The HW picture

MMAPlayground.com » MMA General » UFC Forum » The HW picture
sleevey
4/24/07 3:07:59PM
I Hate to say this yet everyone keeps talking about top level talent that crocop has faced.i believe there is much more to be said about that pride and ufc altough they were both mma they were 2 different org. with 2 sets of rules mirko said it himself he wasnt prepared for elbows.

Also the top teir guys from pride just fought each other over and over again Fedor/Nog, Fedor/Crocop, Crocop/Fedor, Nog/Crocop, Hunt/Crocop Barnett/Nog so on and so on. It was the same 5 guys always fighting each other. There was never any new talent, then the same guys. So how could that effect there rankings when number 2 loses to number 3 then he goes to number 4.

Anthor fact remains UFC test for suppliments pride didnt. Its sad to say but does that have an effect in the pride fighters sad showing against ufc fighters.Or was it the deversity in the weaker division (UFC) that has helped the UFC have a better start in the merge.Say what u want the numbers just dont lie.

What will be the next excuse when anthor big name pride HW loses. Just for the record im no UFC > Pride. I love the sport love the fact that we can truely see who the best really is. I guess only time will tell. I would love to hear everyone elses thoughts on this matter.
Fanboy 1988
4/24/07 3:27:10PM
I'm starting to think UFC's heavyweight's are alittle better, considering Heath and Cro Cop already lost one of there fights...

But then again I was suprised how badly Anderson beat the hell outta everyone in the middleweight class, and he didn't even do that good in pride and he blazed through there champ...

So I think it's still alittle to early to call which one has better fighters.
AchillesHeel
4/24/07 3:31:20PM
I read Cro Cop's comment about the elbows, and I think he realizes that was a mistake on his part. With few exceptions, the differences in the rules shouldn't ever be decisive. He just wasn't prepared, full stop, and he admitted as much. The elbows were only part of the problem.

As for the top guys in Pride only fighting each other over and over, I'd say that couldn't be further from the truth. By my count, Cro Cop fought 20 different opponents in 24 Pride fights. He fought Wanderlei Silva and Kevin Randleman twice, and Josh Barnett three times. Fedor has fought 12 different opponents in 14 Pride fights. He's fought Coleman and Nogueira twice each (I didn't count the NC with Nogueira, which isn't reflected in either man's W-L record).

If anything, you could criticize Pride for putting Fedor and Cro Cop in the ring with guys like Zuluzinho and Minowa. Those fights were like an episode of "Punk'd."
AchillesHeel
4/24/07 3:34:24PM

Posted by MakoVictim

I'm starting to think UFC's heavyweight's are alittle better, considering Heath and Cro Cop already lost one of there fights...

But then again I was suprised how badly Anderson beat the hell outta everyone in the middleweight class, and he didn't even do that good in pride and he blazed through there champ...

So I think it's still alittle to early to call which one has better fighters.


Don't forget that Josh Barnett - the 4th-best heavyweight in Pride until recently - is a former UFC champion. Obviously, the UFC has changed some since then.
sleevey
4/24/07 4:37:31PM
Very well spoken Achilliesheel yet before Barnet got booted from UFC for Steriods. He went 3-1 in the ufc with a victory over Randy and a tough loss to Rizzo who at the time was one of the most feared striker in the UFC. Yet to make my point clearer ha has fought crocop 3 times since 10/13/2003 and big nog twice. In which he has only fought 2 top 10 hw in alexs and hunt.

So how does that justify his number 4 ranking. that is my point exactly. i just wonder if the matchups we have seen skewed the HW rankings we look at?
MMA
4/24/07 4:41:04PM

Posted by MakoVictim

I'm starting to think UFC's heavyweight's are alittle better, considering Heath and Cro Cop already lost one of there fights...

But then again I was suprised how badly Anderson beat the hell outta everyone in the middleweight class, and he didn't even do that good in pride and he blazed through there champ...

So I think it's still alittle to early to call which one has better fighters.


Leben and Franklin both lost to Silva because they approached him the wrong way. Even though Lutter got submitted, he "exposed" Silva's weakness (i.e. poor TD). A strong wrestler who is knowledgeable in jiu-jutsu will prove to be a very difficult challenge to Silva.
methodman_90
4/24/07 5:11:24PM
I would love to see Shogun blazing through the LHW division in the UFC to shake it up abit. Chuck is his only real threat
Fanboy 1988
4/24/07 5:11:57PM


Leben and Franklin both lost to Silva because they approached him the wrong way. Even though Lutter got submitted, he "exposed" Silva's weakness (i.e. poor TD). A strong wrestler who is knowledgeable in jiu-jutsu will prove to be a very difficult challenge to Silva.



Silva was alot more technical then Leben that's why he beat him so badly.. And it seemed like Rich had no idea what to do in the clinch which sounds weird but it did...

But yeah Silva has a problem beating submission guys though, 2 outta his 4 losses were by submission.
Lay_N_Pray
4/24/07 7:23:29PM
Lets just agree on this...

I think that the way 2007 has gone for MMA there is no such thing as blazing through a division or any more excuses of not being prepared and what not. I'm not saying Cro Cop was making excuses or anything but everyone needs to realize a simple fact.

If you are fighting someone in Pride or UFC you better be ready to bring it, there is no such thing as a can anymore cause fighters are getting smarter and more confident in their own abilities daily. Serra clearly wasnt scared against Rush when they fought. Remo wasnt scared against Arona or Nog.

Gonzaga certainly wasnt scared against Cro Cop and if you ask me, I think that 20% of Cro Cops effectivness comes from the fact people are scared crapless of him. Take that away and he becomes human.

