Political Debate

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Svartorm
4/3/07 1:40:44AM
Conversely, just because you knocked up your girlfriend, I should be punished with higher taxes because you can't afford a delivery? Does that seem fair?

Theres a saying that goes something like "Democracy only lasts until the people find out they can vote themselves more money." If everyone was prodcutive and responsible, we'd have far less problems in this country, but most people are willing to sell everyone else down the river for a free ride.

And the reason its thousands of dollars for a delivery is because people don't pay for them, thereby making the next delivery more expensive, making it harder for people to pay, and creating a vicious cycle, hence why it costs $30 for an advil in a hospital. A hospital is bound by law to take in every single patient though, even the ones who have absolutely no intention of paying for their services, and are abusing the system.

Talk with some medical personnel and you'll hear all kinds of great stories about the homeless who pretend their having heart problems so they can get a free meal and bed, the junkies that claim back injuries to get free pain meds to get high on, people who will go the hospital for a bee sting or a splinter because they're too lazy to take care of it themselves, etc. Not a good situation at all.


mkiv9secsupra
4/3/07 1:49:50AM

Posted by Svartorm

Conversely, just because you knocked up your girlfriend, I should be punished with higher taxes because you can't afford a delivery? Does that seem fair?

Theres a saying that goes something like "Democracy only lasts until the people find out they can vote themselves more money." If everyone was prodcutive and responsible, we'd have far less problems in this country, but most people are willing to sell everyone else down the river for a free ride.

And the reason its thousands of dollars for a delivery is because people don't pay for them, thereby making the next delivery more expensive, making it harder for people to pay, and creating a vicious cycle, hence why it costs $30 for an advil in a hospital. A hospital is bound by law to take in every single patient though, even the ones who have absolutely no intention of paying for their services, and are abusing the system.

Talk with some medical personnel and you'll hear all kinds of great stories about the homeless who pretend their having heart problems so they can get a free meal and bed, the junkies that claim back injuries to get free pain meds to get high on, people who will go the hospital for a bee sting or a splinter because they're too lazy to take care of it themselves, etc. Not a good situation at all.





you care nothing about anyone else. that is perfectly fair for someone else to pay....i pay ******* taxes just like you. so your paying for me im paying for someone else and who knows somewhere down the road it comes back to you. and what the hell are you talking about the delivery gets more expensive?! you obviously do not know what the hell you are talking about...the bill gets paid NO MATTER WHAT...there is never an incident the bill isnt paid. half my damn family is in the medical field...i know exaclty how it is...yeah there are some people who are abusing it but it helps 1000 times more than it hurts... people who get "bee stings or splinters" are people who always have healthcare. youre whole phiolosophy is **** everyone and live for yourself.. you are worse than the ppl who abuse the damn system. you obviously do not know how it works..
disorderlyvision
4/3/07 1:57:08AM
i will never vote republican or democrat again. i think we need to get a third party in the mix i tend to side with the libertarians
Svartorm
4/3/07 2:07:03AM
First off, if you can't debate intelligently and without name-calling, don't post.

Yes, the bill gets paid no matter what, by the federal government, who in turn get the money from tax revenue, which comes from citizens. Do some reading on the subject of the health care system and you'll find that a majority of money pulled in to operate hospitals comes from taxes and social healthcare programs, which are themselves funded by taxes.

As for deliveries, what I said was an example of why health care is so expensive. I didn't mean that the next person to have a baby has to pay for the delivery of the previous, or whatever you thought I meant. The more people shrug off their responsiblity onto others, the more the responsible people have to pay, until the system eventually collapses. There are border hospitals in Cali. that have practically closed because of the influx of illegals who don't pay for healthcare and collapse the system.
Manfred
4/3/07 2:11:39AM

Posted by Svartorm

Thanks for the imput bro. Just out of curiousity, how does Saudi Arabia off-set the costs? Something to do with oil revenue?



