Phelps' Record Breaking Moment

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BlueSkiesBurn
7/31/12 6:49:57PM
FlashyG, to be fair, swimming has 34 total events while Gymnastics & Rhythmic Gymnastics have 18 combined.
Shawn91111
7/31/12 6:54:08PM
He's not combining male and female events
BlueSkiesBurn
7/31/12 7:07:39PM

Posted by Shawn91111

He's not combining male and female events



It doesn't really matter if he is or he isn't since men & women compete in the same events. And I don't mean that with any sarcasm.

Really, it wouldn't make a difference if we halved it or not. More is more and less is less.
Shawn91111
7/31/12 7:15:35PM
It really doesnt even though they compete in different events in their sport it evens out.
BlueSkiesBurn
7/31/12 7:17:34PM

Posted by Shawn91111

It really doesnt even though they compete in different events in their sport it evens out.



I don't get what you're saying.

If you have 46 track events, that's 23 men & 23 women's events. If you do the same for swimming, it's 17 men & 17 women's events. Either way, you still have more track events than swimming.

EDIT: Should have said "don't get"
Shawn91111
7/31/12 7:26:33PM

Posted by BlueSkiesBurn


Posted by Shawn91111

It really doesnt even though they compete in different events in their sport it evens out.



I don't get what you're saying.

If you have 46 track events, that's 23 men & 23 women's events. If you do the same for swimming, it's 17 men & 17 women's events. Either way, you still have more track events than swimming.

EDIT: Should have said "don't get"




Sure and you are including Javelin, shot put etc. Shot putter is not winning the 100m or the Marathon is what I believe Flashy was getting at.
BlueSkiesBurn
7/31/12 7:29:09PM

Posted by Shawn91111


Posted by BlueSkiesBurn


Posted by Shawn91111

It really doesnt even though they compete in different events in their sport it evens out.



I don't get what you're saying.

If you have 46 track events, that's 23 men & 23 women's events. If you do the same for swimming, it's 17 men & 17 women's events. Either way, you still have more track events than swimming.

EDIT: Should have said "don't get"




Sure and you are including Javelin, shot put etc. Shot putter is not winning the 100m or the Marathon is what I believe Flashy was getting at.



I know that's not his point. That's why I brought it up that EVERYTHING was swimming, no matter how different, but track events were broken up into categories.

That's an unfair comparison. If it's all swimming, then it's all track & field. Can't have it one way and not the other.
BlueSkiesBurn
7/31/12 7:31:25PM
In my opinion, there is absolutely no difference between a freestyle swimmer competing in the breaststroke and a 100m sprinter doing the 100m hurdles.

All 4 events require drastically different technique and muscles.
BlueSkiesBurn
7/31/12 7:49:47PM
Also, I would like to add that Phelps had to swim every single one of those finals AFTER having competed in the the EXACT same race earlier in the day. With the exception of the relays (I have a problem with the rules for that event), if Phelps was competing in a 400m event, then he swam 1,200m in a day. That's in addition to every other event for which he must also qualify.

While Gymnastics might not have as many events, their athletes are also not required to do the same. Maybe the overall record is up for discussion, but the fact that he also accomplished this while winning 8 medals in a single Olympics is what makes his feat a little bit more incredible. 8 of 19 came from a single year.

Again, this is just how I feel. I think it's a disservice to compare them. Phelps, by the numbers, is the greatest Olympian of all time. That's a quantitative argument that's not up for debate.

Now, Flashy's argument is more qualitative. As such, there's no real answer to this debate. It calls into question so many different variables. You could make all kinds of different arguments.

Examples:

Older Olympics didn't have modern science and technology to aid them with training, diet, nutrition, supplements, etc...

New Olympics had guys competing against OTHER dieted, supplemented, trained, etc... athletes and that made it even harder.

Gymnastics has fewer events and is harder to get 18 medals.

19 swimming medals was far more physically challenging than 18 gymnastics medals due to the overall mileage swam during the course of an Olympics

pmoney
7/31/12 7:57:11PM

Posted by BlueSkiesBurn

Also, I would like to add that Phelps had to swim every single one of those finals AFTER having competed in the the EXACT same race earlier in the day. With the exception of the relays (I have a problem with the rules for that event), if Phelps was competing in a 400m event, then he swam 1,200m in a day. That's in addition to every other event for which he must also qualify.

