What is a more practical martial art?? judo or bjj

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ufc88
2/27/08 6:38:37AM
when it comes to everyday life and defending themselves on the street, aside from the striking arts what do you think is more effective?do a lot of judo throws work without a gi?
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fullerene
2/27/08 8:43:04AM
This topic lies somewhere between "Pride vs. UFC" and "Bruce Lee in MMA" for the likelihood of devolving into a flame war. Typically these discussions won't provide a clear answer.

But since you said:

when it comes to everyday life and defending themselves on the street
rather than appicability to MMA I think judo is a more logical answer. The reason is that most BJJ "rolling" starts on the knees or back to back and the vast majority of submissions start on the ground. In judo, most of the sparring (rondori) is started on the feet, which is where any realistic self-defense situation will begin. I've seen a few different self-defense systems and every one of them has the defender stay on their feet--whether they take the atttacker off of their feet or not. It's assumed that the attacker is larger/stronger and/or there may be other attackers involved, so following them to the floor and controlling them there is not advisable.

As far as the gi is concerned, both traditional BJJ and Judo use a gi. Many (most) of the judo throws rely on a gi grip and so do many (most) of the BJJ subs--at least from the guard. Some won't work without a clothing grip (like a tomanage or a lapel choke) but many will work, just not as easily. Remember, though, that in a self-defense situation the person might be wearing a jacket or sweatshirt that provides a lot of the same options as a gi would.
Rush
2/27/08 9:54:03AM
Fullerene has a pretty complete answer to which I concur. Judo

Why?

In short, on the street, if you are rolling on the ground with someone you are in trouble because it is rarely one on one and it is hard to protect your family or friends laying down.

If you look at the Gracie JJ tapes on street self-defense they are composed of classical jujutsu techniques.

I would take classical jujutsu (like Daito Ryu) over judo or BJJ for self-defense any day, but considering the choices presented I will choose judo.
kMMAs
2/27/08 10:13:53AM
Aside from sport MMA, I always think "steet application" discussions have too many variables. Even when taking striking out of the equation.... In "self defense" I assume your overall goal is to find a way to safely get yourself the hell out of that situation. So, If a guy were coming at you straight on, I would say Judo has better options.. throw him, slam him, redirect his balance...then run. But if you were to be tackled from behind or jumped without seeing it coming I would say BJJ has better options, sweep him off, shrimp out, upa, create safer distance to again, RUN...

Like I said tho, too many variables... both arts rock, and Id feel sorry for the drunken bar tough guy, or unarmed crack head trying to mug a solid practitioner of either art....
Rush
2/27/08 10:40:30AM

Posted by kMMAs

Aside from sport MMA, I always think "steet application" discussions have too many variables. Even when taking striking out of the equation.... In "self defense" I assume your overall goal is to find a way to safely get yourself the hell out of that situation. So, If a guy were coming at you straight on, I would say Judo has better options.. throw him, slam him, redirect his balance...then run. But if you were to be tackled from behind or jumped without seeing it coming I would say BJJ has better options, sweep him off, shrimp out, upa, create safer distance to again, RUN...

Like I said tho, too many variables... both arts rock, and Id feel sorry for the drunken bar tough guy, or unarmed crack head trying to mug a solid practitioner of either art....



Judo does have ground work and I would put a judoka against an average guy on the ground any day.

Regarding the running aspect, it is not that simple

1) what if you cannot run fast?
2) what if you have family with you? Are you going to take off on them?

Running is certainly a safe and desireable way to avoid confrontation, but you have to know when to do it.
silverbullet
2/27/08 12:36:10PM
I have 2 years of Judo experience and 6 months of BJJ experience and have thought of this question quite a bit. Judo is a traiditional self-defense martial art that was developed into a sport. Large portion of the Judo competition involves throwing the guy to the ground, while remaining standing yourself. Ground fighting exists but it is largely retarded because the fight can be won by pinning the opponent, and very many moves are prohibited. That's why Judo guys "suck" on the ground when compared to the BJJ practitioners. Judo is all about throws while standing and control (pins) on the ground so that's where Judokas shine.

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is purely a sport. In BJJ your first step is to tie the guy up and take him to the ground, which is precisely the last thing you want to do in a real-life self-defense scenario 99% of time.