Yeah, they have no taxes and pay everything with the oil money. (Kind of like Navada with gaming.)

The funny thing is every year they are in the negative because the royal family (10,000 people and counting) all get huge salaries and all kinds of free stuff. Land, cars, palaces, you name it. They are going to be dry in about 50 years or so and they'll be right back on camels.
(Matt Damon's speech to the Arab prince in Syriana was 100% accurate)
mkiv9secsupra
4/3/07 2:11:53AM

Posted by Svartorm

First off, if you can't debate intelligently and without name-calling, don't post.

Yes, the bill gets paid no matter what, by the federal government, who in turn get the money from tax revenue, which comes from citizens. Do some reading on the subject of the health care system and you'll find that a majority of money pulled in to operate hospitals comes from taxes and social healthcare programs, which are themselves funded by taxes.

As for deliveries, what I said was an example of why health care is so expensive. I didn't mean that the next person to have a baby has to pay for the delivery of the previous, or whatever you thought I meant. The more people shrug off their responsiblity onto others, the more the responsible people have to pay, until the system eventually collapses. There are border hospitals in Cali. that have practically closed because of the influx of illegals who don't pay for healthcare and collapse the system.



BUT THEY DO NOT INCREASE TAXES WHEN THE GOVERNMENT PAYS THE BILL....there is a set limit of funding. maybe you should read up....and what else can i do...you insult me and my lifestyle but my name calling is immature?

Your philosophy on healthcare is obvious still... you say screw everyone, its only important if it helps you... YOU ARE THE PEOPLE THAT DRAIN SOCIETY, maybe not in healthcare but your attitude is the kind that everyone hates..
Svartorm
4/3/07 2:17:34AM

Posted by Manfred


Posted by Svartorm

Thanks for the imput bro. Just out of curiousity, how does Saudi Arabia off-set the costs? Something to do with oil revenue?



Yeah, they have no taxes and pay everything with the oil money. (Kind of like Navada with gaming.)

The funny thing is every year they are in the negative because the royal family (10,000 people and counting) all get huge salaries and all kinds of free stuff. Land, cars, palaces, you name it. They are going to be dry in about 50 years or so and they'll be right back on camels.
(Matt Damon's speech to the Arab prince in Syriana was 100% accurate)



Yeah, I've read a bit about their royal families and how they live. They make Paris Hilton look like a thrift store shopper with the amount of cash they blow on themselves at any given moment, like how they'll fly into a city and rent an entire hotel for a week so they can fill it with hookers and booze while outside of the Holyland. As Borat would say "Naughty Naughty!"
hippysmacker
4/3/07 2:33:49AM
This is a devisive topic. I undrerstand everyone has their own strongly held opinions, but keep it clean and impersonal please. Otherwise I will delete the thread .
thanks
ADMIN
Svartorm
4/3/07 2:35:25AM

Posted by mkiv9secsupra

BUT THEY DO NOT INCREASE TAXES WHEN THE GOVERNMENT PAYS THE BILL....there is a set limit of funding. maybe you should read up....and what else can i do...you insult me and my lifestyle but my name calling is immature?

Your philosophy on healthcare is obvious still... you say screw everyone, its only important if it helps you... YOU ARE THE PEOPLE THAT DRAIN SOCIETY, maybe not in healthcare but your attitude is the kind that everyone hates..



Yes, but said limit can and will increase, and federal income taxes continously go up every year to fund this and other projects. If you don't believe me, bust our your W-2s and look. This is money that could potentially go towards national defense, schools, conservation land, or half a million other things, but instead goes to hospitals that can't pay their bills.

As for insulting you and your lifestyle, I specifically stated that that was not my intention. I used your situation as an example, not as an attack on you.