So every fighter in every division better be ready to fight because they all deserve to be there.
ButterBalls
4/24/07 8:18:00PM

Posted by MMA


Posted by MakoVictim

I'm starting to think UFC's heavyweight's are alittle better, considering Heath and Cro Cop already lost one of there fights...

But then again I was suprised how badly Anderson beat the hell outta everyone in the middleweight class, and he didn't even do that good in pride and he blazed through there champ...

So I think it's still alittle to early to call which one has better fighters.


Leben and Franklin both lost to Silva because they approached him the wrong way. Even though Lutter got submitted, he "exposed" Silva's weakness (i.e. poor TD). A strong wrestler who is knowledgeable in jiu-jutsu will prove to be a very difficult challenge to Silva.



lets not get ahead of ourselves here...Leben didn't lose to Silva because he approached him the wrong way. Leben lost to Silva because he is a C level fighter and Silva picked him apart.
sleevey
4/25/07 10:15:55AM
I really respect everyones point of view here. The only division im speaking of right now is Heavyweight. Although i would love to see other threads involving other weight classes and your thoughts how this breaks down please keep the feed back coming.
tomp6581
4/25/07 11:45:19AM

Posted by sleevey

Also the top teir guys from pride just fought each other over and over again Fedor/Nog, Fedor/Crocop, Crocop/Fedor, Nog/Crocop, Hunt/Crocop Barnett/Nog so on and so on. It was the same 5 guys always fighting each other. There was never any new talent, then the same guys.




Where are you getting your facts from?!

Cro Cop v Fedor only happened once as did Cro Cop V Big Nog and Cro Cop V Hunt.

And if you look at the times fighters have fought more than twice....

Fedor v Big Nog ( 2nd fight happened due to both getting to final of tournament then because it ended in a n/c a third was needed to crown a champion)

Cro Cop V Barnett (First fight was a freak win, Second a justified rematch, third a tournament fight)

History has shown that UFC is more "re-match" happy than pride ever was surely?......

As for the "never any new talent" comment.....

Alexander Emlainenko, Werdum, Mark Hunt, Sergei Kharitonov.......all fighters that made their way into the top 10 rankings through pride....
AchillesHeel
4/25/07 12:05:52PM

Posted by Lay_N_Pray

Lets just agree on this...

I think that the way 2007 has gone for MMA there is no such thing as blazing through a division or any more excuses of not being prepared and what not. I'm not saying Cro Cop was making excuses or anything but everyone needs to realize a simple fact.

If you are fighting someone in Pride or UFC you better be ready to bring it, there is no such thing as a can anymore cause fighters are getting smarter and more confident in their own abilities daily. Serra clearly wasnt scared against Rush when they fought. Remo wasnt scared against Arona or Nog.

Gonzaga certainly wasnt scared against Cro Cop and if you ask me, I think that 20% of Cro Cops effectivness comes from the fact people are scared crapless of him. Take that away and he becomes human.

So every fighter in every division better be ready to fight because they all deserve to be there.




An increasingly important attribute for top-level fighters will be their consistency, their ability to stay fit and healthy, to keep their heads in the game, and not underestimate their competition.

I still believe that guys like Cro Cop, BJ Penn, Arlovski, and GSP will take all but a few fighters to school when they've got their "game face" on. But if they don't, they'll lose as often as they win.
nubby
4/25/07 12:24:07PM

Posted by tomp6581

Alexander Emlainenko, Werdum, Mark Hunt, Sergei Kharitonov.......all fighters that made their way into the top 10 rankings through pride....


And that is where he points out a big flaw. Fans of MMA have always been quick to jump to the conclussion that pride is better. Granted, Fedor is probably the best no matter where he fights, but people said the same thing about Filipovic.

The point is you can't really say one group of fighters is superior to another if they haven't fought.

CC's loss has done damage to the luster of Pride. Now I find myself wondering if Brandon Vera should fight CC next.
johny_rotten
4/25/07 4:53:07PM
I think everyone is making to much of one fight. It is cliche, but match ups make fights, and this was a really bad one for Mirko. He also came out very flat. It doesnt jeopardize anything he did in the past, or Pride's legacy. It will motivate him, and he will start KOing guys again.

I think the main thing is how overlooked Gonzaga was. This is guy with world class ground skills. A guy that is amazingly quick for someone that is 240lbs. He is also a guy who is adapting to the feet a lot quicker than most thought was possible.
AdamG
4/25/07 5:00:42PM
I think you're all overlooking that the HW division is the hardest to stay at the top (except for Fedor). It is a division where even grapplers and submission fighters have knockout power because of their size.
The next big name Pride HW fighter to fight in the UFC will be Minotoro. Do you really think anyone in the UFC HW division could beat him? I'd give any heavyweight a puncher's chance, but not against Noguiera.
Manfred
4/25/07 5:29:07PM

Posted by AdamG
I'd give any heavyweight a puncher's chance, but not against Noguiera.


I'd give anyone a chance, period. Until his last two fights, 'lil Nog had never been KO'd and was widely considered as tough as big Nog.
AchillesHeel
4/25/07 5:31:19PM

Posted by Manfred


Posted by AdamG
I'd give any heavyweight a puncher's chance, but not against Noguiera.


I'd give anyone a chance, period. Until his last two fights, 'lil Nog had never been KO'd and was widely considered as tough as big Nog.


Exactly. They're not just brothers, they're identical twins, and neither of them had ever been (T)KO'd until Sokoudjou came along. Never say never, I guess.
Related Topics