Points suggestion for stoppages

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Kpro
1/9/08 2:40:19AM
I realize we base this s**t off of the official decisions as far as point purposes for the season.

But am I the only one who gets frustrated when I don't get points because of:

TKO (Submission)
Submission (Strikes)

Who gives a s**t if they passed out before tapping or tapped while being punched.

I think the drop down menu in the reason for fight stoppage should be SUBMISSION or STRIKES; not TKO or submission.

And a TKO (submission) would still count as a submission.

And a Submission (strikes) would still count as a strikes stoppage.

Am I talking to myself or does anyone else feel the same?
ufcboss
1/9/08 3:12:02AM
Dont mean to shoot you down, But that idea sucks. Bang bang
Kpro
1/9/08 3:15:27AM
You have to be in the top 2000 for the season to have an opinion.

Bang.

Bang.
Rollins
1/9/08 3:21:14AM
Thats a cute little post UFC guy but he's got something here, I've never really gave it much thought until now so it's hard for me to say, might be splitting hairs, might be right on the money.
DonHagliatelli
1/9/08 4:46:13AM
I'm in two minds about this.

Technically a submission to strikes is still a submission.

You could say the fight has to be won via striking or subission move, I think that would solve this as in the situation above the fight would have been won via striking.
stock
1/9/08 7:39:40AM
I honestly don't care as long as the rules are clear for everyone.

On a personal note, I have always thought that "submission via strikes" should be lumped in with TKO/KO.

Under a new scoring methodology/currently, how were/would these fights have scored?

*Sherdog used to list Lutter as losing to Anderson Silva via submission (triangle), but now it lists it as submission (elbows).

*GSP vs Serra. Sherdog lists it as TKO although GSP was clearly tapping at the time of the ref stoppage.

grappler0000
1/9/08 11:25:13AM

Posted by Kpro

You have to be in the top 2000 for the season to have an opinion.

Bang.

Bang.



CornishMMA
1/9/08 12:18:16PM


Id never really worried about it ......... i dont remember a case where this has come in, has there been a submission due to strikes lately? ............. ahh i remember Kenny on Robinson, what was that given as? **EDIT** Yep now im totally on board 100% i picked Kenny to win by TKO but because Alvin tapped it was given as a submission! thats a crap system imo and it should ge the way Kpro said, come on admin/mods lets try and sort this out before the start of the new season**

Needlesss to say tho Kpro's system would sort that out, im sure subs have still been given when they havnt tapped but needless to say they always should be so i think its a great idea
EvilScott
1/9/08 12:26:39PM
I'd say thats pretty fair.

When I pick TKO I'm betting a stoppage due to strikes (whether the guy taps or the ref steps in or he goes unconscious)

When I pick Sub I'm picking that the guy succumbs to a submission (whether the ref steps in, the guys goes unconscious, or the guy taps)
CornishMMA
1/9/08 12:28:40PM

Posted by EvilScott

I'd say thats pretty fair.

When I pick TKO I'm betting a stoppage due to strikes (whether the guy taps or the ref steps in or he goes unconscious)

When I pick Sub I'm picking that the guy succumbs to a submission (whether the ref steps in, the guys goes unconscious, or the guy taps)


Well done that man for putting it so well, i was struggling to condense and explain it as good as that

The only example i can find of a NON Tap submission was at UFC 68, Drew didnt tap he went out and Kampman was slow breaking the hold, BUT that was still given on here as a submission
johnafirth
1/9/08 4:46:42PM

Posted by stock

I honestly don't care as long as the rules are clear for everyone.

On a personal note, I have always thought that "submission via strikes" should be lumped in with TKO/KO.

Under a new scoring methodology/currently, how were/would these fights have scored?

*Sherdog used to list Lutter as losing to Anderson Silva via submission (triangle), but now it lists it as submission (elbows).

*GSP vs Serra. Sherdog lists it as TKO although GSP was clearly tapping at the time of the ref stoppage.




For Anderson/Lutter, Lutter said it was the triangle he tapped to. He tried moving because of the elbows, and ended up in an even worse position for the choke.
stock
1/10/08 9:21:08AM

Posted by johnafirth


Posted by stock

I honestly don't care as long as the rules are clear for everyone.

On a personal note, I have always thought that "submission via strikes" should be lumped in with TKO/KO.

Under a new scoring methodology/currently, how were/would these fights have scored?

