Reffereeing and Bad Stand-ups

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ChokeUout
6/27/11 2:10:40PM
This is bothering me, so I want the playground's thoughts...

Everyone has their own ideas of when a fight should be stood up. For me, it's when a fighter is in another fighters guard doing little more than controlling position, and then only. BUt that's my opinion...

That being said, how the HELL did Mark Matheny stand up Rick Story when he was on Brennemans back in a possible triangle position looking to lock up a Kimura? I was shouting "What the f*** Are you doing?!" at the TV, only to hear Rogan say the same thing right as I said it. That was either incompetant, uneducating reffereeing or a ref that favors a stand up fight in my opinion.

There was another instance last night, I believe during the Brown/Howard fight where one of them was in half guard, landing some shot while both of them were scrambling and the ref stood them up, and I didn't understand that one either.

AM I alone thing that those stand-ups were bogus? When SHOULD a fight be stood up?

EDIT:
Oh yeah, how the hell did the ref not see the illegal knee Olivera landed on Lentz? That was horrible reffing too....

I'm starting to think the Commission should just get playground members to ref. We could do better than some of the "refs" that step in the cage
Theoutlaw08
6/27/11 2:27:57PM
A fight should be stood up for a complete lack of aggression. Not attempting to gain positions or effective striking.
Examples:
1. Punches to the ribs while laying in half guard should be a result of a stand up.
2. Locking in an attempt for a Kimura to either get the sub or sweep, should not result in a stand up.

Refs have been pretty bad this year to me. Although, i thought the Barry/Congo fight was refereed perfectly.
telnights
6/27/11 2:53:02PM
Its just my opinion but I feel the Ref in that Brenneman vs Story fight was being biased. The same Ref had stood fighters up earlier in the night rather fast. But in the Story fight he let Brenneman lay in Stories guard for very long time without any real action. Then once Story gets Brenneman in a bad spot it is stood up.

Now as far as when I think stand-ups should happen is when the fighter on top or bottom is making no attempts to do any real damage, subs, or to advance position.
emfleek
6/27/11 3:14:16PM

Posted by telnights

Its just my opinion but I feel the Ref in that Brenneman vs Story fight was being biased. The same Ref had stood fighters up earlier in the night rather fast. But in the Story fight he let Brenneman lay in Stories guard for very long time without any real action. Then once Story gets Brenneman in a bad spot it is stood up.



I can't help but feel this way as well. Not to take anything away from Charlie, but I thought it was quite obvious...
FlashyG
6/27/11 3:47:04PM
I HATE referee stand-ups in pretty much all instances, its showing blatant favoritism to stand-up fighters.

How come when someone pulls a Starnes and dis-engages repeatedly on the feet we don't have the offending fighters put on the ground into guard.

If a person can take you down and hold you there for 5 minutes, 3 or 5 rounds in a row, the problem isn't with the referee, its with your own wrestling ability.

Holding on and looking at the referee isn't fighting and it shouldn't help you get back up if you can't keep the fight there.
Budgellism
6/27/11 4:15:46PM
I'm pretty against stand ups as well. If a guy is holding someone against the cage and it's a complete stalemate than please separate the fighters to get the action going again. Or if the fighter on top and the one on the bottom are both doing nothing for an extended period of time than sure, stand them up. Other than that though let them fight and work for position. Even if punches aren't being thrown, if they are legitimately working for position there should never be a stand up. The only time I ever want to notice a ref is when a serious injury/cut occurs, when someone taps out or when someone is (t)ko'd.

Story being stood up while working for a kimura is ridiculous and shouldn't be acceptable. He was even warning them it would get stood up while Story was locking in a triangle. WTF is that?
kopower
6/27/11 5:25:53PM
Don't get me started on the stand ups and lack of standing fighters up last night. Not to mention that horribly annoying ref that wouldn't shut his damn mouth during the Griffin/Manny fight. Action, action, improve your position, let's go, let's go, action. Shut your effin mouth.
ncordless
6/27/11 5:28:19PM
The major problem with the application of stand ups is that often the refs don't know what they are looking at.

Take the Story/Brenneman fight. Matheny must have thought that the position was a stale-mate (which is the reason for a stand-up or any other reset). However, in reality, Story was in a more advantageous position than he or Brenneman had been the entire fight.


