM

Posted by warglory


Posted by KungFuMaster

I'm not sure if you are going to counter, DD, so I'll go ahead and counter what ever it is that may be on your mind.

If flirting is such a harmless act, why not put it to the test? Why not commit the act in front of your partner and see how that goes?



Dude, I know several couples who openly flirt with close friends/workmates right in front of their significant others. It's playful, nothing more, and when you know this as a couple, it's not a big deal.

Are you telling me you haven't shared a sly joke with a female workmate or a friend before, while in a relationship? It's bound to happen with the gender that you are attracted to, it doesn't mean you want to drop trow and take a trip to tuna town in the copier room.



I was raised under Christian values and I never want to belittle my partner in any way. It's just how I'm built. Contrary to that, I was quite the flirt when I was single. But now that I'm married, I have put all that aside. When a flirt gets thrown my way, I simply counter it with some silly stuff and squash it right there and then.
scoozna
6/5/12 9:48:48AM

Posted by KungFuMaster


Posted by warglory


Posted by KungFuMaster

I'm not sure if you are going to counter, DD, so I'll go ahead and counter what ever it is that may be on your mind.

If flirting is such a harmless act, why not put it to the test? Why not commit the act in front of your partner and see how that goes?



Dude, I know several couples who openly flirt with close friends/workmates right in front of their significant others. It's playful, nothing more, and when you know this as a couple, it's not a big deal.

Are you telling me you haven't shared a sly joke with a female workmate or a friend before, while in a relationship? It's bound to happen with the gender that you are attracted to, it doesn't mean you want to drop trow and take a trip to tuna town in the copier room.



I was raised under Christian values and I never want to belittle my partner in any way. It's just how I'm built. Contrary to that, I was quite the flirt when I was single. But now that I'm married, I have put all that aside. When a flirt gets thrown my way, I simply counter it with some silly stuff and squash it right there and then.



I've teased KFM for sounding "innocent" in the past, but I do find this view refreshing. I think we can all see how flirting is closely tied to jealousy (and even pride). My wife's perspective on it, which naturally, informs my own, is that one should never want to even make their partner question where one's loyalties lie. One should always be working to avoid stirring up such feelings in the other. An active, ongoing effort to avoid situations which would make the other feel such things is the best course.

Having said that, I'm under no illusions that every couple feels this way, and each couple is free (naturally) to determine how much flirting is cool with them.
Svartorm
6/5/12 2:36:55PM
KFM and I are totally on the same page all around, so that's refreshing.

As for strip clubs and lap dances, I'd personally consider a strip club to be borderline and a lap dance to be over that line.

A question for the guys: If your girlfriend paid some guy to grind his dick into her clothed vag, would you be ok with that?

To me, this seems like a situation where guys like/want something but don't want to admit that it's unfaithful and/or wrong. As with anything like this though, it's not what YOU think, but what your partner thinks is over the line.
prophecy033
6/5/12 2:47:40PM
If you're gonna go to a stripclub, bring your BF/GF with.... Everyone's happy and on the same page
Kpro
6/5/12 3:02:41PM
I know I'm replying more to recent posts rather than the original post but imo the definition of cheating defines how much someone likes someone.

I've dated chicks where I could care less if they got sweatpants-helicopter-dicked in the face while I watched a UFC a few zip codes away,,,,, and I've also dated chicks where if it seemed like they flirted with a dude while I was getting a drink I'd get bent. Then I realized chicks are the same way. The more things they think are cheating, the more they like you. The more things you think are cheating, the more you like them.
Kpro
6/5/12 3:04:04PM
btw, first sweatpants-helicopter-dicked in the face reference in PG history.
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