My philosophy on healthcare is not "screw everyone". Like I said, I'm all for helping someone who gets hit by a car, needs surgury unexpectedly, slips on an icy sidewalk and breaks a leg, etc etc. I don't believe in paying for someone who brought injury or emergency upon themselves due to a lack of foresight into the consequences of their actions. If you want to live a lifestyle where you put yourself in harms way (like a fighter, for instance), you have every right to do so, but you should be responsible for your own medical bills, as you're the one who put yourself in that situation, and it would be selfish to expect someone else to bail you out.

As for myself, I'm a Freemason, and hardly a drain on society. Our fraternity puts $2 million a day into hospitals, orphanages, special needs schools and thousands of charites. I believe heavily in charity over taxation, as it gives the option to give money, rather than demanding it. Being a young father-to-be, I'm sure you could use the tax money that you're paying out right now, rather than having it go towards the unscrupled folks I mentioned before.
Svartorm
4/3/07 2:37:50AM

Posted by hippysmacker

This is a devisive topic. I undrerstand everyone has their own strongly held opinions, but keep it clean and impersonal please. Otherwise I will delete the thread .
thanks
ADMIN



Its chill dude. Find me a thread on politics and/or religion that doesn't have some violent back-and-forth banter, and I'll do this.
mkiv9secsupra
4/3/07 2:47:53AM

Posted by Svartorm

Yes, but said limit can and will increase, and federal income taxes continously go up every year to fund this and other projects. If you don't believe me, bust our your W-2s and look. This is money that could potentially go towards national defense, schools, conservation land, or half a million other things, but instead goes to hospitals that can't pay their bills.

As for insulting you and your lifestyle, I specifically stated that that was not my intention. I used your situation as an example, not as an attack on you.

My philosophy on healthcare is not "screw everyone". Like I said, I'm all for helping someone who gets hit by a car, needs surgury unexpectedly, slips on an icy sidewalk and breaks a leg, etc etc. I don't believe in paying for someone who brought injury or emergency upon themselves due to a lack of foresight into the consequences of their actions. If you want to live a lifestyle where you put yourself in harms way (like a fighter, for instance), you have every right to do so, but you should be responsible for your own medical bills, as you're the one who put yourself in that situation, and it would be selfish to expect someone else to bail you out.

As for myself, I'm a Freemason, and hardly a drain on society. Our fraternity puts $2 million a day into hospitals, orphanages, special needs schools and thousands of charites. I believe heavily in charity over taxation, as it gives the option to give money, rather than demanding it. Being a young father-to-be, I'm sure you could use the tax money that you're paying out right now, rather than having it go towards the unscrupled folks I mentioned before.



the majority of health care is used for the elderly... have you ever had to worry about healthcare? i make plenty of money. i have paid more taxes than the hospital bill will cost...in my mind i have a right to this care. i dont ask for anything else from the government...ive broken bones, had cuts deep as the bone, been in car wrecks, fights... but i never went to the hospital. im 10 feet below in debt trying to get my MBA. medicaid was set up specifically for people like me..
Svartorm
4/3/07 3:39:52AM
The elderly is a whole 'nother bowl of politics I won't get into.

I haven't had insurance in 7 years or so, and I'm in the same boat in regard to injury. I did pro-wrestling uninsured for a few years and do NHB now. I've got my fair share of broken bones, bumps and bruises, and have sucked it up as best I can. Only time I've gone to the hospital was when I had a weight lifting accident and one of my testicles was about to blow up. Trust me, thats not something you can ignore. I paid out of pocket for it though.

Live by the sword, die by the sword.
Lay_N_Pray
4/3/07 3:22:56PM
Svartorm, though I disagree with you on some issues, you sure know your stuff and make excellent points.

I am all for leaving Iraq. We killed Hussein which is good now let them worry about their own problems. I was for the war, but now it is time to come back home. I'm not sayin all at once, but slowly pull out and leave them be over there.

I'm against illegal immigration and I think something should be done, but to be honest neither the democrats or the republicans have a way to fix that problem right now.