Personally, I like practicing BJJ better because it's not as high-impact as Judo. While training for BJJ i realize that it is purely a sport and most of the moves are "useless" in a self-defense scenario. Judo is also pretty much useless and should be relied upon as a last resort. But it's probably "less useless" compared to BJJ.

My 2 cents.
MattHughes
2/27/08 1:07:32PM
I can't really say because I have never trained Judo, but I do take BJJ gi and nogi.
Standup - Judo is better
Ground - BJJ is better

95% of fights go to the ground, me personally I'd rather know more ground work.
MattHughes
2/27/08 1:12:53PM
Why would you say they are useless? and why would you say taking someone down in a fight is bad? Doesn't make sense.

BJJ teaches you how do pass someones guard and work your way to side control and mount. If you mount someone in a fight you better win that fight lol. Also, if you are on your back you can use sweeps, the moves will work if you know how to do them.

You just have to use common sense when applying submissions into a street fight, if you go for an armbar look to sweep him onto his back right away and don't give him a chance to pick you up and slam you.
richieb19
2/27/08 1:16:45PM
I can't remember where I read this, but Osoto Gari is responsible for the largest percentage of deaths caused by street fights in Japan. Take that for what it's worth.
silverbullet
2/27/08 5:22:14PM

Posted by MattHughes

I can't really say because I have never trained Judo




You should have stopped typing right there, Matt!


Posted by MattHughes

95% of fights go to the ground, me personally I'd rather know more ground work.



Do you have any data to back that up or did that number just sort of drop out of your ass?


Posted by MattHughes

Why would you say they are useless?



because they do not teach you how to stop a bullet
ufc88
2/27/08 6:45:18PM
so if some of you are saying theyre both not that practical would you say striking is the most important
richieb19
2/27/08 6:52:05PM
In case any of you where not aware, that is Kosei Inoue in the pic. One of the greatest judoka's today!!!

Go to judovision.com and look up his stuff. Amazing.
silverbullet
2/27/08 7:10:19PM

Posted by ufc88

so if some of you are saying theyre both not that practical would you say striking is the most important



What is your definition of "practicality"? BJJ and Judo teach you how to defeat an opponent in a controlled environment. Everything is regulated, from the thickness of the mat, to your opponent's attire. Neither sport teaches you how to deal with multiple attackers, weapon scenarios, etc. Both BJJ and Olympic Judo are "sports" which means that any move that could potentially permanently incapacitate one of the participants is almost certainly banned. Any BJJ school can teach you 1001 arm locks, but they will not teach you how to properly react to aggressive behavior, how to diffuse a dangerous situation, how to strike and get the hell out. Same with Judo.

I am going to catch flame for this, but for "self-defense" martial arts try TKD or Krav Maga or something.
richieb19
2/27/08 7:13:17PM

Posted by silverbullet

I am going to catch flame for this, but for "self-defense" martial arts try TKD or Krav Maga or something.

TKD is also an Olympic sport which regulates points and attire. Krav Maga, however is specifically made to defend multiple attackers.
Rush
2/27/08 7:57:00PM

Posted by silverbullet


because they do not teach you how to stop a bullet





No offence, but this is a statement I generally loathe to hear in these types of discussions. If that attitude is implied by everyone, then really we should all be carrying guns and wearing BP vests for self-defense.

As much as it generally disturbs me to think of a situation where someone might pull a gun on me, I generally think that it is more likely you will be attacked by hand, knife or other object (like a bottle) and that any martial art will be beneficial to your surviving the incident, but some will certainly prepare you better than others.
MattHughes
2/28/08 12:04:48AM

Posted by silverbullet


Posted by MattHughes

I can't really say because I have never trained Judo




You should have stopped typing right there, Matt!


Posted by MattHughes

95% of fights go to the ground, me personally I'd rather know more ground work.



Do you have any data to back that up or did that number just sort of drop out of your ass?


Posted by MattHughes

Why would you say they are useless?



because they do not teach you how to stop a bullet



A) I said I didn't train Judo because I don't like talking about stuff that I don't have experience in.

B) I've heard it on many sites including BJJ sites but no I don't have a source but just use common sense most fights go to the ground

C) You're an idiot...why even train in something if "its not going to protect you from a bullet"

I'm just trying to give my advice and you come off as a dick
kMMAs
2/28/08 9:01:36AM
I was looking at it as a situation where you are alone, get attacked, and need to defend yourself. If I had family or someone else to protect, Id look at it much differently. LIke I said, too many variables involved. Ive never taken any type of "self-defense" class, I just assumed that thier main goal is to neutralize a situation and get yourself in position to get away.