I don't mind stand-ups when there is a stalemate, and I suppose there is a legitimate difference in opinions on what a stalemate is, depending on whether you think just being in someone's guard or being the one pushing the other against the fence is in itself "winning." If it is, then standups and resets are rarely, if ever justified because the fighter is winning just by maintaining the position. If it isn't, (and I am of the opinion that it is not as there is nothing inherently disadvantageous about being in either position and in fact my be the preferred position for purposes of "octagon control" for some fighters), then stand ups are justified for instances where the top position fighter cannot generate effective offense or advance position, and the bottom fighter cannot generate effective offense or advance position.

But regardless of which way you think it should be, it takes an knowledgeable and perceptive ref to determine if the position is a stalemate, and there is a severe lack of those kinds of skills in the ref pool of most states.
postman
6/27/11 7:45:52PM

Posted by emfleek


Posted by telnights

Its just my opinion but I feel the Ref in that Brenneman vs Story fight was being biased. The same Ref had stood fighters up earlier in the night rather fast. But in the Story fight he let Brenneman lay in Stories guard for very long time without any real action. Then once Story gets Brenneman in a bad spot it is stood up.



I can't help but feel this way as well. Not to take anything away from Charlie, but I thought it was quite obvious...



Being VERY familiar with the local PA MMA scene I would not disagree at all. I can't stand mark matheny. I have watched this guy talk all this talk about how he has a jits background and he told Matt Hughes and Chris Lytle to get to work or Im going to stand you up blah blah blah everytime he has ever refed a show my fighter was on. Yet I watched that idoit allow a guy lay on top of another guy for 3 rounds and do nothing at all. I had to scream at him between rounds that the dude was stalling before it sunk in. Then lst night Story had a Kimura a triangle or a armbar half locked up and he breaks them it was unreal. I wanted Charlie to win as I met him a few times on some local cards but I want to see the sport represented by everyone corectly before I ever want to see a fighter win.
Kpro
6/27/11 8:10:31PM
Referee's, Stand-ups, Judge's scorecards, Athletic Commissions, etc.

It's like you buy a car and realize there are so many things wrong with it you don't even know what to fix first.
warglory
6/27/11 10:21:03PM

Posted by FlashyG

I HATE referee stand-ups in pretty much all instances, its showing blatant favoritism to stand-up fighters.

How come when someone pulls a Starnes and dis-engages repeatedly on the feet we don't have the offending fighters put on the ground into guard.

If a person can take you down and hold you there for 5 minutes, 3 or 5 rounds in a row, the problem isn't with the referee, its with your own wrestling ability.

Holding on and looking at the referee isn't fighting and it shouldn't help you get back up if you can't keep the fight there.



This is MMA though, all fighters should be stand up fighters.
kingsmasher
6/28/11 10:19:15AM

Posted by emfleek


Posted by telnights

Its just my opinion but I feel the Ref in that Brenneman vs Story fight was being biased. The same Ref had stood fighters up earlier in the night rather fast. But in the Story fight he let Brenneman lay in Stories guard for very long time without any real action. Then once Story gets Brenneman in a bad spot it is stood up.



I can't help but feel this way as well. Not to take anything away from Charlie, but I thought it was quite obvious...




I hate agreeing here but I thoguht the same exact thing...Hometown guy gets to lay on Story but the other way around was not happening...Looked a little biased and its just a case where the refs are uneducated about MMA and whats going on...They should definitely have a class and be shown what the hell fighters are doing and when to look for sub attempts...
kingsmasher
6/28/11 10:21:38AM
Standups should happen when you see a guy laying on a guy breathing hard like Overeem did to Werdum....Was just annoying...
Patchedup15
7/1/11 10:55:52PM
I think the refs feel pressured to behave differently in different fights.. this weekend i have a feeling the ref will be quicker to put leben and silva back on their feet the first glimpse of inactivity. but when someone is known as a gnp specialist or a submission fighter they should be given some slack
40ouncetpkid
7/2/11 12:53:19AM
I actually liked the fast stand up's or at least the idea at least but the Story stand up in the last round was absolute BS and the fight should have been standed up much earlier since the 1st round.

Like the idea though, the stalling and holding is getting absolutely ridiculous and it isn't break time neither, if their laying on top trying to catch their breathe stand em up!

This is MMA not wrestling. Wrestling is good to set stuff up but shouldn't be how you win fights by just taking em down and be satisfied with laying on em for decisions.
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