Health care is a tricky issue. I do not like paying for other peoples health care either but on a case to case basis I dont mind. If something traumatic happened and the person needs help I think its ok to toss some cash over their way. But a person who abuses alcohol and drugs shouldnt be surprised when they get ill and then need everyones money.

Its still VERY early and hopefully someone will pull out in front with some solid solutions or at least attempts.

By the way, the whole McCain thing was not serious, I just like giving the guy flack for the comment, I know he is a pretty badass guy and all and I would never let that influence my vote
roadking95th
4/4/07 12:19:11AM
Alan Keyes would have been great 8 years ago, when I wrote him in, but he had sold his principles when he ran for Senate in Illinois.

The Republicans are now the Dems of old and the Dems are Socialists, some even leaing towards being commies.

All in all, politicians are politicians. They all suck. It isn't a matter of where you want the gov't to go, but rather how fast you wanna get there.

I would really like to vote FOR somebody and not against somebody, but that did me little good last November. Would prob hold my nose and vote for Fred Thompson if he ran 'cause I doubt we will get a true conservative on the ballot, though if one would get the nomination we would be looking at a landslide victory.

I know, I know, just shut up and pay your taxes! Hell, why should anyone half to pay more than 25% in total taxes. I said total, not just payroll, hell for that matter, our compensation for working was never meant to be taxed.

Oh well, this whole political debate could take up hours of my time.

Keep it civil, don't respond to this topic if you can't present facts and leave the name calling at home. Well, I guess thats only a natural tactic for libs though. Sorry couldn't resist
mkiv9secsupra
4/4/07 12:38:26AM
Why does everyone think this isnt personal?! EVERYTHING involved with politics is personal....not one bit of it is business... stop saying nothing is personal.
Svartorm
4/4/07 4:48:59AM

Posted by roadking95th

Alan Keyes would have been great 8 years ago, when I wrote him in, but he had sold his principles when he ran for Senate in Illinois.

The Republicans are now the Dems of old and the Dems are Socialists, some even leaing towards being commies.

All in all, politicians are politicians. They all suck. It isn't a matter of where you want the gov't to go, but rather how fast you wanna get there.

I would really like to vote FOR somebody and not against somebody, but that did me little good last November. Would prob hold my nose and vote for Fred Thompson if he ran 'cause I doubt we will get a true conservative on the ballot, though if one would get the nomination we would be looking at a landslide victory.

I know, I know, just shut up and pay your taxes! Hell, why should anyone half to pay more than 25% in total taxes. I said total, not just payroll, hell for that matter, our compensation for working was never meant to be taxed.

Oh well, this whole political debate could take up hours of my time.

Keep it civil, don't respond to this topic if you can't present facts and leave the name calling at home. Well, I guess thats only a natural tactic for libs though. Sorry couldn't resist



Agreed whole-heartedly. Like I said, Alan Keyes is too Christian Conservative for me, but overall not a bad guy. I don't think hes electable though, as hes black. As sad as it is, a majority of the South, Midwest and elderly will never vote for a black man, no matter how good he'd be for this country. Maybe someday, but not now.

As for voting against someone, I hate to say I do it, but I do. I always say "This time I vote for the one who will do the best job." but once I'm in that booth I go for the one who I think can win and do the least damage. The last few elections have just been too close, and when you're looking at the moonbat running in the blue party, it makes me way too nervous to vote for a Libertarian or Conservative I know can't win.

As for Fred Thompson, I've heard a lot about him lately, but haven't done any serious reading up on his stances. According to a local paper today, hes aparently already ahead of Mitt Romney on some polls, and he hasn't even officially started running yet.
hippysmacker
4/4/07 4:51:57AM
He was an actor, maybe he'll be another Reagan? Anyway, i don't trust any of them. I figure I'm getting a foot up my ass either way, and just want the one with the smallest shoe. I think Hillary wears size 18 combat boots. Maybe Thompson is a small-footed slipper wearing guy
Svartorm
4/4/07 5:05:21AM

Posted by Lay_N_Pray

Svartorm, though I disagree with you on some issues, you sure know your stuff and make excellent points.

