My problem with GSP....

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Biggz
3/28/10 2:07:31AM
tonight just made it worse. i think for some reason when he fights IMO GSP does not fight to win. he fights to not lose. I think he is content with just not losing. i have all the respect in the world for him and he is a great fighter which makes it even harder to watch for me. Granted, Hardy is one tough son of a bitch. MAD RESPECT for not tapping. i just think he really should be finishing 90% of his fights. and whats with his corner telling him to not pass guard? and i know a common defense for him is that "he just takes the fight to where his opponents are weakest." and i understand that part of the fight game. i know i am just ranting but does anyone else feel anything like this? long story short i feel like he should finish a F*&%$$G FIGHT! i know that is easy for me to say from my living room and keyboard
Jackelope
3/28/10 2:18:30AM
I just think you're not giving Dan Hardy, Jon Fitch, or Thiago Alves enough credit.

He finished Serra and BJ pretty convincingly.

He tried his ass off to finish Fitch but Fitch was just too tough.

He got hurt against Alves (pulled groin)

Against Hardy he was up against probably one of the toughest fighters on the planet. Had it not been Hardy in there he probably would have finished 90% of the other UFC WW's with those submissions.

So you should focus on giving those guys credit instead of giving GSP hell.
NatedawgThaM
3/28/10 2:22:08AM
Yeah I think this will decide IMO where he ranks at the end of his career along with BJ, Anderson, and Fedor and all the other all time greats. They might be a little higher because of their killer instinct. I know is style is the easiest style to finish with compared to Anderson Silva but I think he should have took Hardy's arm off. Can't wait for Daley-Kos and Kos-Hardy. Some sick sick fights!!!! Hopefully Kos can rise up then as the next Contender for GSP! Somebody with GSP caliber wrestling with better boxing this time to give GSP a good fight like Kos this far into his career. I wanna see Fitch vs Alves, I think Fitch needs that before GSP. But GSP don't have another opponent though. I think GSP-BJ 3 isn't warranted right now but it'd be a great money making move and a great way to keep both guys busy until the next clear contender rises up, just an idea even though BJ is feeling good about stay down at 155 now with only taking baby steps up at 170 like anderson.
Biggz
3/28/10 2:26:41AM
i agree with both of you. good points. i gues like it was mentioned above, maybe im really just looking for someone to finally test him and MAKE it a fight. maybe 185 is the solution. i would also really like to see a kos vs gsp fight.
holt8081
3/28/10 2:31:52AM
I like when he fights cuz I get in a good nap and I wake up for the dec, poor guy just cant finish anybody off.
Jackelope
3/28/10 2:33:38AM
Yeah bro don't get me wrong it frustrates me too at times, but then I have to remind myself that his style is clearly superior and I'm a big supporter of imposing your style so what right do I have to talk smack? I honestly do think he would have finished guys who weren't Fitch or Hardy.

I think Anderson Silva would beat GSP but I'd really like to see that fight. At this point he's cleared out the division so why not?
bjj1605
3/28/10 2:43:58AM
I don't think it's a problem. Honestly I have a lot of respect for GSP. When he had those submissions locked in I think he probably could have torn Hardy's shoulder out of it's socket or snapped his elbow in two, but he knew he'd win the fight and he didn't feel like hurting Hardy.

I'm not trying to take anything away from Hardy, but I think GSP took it kinda easy on him. He didn't unload standing, he didn't throw a lot of ground and pound, and he focused mostly on jiu jitsu and positioning. When he had chances to finish the fight he let them go because Hardy wouldn't tap.
holt8081
3/28/10 2:49:07AM
I dont think he should move up, he will be way to small at MW
tdietel01
3/28/10 3:07:53AM
IMO since he is the champ he can fight however he wants and until someone stops him, why not impose your will, even if it means not finishing a fight. on another note....... before the fight i really wanted to see hardyget destroyed. but seeing him hang in there with those sub attempts made me respect the **** out of him! i was highly impressed and hope he does well from now on.

Also alot of props to GSP for not breaking hardys arm or ripping out his shoulder. Im sure he figured he wouldnt lose and didnt want to cause unnecesary injury, i know its the name of thegame and is acceptable, but it was cool of him not to cause serious damage!
cmill21
3/28/10 4:33:48AM
I hate how he fights, ever since the Serra thing it's been nothing but fighting safe. IMO it's not enough to be dominant, you need to be exciting and GSP isn't anymore IMO.
TOMMYAYO05
3/28/10 6:35:57AM

Posted by Jackelope

I just think you're not giving Dan Hardy, Jon Fitch, or Thiago Alves enough credit.