*Sherdog used to list Lutter as losing to Anderson Silva via submission (triangle), but now it lists it as submission (elbows).

*GSP vs Serra. Sherdog lists it as TKO although GSP was clearly tapping at the time of the ref stoppage.




For Anderson/Lutter, Lutter said it was the triangle he tapped to. He tried moving because of the elbows, and ended up in an even worse position for the choke.



Then why did Sherdog change the official result of the fight.
Anderson said in an interview that since he had horrible inflamation in his knee that he could not lock the triangle and that is why he started dropping elbows, thus forcing the tap.
That all being said, it was a pretty odd scenario and don't think there is any good way to score it that would make everyone happy. Since Lutter was in a triangle and the fight was originally scored as a tapout via triangle choke, it should have been scored as a submission victory.


IMO, EvilScott summed it up best.

I think 3 options are fair.

1. Stoppage via strikes/TKO/KO/DQ.
2. Stoppage via submission hold.
3. Decision

To be fair, scoring would always use the official scoring from fight night.
CornishMMA
1/11/08 9:40:08AM
Now is the time for the admin to change it, as it is it HASNT BEEN FAIR as they gave one the correct way and another the wrong way, you should get credit for picking Kenny by submission cos he GnP'd him, just cos he tapped ffs!

Please mods/admin can you implement or explain why you dont want too?
scoozna
1/11/08 11:52:35AM

Posted by EvilScott

I'd say thats pretty fair.

When I pick TKO I'm betting a stoppage due to strikes (whether the guy taps or the ref steps in or he goes unconscious)

When I pick Sub I'm picking that the guy succumbs to a submission (whether the ref steps in, the guys goes unconscious, or the guy taps)



That's the best way to sum it up - I think this makes a lot of sense and should be the basis going forward.
madmarck
1/11/08 4:05:24PM
but a submission due to strikes is a submisson. The ref stops the fight because a fighter taps. Making it a submission. There is no such thing as technincal knockout by tapout
Bemin
1/11/08 11:32:59PM
By that train of thought then shouldn't a choke where a fighter doesn't tap but goes out be considered a KO/TKO? He didn't submit after all. I hadn't really thought too much about it before, but the more I do the more I agree that a tap due to strikes should be a TKO.
telnights
1/12/08 1:34:08AM

Posted by madmarck

but a submission due to strikes is a submisson. The ref stops the fight because a fighter taps. Making it a submission. There is no such thing as technincal knockout by tapout





and Madmarck by submission or is it TKO j/k
npayant
1/15/08 9:40:00AM
I DEFINITELY agree that this should at least be taken into consideration. There have been MANY people having questionns about this over numerous events.

I know I have questioned it several times about past fights...

Example: The last HDNET fights (a secondary league bout):

MMAplayground: Spratt def Yunker VIA submission

Sherdog: Spratt def Yunker VIA TKO (cut)

MMAjunkie: Spratt Def Yunker VIA TKO (cut)


AND

MMAplayground: Osterneck def Freddie F. VIA TKO

Sherdog: Osterneck VIA submission (verbal)

MMAjunkie Osterneck VIA submission (verbal)

(I posted this info. in another post, but nothing ever got done about it). It was even determined that at least one of these fights should have definitely been changed on this site because they were wrong....BUT it never got changed.


CornishMMA
1/16/08 12:33:40PM

Posted by madmarck

but a submission due to strikes is a submisson. The ref stops the fight because a fighter taps. Making it a submission. There is no such thing as technincal knockout by tapout


No dude omg please get what we are saying, someone help me to explain this better, we are talking about submission holds and then strikes, its not to do with why the ref stops it per say, the ref is stopping the fight due to strikes (either by him not wanting to get hit anymore and tapping or cos he isnt intelligently defending himself), and in the same way the ref is stopping the fight due to a submission hold, whether he taps or not is irrelevant as its the sub hold thats won him the fight, its what the winning fighter has done to win rather than what the losing fight has done to lose, yaknow?

Know it or not but currently this site is biased towards picking submission, drew didnt tap to Kampman, he went out, but you still give it as a submission, then Kenny beats on Alvin, who taps, and you give it as a submission = this doesnt work and its not a fair system!

Instead of "SUBMISSION" we should have - SUBMISSION HOLD(S)
And instead of "KO/TKO" we should have - STRIKES (include punches, elbows, kicks, knees, slams - you could either add in extra points for these to make the game harder!)