I am all for leaving Iraq. We killed Hussein which is good now let them worry about their own problems. I was for the war, but now it is time to come back home. I'm not sayin all at once, but slowly pull out and leave them be over there.

I'm against illegal immigration and I think something should be done, but to be honest neither the democrats or the republicans have a way to fix that problem right now.

Health care is a tricky issue. I do not like paying for other peoples health care either but on a case to case basis I dont mind. If something traumatic happened and the person needs help I think its ok to toss some cash over their way. But a person who abuses alcohol and drugs shouldnt be surprised when they get ill and then need everyones money.

Its still VERY early and hopefully someone will pull out in front with some solid solutions or at least attempts.

By the way, the whole McCain thing was not serious, I just like giving the guy flack for the comment, I know he is a pretty badass guy and all and I would never let that influence my vote



Thanks bro. I like these kinds of discussions, but they're difficult to find online. The only time I get to talk politics is on a firearms forum I frequent, and in that case you're pretty well just agreeing with each other the whole time. Its nice to mix it up.

Iraq is a very tricky situation. The very short version is there should have never been an occupation. The place should have been leveled like in the first Gulf War, and it would have bought us another decade or so. I'm sure I've mentioned it before, but anyone interested in the war should read a book called Jefferson's War. Its about the Barbary Wars of the early 1800's, which was the United States first war against Islamic Extremists, and shows the mind-set of the people. They're not a people you can beat down and let get back up, because they'll assume you're weak and try to kill you again. Conversely, once you start leveling their cities and they figure out you mean business, they start doing well to keep their extreme factions in check.

I think the main problem with the insurgents is that the populous are not policing themselves. If everytime an IED went off and killed US troops, the airforce leveled that city block, the people would be much more likely to turn in the extremists responsible. They're doing something similar in the Philipines right now, who have had problems with Islamic extremists since the early 1900's, and its apparently working. They're offering bounties on terrorists, and the people are jumping at the opportunity. I could be mistaken, but I think they arrested and convicted 81 people in a two or three month period.

As for illegal immigration, I'm very much against it as well. The politicians are going to drag their feet on this issue, so its really up to the public to voice their opinion on this and get something done. I've gone the route of boycott, as the way to hurt an industry hiring illegals the most is by closing your wallet to them. I refuse to buy any products made by Perdue, Tyson or Dunkin Donuts, as they are the three companies who hire the most illegals. I also refuse to buy any product with Spanish packaging, as it appeals to the illegal population who don't speak English.
Svartorm
4/4/07 5:08:00AM

Posted by hippysmacker

He was an actor, maybe he'll be another Reagan? Anyway, i don't trust any of them. I figure I'm getting a foot up my ass either way, and just want the one with the smallest shoe. I think Hillary wears size 18 combat boots. Maybe Thompson is a small-footed slipper wearing guy



Another Reagan would be great right about now. Just a man that can get things done and has a backbone would be a splended change of pace.
jdubs
4/4/07 7:16:14PM
like i said earlier, vote for michael savage and we will no longer have any problems
AlmightyThor
4/4/07 10:50:12PM

Posted by Manfred


Posted by Svartorm

Thanks for the imput bro. Just out of curiousity, how does Saudi Arabia off-set the costs? Something to do with oil revenue?



Yeah, they have no taxes and pay everything with the oil money. (Kind of like Navada with gaming.)

The funny thing is every year they are in the negative because the royal family (10,000 people and counting) all get huge salaries and all kinds of free stuff. Land, cars, palaces, you name it. They are going to be dry in about 50 years or so and they'll be right back on camels.
(Matt Damon's speech to the Arab prince in Syriana was 100% accurate)



Funny thing is when they run dry, we all run dry. i think that would actually collapse our current economy since everything takes a little bit of oil to make now. God this scenario sucks...
roadking95th
4/5/07 12:44:03AM
I believe we are not running out of oil anytime soon. There are theories that the Earth is continuously producing oil, it is a by product. Even so, with the increasing costs of oil, it is becoming more economically feasible to drill deeper and remotely.