He finished Serra and BJ pretty convincingly.

He tried his ass off to finish Fitch but Fitch was just too tough.

He got hurt against Alves (pulled groin)

Against Hardy he was up against probably one of the toughest fighters on the planet. Had it not been Hardy in there he probably would have finished 90% of the other UFC WW's with those submissions.

So you should focus on giving those guys credit instead of giving GSP hell.

How bout Kos???Couldnt finish him either,and when they fight again if he fights not to lose Kos will take him he is a beast now.Fight not to lose or to win is still winning right??So i have no critiques for now until he meets someone who puts him away.
BeeR
3/28/10 7:28:14AM
I think GSP could have finished the fight any time he wanted, he was just sticking to the game plan, George molested Hardy, he could have had any position he wanted, and choke or leg lock he wanted, could have had the mount anytime he wanted, GSP is a complete fighter and that includes listening to your corner (who happens to be the best corner man in the game) the entire fight he was listening to jackson , he even looked and asked "now?" and then passed guard.Jacksons plan was to work the arms so If Hardy got up, his striking would be neutralized, and thats what GSP did, if Jackson said "choke" the fight would have been over. GSP wants to give the fans their money worth as well as display his dominance, Id rather completely destroy the competition and make them look like rookies and cement my legacy rather then finish everyone off with quick submissions, sure he makes his opponents look good for going 5 rounds and all, but they all know he can finish the fight whenever he wants, he's done it in all his title defenses, and will continue to do so, dont look for any early stoppages from GSP, look for total obliteration over 5 rounds, thats the gameplan, and he'll follow it to a T
BeeR
3/28/10 7:39:13AM
Also, he's gaining 25 minutes of actual fight time every match which is 1000 times more usefull then a 1st round submission or TKO ,and when you're planning on moving up in weight to fight bigger stronger guys, fight experience is what you need.


You're making me think you're not fight fans.
State_Champ
3/28/10 10:05:51AM

Posted by Jackelope

I just think you're not giving Dan Hardy, Jon Fitch, or Thiago Alves enough credit. ....

.....So you should focus on giving those guys credit instead of giving GSP hell.



The problem I have isn't merely that GSP couldn't finish the above mentioned fighters, but that he is clearly much much better than than AND STIILL couldn't finish.
He is so much better than these other fighters (Dan Hardy, Jon Fitch, or Thiago Alves) and he can't or won't finish them.

Again, I don't have an issue when GSP fights and finishes guys because that's what he should be doing. However, given how much he outclassed all Dan Hardy and Alves, it bothers me that he didn't put them away.

This is probably all very biased though since I am not a fan of GSP as a fighter.
AchillesHeel
3/28/10 10:11:00AM
Thread make Hulk angry...






Posted by Jackelope

I just think you're not giving Dan Hardy, Jon Fitch, or Thiago Alves enough credit.


Seriously. GSP almost broke Hardy's arm. Twice.

And here's the list of people who've subbed or knocked out Jon Fitch in the last seven years:


State_Champ
3/28/10 10:32:20AM

Posted by AchillesHeel

Thread make Hulk angry...






Posted by Jackelope

I just think you're not giving Dan Hardy, Jon Fitch, or Thiago Alves enough credit.


Seriously. GSP almost broke Hardy's arm. Twice.

And here's the list of people who've subbed or knocked out Jon Fitch in the last seven years:





I think maybe the reason GSP angers me is because he SEEMS to take fewer risks and/or finish his title defense fights less often than other champs.
He outclasses his opponent(s) so much, but he does so based on positioning and then wins based on positioning.
Positioning just doesn't offer the same satisfaction to me as a finish.
BustedKnuckle
3/28/10 11:28:03AM
I still can't believe that hardy didnt tap!!?? Dud eis tough as they come. GSP has been fighting the bast in the world for a long time. He gets all the credit fopr taking his opponent out of thier game and imposing his
AchillesHeel
3/28/10 11:56:23AM

Posted by State_Champ

I think maybe the reason GSP angers me is because he SEEMS to take fewer risks and/or finish his title defense fights less often than other champs.


Being the nerd that I am, and having some time to kill, I decided to look into the second part of your thesis. I don't think there's any way to quantify whether he takes more risks, so I'm looking at whether he finishes opponents in title fights (not just title defenses).