Although ive just thought about Manny VS Diaz, an unrelated injury submission, hmmmmmmmmmmm ....................... ok well maybe have a third option of SUBMISSION (INJURY) / DISQUALIFICATION as you currently cant pick for someone to win by the other fighter getting DQ'd (which is something id want if Mike Kyle does get another fight!)

And after all that another option would be to just add in SUBMISSION (STRIKES) to the above one making it 1 pick for 3 unlikely finishes, 2 good compromises to the current crappy system imho!
LightsOut33093
1/17/08 3:39:44PM
alright...
-if a fight is finished by submission (strikes) then it will go down in history/official document as submission and thats not something that you can argue against and same thing for tko (submission)
CornishMMA
1/18/08 6:55:26AM

Posted by LightsOut33093

alright...
-if a fight is finished by submission (strikes) then it will go down in history/official document as submission and thats not something that you can argue against and same thing for tko (submission)


wow ............. that makes no sense at all!
It is something i can argue against because the fighter has won via strikes not by his BJJ, surely this cant be hard to grasp!

IMHO the admin are really dropping a ball by not changing this before the new season starts!!!!! Im sure there will be incidents of taps from strikes or guys not tapping and going out and thats when everyone is going to be pisssed off! If it means you lose real money even tho you picked it the best then damn!

So from now on people if you think fighter A will finish the fight by GnPing fighter B you need to pick it by submission just in case he taps - no worries on the opposite as it seems they will carry on giving it as submission even when they dont submit and go out, this is weak
LightsOut33093
1/18/08 7:38:57AM

Posted by CornishMMA


Posted by LightsOut33093

alright...
-if a fight is finished by submission (strikes) then it will go down in history/official document as submission and thats not something that you can argue against and same thing for tko (submission)


wow ............. that makes no sense at all!
It is something i can argue against because the fighter has won via strikes not by his BJJ, surely this cant be hard to grasp!

IMHO the admin are really dropping a ball by not changing this before the new season starts!!!!! Im sure there will be incidents of taps from strikes or guys not tapping and going out and thats when everyone is going to be pisssed off! If it means you lose real money even tho you picked it the best then damn!

So from now on people if you think fighter A will finish the fight by GnPing fighter B you need to pick it by submission just in case he taps - no worries on the opposite as it seems they will carry on giving it as submission even when they dont submit and go out, this is weak



What do you mean it makes no sense? You can't argue against the official scorer. If its submission (strikes) you cant argue that, its a submission. I mean, you guys want to change the OFFICIAL result of the mma organization of the state athletic association, you can't due that.
CornishMMA
1/18/08 10:49:12AM

Posted by LightsOut33093


Posted by CornishMMA


Posted by LightsOut33093

alright...
-if a fight is finished by submission (strikes) then it will go down in history/official document as submission and thats not something that you can argue against and same thing for tko (submission)


wow ............. that makes no sense at all!
It is something i can argue against because the fighter has won via strikes not by his BJJ, surely this cant be hard to grasp!

IMHO the admin are really dropping a ball by not changing this before the new season starts!!!!! Im sure there will be incidents of taps from strikes or guys not tapping and going out and thats when everyone is going to be pisssed off! If it means you lose real money even tho you picked it the best then damn!

So from now on people if you think fighter A will finish the fight by GnPing fighter B you need to pick it by submission just in case he taps - no worries on the opposite as it seems they will carry on giving it as submission even when they dont submit and go out, this is weak



What do you mean it makes no sense? You can't argue against the official scorer. If its submission (strikes) you cant argue that, its a submission. I mean, you guys want to change the OFFICIAL result of the mma organization of the state athletic association, you can't due that.


mate wtf are you even talking about??????????????? you are obviously so far away from grasping this concept i find it difficult to explain it any better!
The point we are making is that you pick that fighter to win that way because you think they will GnP them, it shouldnt matter if he taps or the ref stops it, its what the winning fighter does to win the fight RATHER than what the losing fighter does to lose the fight, we pick on the winner, not the loser

why you are saying about the commission is beyond me!?? the point is the STRIKES factor in that example, we are saying to change it to that, would you honestly be happy if you picked a guy like Rampage to win by GnP but becuase Forrest taps all the guys who picked Rampage to sub Forrest get the points? a submission should be from BJJ etc

SUBMISSION HOLD - should be 1 way to see a fight end
STRIKES - should be another way

I really dont know how i can explain it any simpler
CornishMMA
1/18/08 10:54:31AM

Posted by LightsOut33093

alright...
-if a fight is finished by submission (strikes) then it will go down in history/official document as submission and thats not something that you can argue against and same thing for tko (submission)


Best way to explain is to use your example here - instead of taking the 1st word we use the word in brackets as thats what finished the fight, either strikes or a submission hold, whether a fighter taps or not should be totally irrelevent ................ otherwise we have to pick on whats going on inside a fighters brain at a certain point in the fight and whether they will tap to strikes?