Saudia Arabia's chief role in the oil business is to stockpile it, to help regulate the dips and gains in production. Well, something to that effect anyway, someone else could explain it better.

Shale oil is becoming an option. The USAF is starting to use natural gas to produce oil. I forget the technique, but it becomes feasible once oil hits $70. This technology can then be used to make shale oil, which the US has the most. I mean, think Middle East quantities. Once perfected, experts think it could be as little as $7-$10 a barrel.

I could go on and on, but in short, we aint running out anytime soon. It is sort of like the enviromental wackos...the earth is going to end in 20 years, well it's been 25. We were supposed to be nearing the end of our supply by now and we haven't.
Manfred
4/5/07 12:54:40AM

Posted by AlmightyThor

Funny thing is when they run dry, we all run dry. i think that would actually collapse our current economy since everything takes a little bit of oil to make now. God this scenario sucks...



I think that by the time Saudi runs out, alternative fuels will be much more available.

And I didn't say the WORLD is running out, just the Saudis. At the rate they are pumping, they will be dry in 50 years or so.

We are an oil economy, no doubt. But things are changing, and changing at a faster rate in the last couple years then ever before. Even "Big Oil" companies are realizing it and putting up ethanol and hydrogen stations.
Svartorm
4/5/07 12:57:54AM
Very true. The only legit concern I've heard about oil production is that China is starting to become heavily industrialized, which will eat up huge portions of oil.
Manfred
4/5/07 1:00:20AM

Posted by roadking95th

Shale oil is becoming an option. The USAF is starting to use natural gas to produce oil. I forget the technique, but it becomes feasible once oil hits $70. This technology can then be used to make shale oil, which the US has the most. I mean, think Middle East quantities. Once perfected, experts think it could be as little as $7-$10 a barrel.



There is even a company in Canada that figured out how extract oil from sand. FLIPPIN' SAND! The name escapes me because they aren't publicly traded. I wanted to buy some stock and lost intrest when I couldn't.

Right now it's not cost-effective, but it will be. The point is that there are many options for oil but as you mentioned they will have to go more remote. Siberia is a prime example.

I think in 25 years, the number of cars that are gasoline only will be less than half. At least in the US.
Manfred
4/5/07 1:03:25AM

Posted by Svartorm

Very true. The only legit concern I've heard about oil production is that China is starting to become heavily industrialized, which will eat up huge portions of oil.



China has tripled it's oil consumption in the last 10 years. That's scary considering it's size. They are one of the primary reasons why oil has gone up so much in the last few years.
Svartorm
4/5/07 1:07:41AM
Right, and they're just getting the ball rolling over there too, which is why I think its a legit concern.
mkiv9secsupra
4/5/07 1:43:33AM
we will never run out of fuel....fossil fuels yes but with all the advancement in Diesel fuels which are basically renewable now youll start to see a lot more diesel running cars,etc...
Manfred
4/5/07 2:44:46AM

Posted by mkiv9secsupra

we will never run out of fuel....fossil fuels yes but with all the advancement in Diesel fuels which are basically renewable now youll start to see a lot more diesel running cars,etc...



I agree, bio-fuels will be the future. I saw an episode of "Future Cars" that featured alt. energy for cars. Pretty crazy stuff. They even had a car that ran off compressed air! They are working on fitting a compressor into the car so it recompresses it's own air and never has to be refilled...EVER!

Svartorm
4/5/07 3:00:23AM
But what does the compressor run on? Unless its some kind of perpetual motion machine, the compressor would need power, and those bastards use a lot of juice.
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