I feel which ever you train would be better for you. I know judo has ground work, but dont you put more emphasis on throws? And leave grappling on the ground as a second option? Maybe Im wrong, I train BJJ not Judo, so im just guessing. Like I said tho, any training is better than none, just being used to physical contact and an agressive situation is good. Im NOT saying BJJ is better, but since thats what I train, thats where I PERSONALLY would feel most comfortable, on the ground, where I know I can control someones hips, balance, and overall movement. A Judo guy would obviously feel different.
kMMAs
2/28/08 9:03:43AM
^^^How do you reply to a topic so its shows someones pervious response. I hit "reply" on their comment but it still only shows my response....Im a little slow with computers...
fullerene
2/28/08 9:54:15AM

Posted by kMMAs

^^^How do you reply to a topic so its shows someones pervious response. I hit "reply" on their comment but it still only shows my response....Im a little slow with computers...


Hit the 'Quote' button.
silverbullet
2/28/08 10:04:48AM

Posted by kMMAs

I was looking at it as a situation where you are alone, get attacked, and need to defend yourself. If I had family or someone else to protect, Id look at it much differently. LIke I said, too many variables involved. Ive never taken any type of "self-defense" class, I just assumed that thier main goal is to neutralize a situation and get yourself in position to get away.

I feel which ever you train would be better for you. I know judo has ground work, but dont you put more emphasis on throws? And leave grappling on the ground as a second option? Maybe Im wrong, I train BJJ not Judo, so im just guessing. Like I said tho, any training is better than none, just being used to physical contact and an agressive situation is good. Im NOT saying BJJ is better, but since thats what I train, thats where I PERSONALLY would feel most comfortable, on the ground, where I know I can control someones hips, balance, and overall movement. A Judo guy would obviously feel different.



As a person who studied both Judo and BJJ, I'd say that Judo is better in this respect. The whole idea behind stand-up in Judo is that you put the other person on the ground while remaining standing and "battle-ready". By Judo philosophy, you're not considered battle-ready if you are laying on your back. So basically in a self-defense scenario you can toss somebody to the ground, and take off running.

Let me reiterate myself and say that studying a martial art for the purposes of self-defense is idiotic. If you are worried about personal safety, buy a handgun, obtain a carry permit, and take some tactical shooting classes. Yes, the army and special forces and whatnot take some hand-to-hand combat training, but they do it to compliment their weapons training, as a last resort option.
The_Notorious_ZIG
3/9/08 2:26:59PM
I am a nobody at either discipline as I've only been training 9 months, but the style of submission grappling I train in teaches both judo and jujitsu (as well as sambo and wrestling techniques). That said....I would have to agree that judo is more practicle or effective in a real life situation. Especially when you consider trying to break fall on concrete or asphalt. I would also have to agree that if you are looking for training for real life street situations....Krav Maga is probably your best bet.

We train 2 weeks Gi and 2 weeks no Gi and I 'll just say that the throws are absolutely brutal. They also can be applied with or without a Gi....just ask Karo.

In the grappling tournaments that I've attended and/or competed in I've noticed some of the differences in styles. While BJJ guys have great techniques, transistions and set ups....I've noticed that alot of times when faced with a good judo guy or even a wrestler...the BJJ guys will often be quick to pull guard or butt scoot instead of facing a throw or slam. While this is smart in a grappling competition.....its not always the most practicle or efective in a real life situaion.

I've also been told that judo and jujitsu have similar origins in Japan and was brought to Brazil later on where it was modified to exclude alot of the throws. I haven't done my own research, but I trust the source and know him to be very knowledgeable and a bit of a history buff. I can also say from experience that the throws are difficult to learn.
The-Don
5/19/08 1:47:57PM
The Japanese police basicly answered this same question when trying to decide what to teach thier officers. Either Judo or Jujitsu... Basicly they asked top practicioners of both styles to come and and bascily compete... Judo from what I understand won hands down/// Now this does not mean Jujitsu is not as good... but for a street situation.. Judo leaves you on your feet which is where a policeman or anyone would rather be. and for hte record... I have studied both and would agree.. THough on one one there is nothing like taking a guy to the ground and choking him out
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