GSP: 8 title fights, 6 wins - 3 by sub or TKO, 3 by decision.

Anderson Silva: 7 title fights, 7 wins - 6 by sub or TKO, 1 by decision. iirc, the Lutter fight wasn't technically a title fight because Lutter failed to make weight, but I included it here anyway.

B.J. Penn: 3 Lightweight title fights, 3 wins - all by sub or TKO.

Sean Sherk won 2 Lightweight title fights by decision before Penn, so that's 3 finishes and 2 decisions in the 5 Lightweight title fights since the division was reinstated.

Of the last 6 UFC Light-Heavyweight title fights, 3 have ended with TKOs and 3 have gone to a decision.

The UFC Heavyweight title is harder to track, with all these "interim" belts. If I'm doing it right, the last 6 title fights have included 4 TKOs and 2 Decisions.

Of the last 6 WEC Featherweight title fights, 4 have ended with a sub or TKO and 2 have gone to a decision.

Of the last 6 WEC Bantamweight title fights, 5 have ended with a sub or TKO and 1 went to a decision.


Overall, the "batting average" of these title-fight winners, vis-a-vis finishing fights, has been a collective .667. That is, two-thirds of the 42 title fights cited above ended with a finish and one-third ended with a decision. GSP is below-par, with only a .500 average.


However, there's one more thing in GSP's favor, and people have already mentioned it in this thread: The quality of his opponents. I can find only two measures of a fighter's "strength of schedule", but both of them favor GSP over every fighter in the sport, but one.

Fight Matrix compiles their "Division Dominance" list, using a formula that they keep to themselves.

"The division dominance list," they write, "is comparable to a pound-for-pound list, [and] ranks fighters based on their point level superiority over those in the division in which they are currently ranked."

"One important thing to note is that there are two important factors that comprise a fighter’s division dominance rating. The strength of the division’s top fighters and the fighter’s own current rating."

So this rating isn't itself a "strength of schedule" score, but incorporates the quality of a fighter's opposition. GSP heads this list by a significant margin, with 206 points over Anderson Silva's 165.

MMA-ELO calculates a fighter's strength-of-schedule score, and GSP's 1857 is not only the 2nd-best currently, it's the 2nd-best of all time (behind B.J. Penn's 1867). That's a career score, and doesn't include last night's fight, so it's actually a little bit higher than that. I would guess that if we were to calculate strength-of-schedule values for only the title fights (which I'm not nerd enough to do), the SoS score would go up and not down. I think this would be true for all fighters, not just GSP, but his relative position on that list probably wouldn't change much. In fact, if anything, he might pass B.J. and place 1st.
vinny_cro_cop_q
3/28/10 12:37:32PM

Posted by cmill21

I hate how he fights, ever since the Serra thing it's been nothing but fighting safe. IMO it's not enough to be dominant, you need to be exciting and GSP isn't anymore IMO.



I couldnt agree more. I respect the guy, he wins fights even though it maybe boring, but I didnt see him really hit hardy much of the fight. I know he was going for alot of subs. He should of had hardy finished though. So Im not really liking gsp fights anymore
chickmagnet
3/28/10 1:11:28PM
Seriously...GSP was seconds away from tearing Hardys arm off of his body with the kimura. Im pretty sure he fought that fight trying to win.
gartface
3/28/10 1:30:17PM

Posted by chickmagnet

Seriously...GSP was seconds away from tearing Hardys arm off of his body with the kimura. Im pretty sure he fought that fight trying to win.


When I pull myself away from my actual distaste for him, I agree. He had an armbar, and a kimura in deep at two different spots. With that being said, I still feel he ground out a majority of that fight. He tried ending it a few times, but for the most part he was grinding.

To me, that's WHY he is the champion. He's dominant, he knows what he's doing. He doesn't take as many chances as the average fighter, maybe it's him being gun shy since the first Serra fight, or it's him realizing his strength is in dominating position. Until someone is good enough off of their back to stop him, I don't see him losing ever again at 170. And it pains me to say that.
chickmagnet
3/28/10 2:13:16PM

Posted by gartface


Posted by chickmagnet

Seriously...GSP was seconds away from tearing Hardys arm off of his body with the kimura. Im pretty sure he fought that fight trying to win.