Did you think Kampman would sub McFedries?
Well he did but Drew didnt tap ....... are you seriously saying you want that given as a KO/TKO?

Did you think Florian would sub Robinson?
Well he didnt, he GnP'd him and then Alvin tapped ...... are you seriously saying you want that given as a SUBMISSION?

They are the opposites to what actually happened to end the fight, ITS THE MOVE WHICH ENDS THE FIGHT NOT WHAT THE LOSING FIGHTER DOES IN RESPONSE TO THE FINISH MOVE

ARRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH
LightsOut33093
1/18/08 6:52:37PM
I didnt get the concept you were trying to get across, about how the winner finishes, not how the loser loses...sorry about that.
--But I like the way it is right now.
madmarck
1/19/08 11:33:48AM
If we cant all agree then this site will have to come down for sure. There goes the neighbourhood.
Kpro
1/20/08 1:23:11AM
Official scorers are biased by organization.

For instance; one organization can have Submission (Strikes) for every TKO stoppage and the organization 2 cities over can list TKO (Strikes) for the EXACT same stoppage. MMaplayground.com just happens to base their fantasy MMA system after whatever Sherdog fightfinder says; which is only determined by the email of results sent in by the promotion which has zero editors verifying accuracy.

That being said, this site is a blast and I just became a premium member and I recommend everyone else pay the $12 and do the same for double payouts. And whichever way we head in the future, I fully support it.

Just want to get my opinion across :)
CornishMMA
1/21/08 11:25:46AM

Posted by LightsOut33093

I didnt get the concept you were trying to get across, about how the winner finishes, not how the loser loses...sorry about that.
--But I like the way it is right now.


Thats fair enough bud, but i think you also need to realise the way it is at the moment is just wrong and unbiased, it favours people picking submissions, and hilariously ironically you picked Kenny by sub and got the points even tho it should have been given as a TKo through GnP, and simlarly you lost points by Kampman choking out Drew as you picked KO and they didnt give it as that, which in our plan they would have, so in your case you would of still lost 1 and won 1 but they would have been more accurate picks to what you were picking on if you see what i mean, i really dont think you do like it the way it is at the moment

If you score Kennys win over Alvin as a submission then you HAVE TO score Kampmans wins over Drew as a KO/TKO - but they didnt!

Theres nothing to agree over Madmarck, you just have to have it one way or the other, not this bollox half inbetween way you do it currently, if this situation arises again soon and you havnt taken all this into account then i will direct everyone complaining about their KO pick not coming in to this thread where we sorted out the perfect way to have it but the admin simply ignored it!
madmarck
1/21/08 10:04:01PM

Posted by Kpro

Official scorers are biased by organization.

For instance; one organization can have Submission (Strikes) for every TKO stoppage and the organization 2 cities over can list TKO (Strikes) for the EXACT same stoppage.



A fight is never called a submission by Strikes unless a fighter taps out.
CornishMMA
1/24/08 9:55:00AM
That is true but when people choose their picks, if they pick submission they are picking some kind of BJJ move etc arent they? if you pick KO/TKO you think they will win with strikes so if you guys just changed it to suit that it would be alot more fair and accurate,, im still pretty sure you dont fully get the problem -

Posted by madmarck

but a submission due to strikes is a submisson. The ref stops the fight because a fighter taps. Making it a submission. There is no such thing as technincal knockout by tapout


There is KO/TKO (submission) where they were caught but didnt tap, Kampman over McFedries is the best example but for some reason you guys on here still gave it as a submission, dont get me wrong i think thats what it shoul dbe but its not in line with then you gave Kenny over Robinson as submission also, they favor picking submissions on here but that wouldnt be an accurate pick cos people picking that thought Kenny would RNC etc Kid, not make him tap from mounted strikes - how are you ever meant to foresee that??
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