When I pull myself away from my actual distaste for him, I agree. He had an armbar, and a kimura in deep at two different spots. With that being said, I still feel he ground out a majority of that fight. He tried ending it a few times, but for the most part he was grinding.

To me, that's WHY he is the champion. He's dominant, he knows what he's doing. He doesn't take as many chances as the average fighter, maybe it's him being gun shy since the first Serra fight, or it's him realizing his strength is in dominating position. Until someone is good enough off of their back to stop him, I don't see him losing ever again at 170. And it pains me to say that.



Well there is no other fighter who can play the game like he does. His athleticism is many levels above everyone else. And yes he doesn't take as many chances as the "average" fighter, maybe its because he is he smartest fighter in MMA. He takes the fight where he is 100 percent sure he will win. He isn't gun shy. He stood and traded with Thiago and BJ, who are much better strikers than Serra.

I used to not be a fan of St. Pierre, being a die hard BJ Penn fan, but anyone who is a fan of true Martial Arts, and champion spirit has got to be a fan of St. Pierre. He is the best, and your right, I doubt anyone has what it takes to beat him.
cmill21
3/28/10 4:12:45PM
We know exactly what GSP will be doing, taking you the f down and holding you there(he does do work but not like he's going to JDS you on the ground) for the entire fight. These guys myswell accept that they're going for a ride the whole night.
CwB
3/28/10 5:06:31PM
I would like to see his ground game focus more on damage then positioning. I have no problems with his dec. wins but I would like to see more punches/elbows being thrown throughout the domination...
Shawn91111
3/28/10 9:38:25PM
Where is Tuvok when you need him
D0wnUnd6e6r
3/28/10 9:50:25PM
wow, this is definitely a hater's thread... never thought something like this would hold up on the playground's forums. Overall though I did laugh alot reading some posts . It's just smart fighting really, I mean why risk it all in every round when your champ ??? There is absolutely no logic in just going all out and not following a strict gameplan when we're talking about a championship fight. Why risk standing for 5 rounds and getting caught with a random punch at some point, why even give the other fighter a chance to win if you can totally shut his game down?!?! GSP is a very dominant athlete and he obviously likes to use his skills in every fight. What's the big problem about sticking to what your awesome in to win fights? Is it just because it's GSP? I definitely think that it has something to do with it. I haven't heard much people talk down on Jon Fitch for the way he wins his fights which lately have been nothing but uds (and at times not so exciting at all) . Anyways, GSP is THE MAN, he always follows his gameplan and obviously it's working for him. Why try to fix something that isin't broken?
State_Champ
3/28/10 11:04:26PM

Posted by CwB

I would like to see his ground game focus more on damage then positioning. I have no problems with his dec. wins but I would like to see more punches/elbows being thrown throughout the domination...



A few stats from FightMetric:

11 takedowns landed (previous high, 10 vs. Alves)
6 submission attempts (previous high, 5 vs. Koscheck)
26 positional improvements (previous high, 14 vs. Miller)

Less impressive was the total number of heavy strikes landed by GSP. After landing a career-high 106 HiPer Strikes against Jon Fitch, St. Pierre's striking tally has declined in each of his last three fights:

49 vs. Penn (in four rounds)
41 vs. Alves
35 vs. Hardy

...Not that these stats aren't impressive (they are!) but there seems to be a trend.
Pookie
3/29/10 5:45:54AM
When you put this in the context of the P4P arguement i think its a valid point. Gsp doesnt have the finishing ability that BJ, Fedor, And anderson have, well actually he may, but if thats the case then he chooses not to use it.

Now i dont have any problems with his style, but i also havent enjoyed a performance of his since the second fight with Matt Hughes.

And anyone that still thinks gsp has a chance at taking Anderson is out of their minds IMO. Hardy exposed a hole in gsp's stand-up. If you have a relatively similar reach, gsp is not going to be able to throw any power on his shots and he'll also still be in range for the counter.
marcoDGK
3/29/10 12:18:16PM
my problem with GSP is...

He didn't have the killer instinct to break that fools arm. Is he that respectful of a fighter that he will not break someones arm to win? He won that fight many times. He just didn't have the heart to break his arm...



gartface
3/29/10 1:03:38PM
Credit has to be given to Hardy for surviving. GSP is the best fighter in the world right now in my opinion. He's not getting beat anytime soon. His fighting style might not be exciting to a lot of people, including myself, but he's incredible. I can't deny the fact he's smart and follows a gameplan to a T.
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