While Gymnastics might not have as many events, their athletes are also not required to do the same. Maybe the overall record is up for discussion, but the fact that he also accomplished this while winning 8 medals in a single Olympics is what makes his feat a little bit more incredible. 8 of 19 came from a single year.

Again, this is just how I feel. I think it's a disservice to compare them. Phelps, by the numbers, is the greatest Olympian of all time. That's a quantitative argument that's not up for debate.

Now, Flashy's argument is more qualitative. As such, there's no real answer to this debate. It calls into question so many different variables. You could make all kinds of different arguments.

Examples:

Older Olympics didn't have modern science and technology to aid them with training, diet, nutrition, supplements, etc...

New Olympics had guys competing against OTHER dieted, supplemented, trained, etc... athletes and that made it even harder.

Gymnastics has fewer events and is harder to get 18 medals.

19 swimming medals was far more physically challenging than 18 gymnastics medals due to the overall mileage swam during the course of an Olympics




Good points my man
SpiderSilva
7/31/12 9:40:10PM
So I was thinking Phelps can merry Kim Kardashian next and replace Bruce Jenner as Mr. Olympian on Keeping up with the Kardashians


BuffaloDave
7/31/12 10:13:18PM

Posted by SpiderSilva

So I was thinking Phelps can merry Kim Kardashian next and replace Bruce Jenner as Mr. Olympian on Keeping up with the Kardashians





Phelps is to white, maybe if he was at least half black he'd half a shot.
FlashyG
7/31/12 10:18:40PM

Posted by BlueSkiesBurn
Side question: How are you categorizing this stuff? You're saying swimming events, but then saying only running for Track & Field. How many Track & Field events are there? ALL track.



I consider Field events to be 100% separate from Track just as I consider Syncronized Swimming to be 100% different from Swimming, and Rhythmic gymnastics to be 100% separate from Artistic Gymnastics.

I don't however make a distinction between the 100m Butterfly and the 100m Freestyle. Yes they are different strokes but its still swimming.

A runner could compete in the 100m, 200m, 400m, 800m, 1500m, 5000m,10,000m, the 4x100m relay, the 4x400m relay and the marathon. (10 medal chances)

A Gymnast has the Individual all around, the team all around, the Vault, the Floor, the pommel horse, the rings. the parallel bars and the horizontal bar. (8 medal chances)

A swimmer has the 50m Freestyle, 100m Freestyle, 200m Freestyle, 400m Freestyle, 1500m Freestyle, 100m Backstroke, 200m Backstroke, 100m Breaststroke, 200m Breaststroke, 100m butterfly, 200m butterfly, 200m individual medley, 400m medley, 4x100m freestyle relay, 4x200 freestyle relay, 4x100 medley relay and the 10k. (17 medal chances)
FlashyG
7/31/12 10:46:26PM

Posted by BlueSkiesBurn

Also, I would like to add that Phelps had to swim every single one of those finals AFTER having competed in the the EXACT same race earlier in the day. With the exception of the relays (I have a problem with the rules for that event), if Phelps was competing in a 400m event, then he swam 1,200m in a day. That's in addition to every other event for which he must also qualify.



The Heats and the Semi's are often held on the same day, but the finals would be more than 24 hours later. He'd never race the same event 3 times in a day.


Posted by BlueSkiesBurn
While Gymnastics might not have as many events, their athletes are also not required to do the same. Maybe the overall record is up for discussion, but the fact that he also accomplished this while winning 8 medals in a single Olympics is what makes his feat a little bit more incredible. 8 of 19 came from a single year.



What I find incredible about Phelps isn't the # he's won (as I've stated multiple times I think that's directly related to how many events he has to compete in vs other athletes) Its that he's won mostly all gold until this Olympics. I'd say he was more dominant in his sport than Latynina, but I consider her overall feat much harder to accomplish and more impressive than Phelps.

Larisa Latynina won 6 of a possible 8 medals for 3 consecutive Olympics.


Posted by BlueSkiesBurn
Again, this is just how I feel. I think it's a disservice to compare them. Phelps, by the numbers, is the greatest Olympian of all time . That's a quantitative argument that's not up for debate.

Now, Flashy's argument is more qualitative. As such, there's no real answer to this debate. It calls into question so many different variables. You could make all kinds of different arguments.


I disagree with the bold. The argument as to who is the "Greatest Olympian of All-time" is not a quantitative argument, its qualitative.

Phelps is the most decorated Olympian ever, but the argument as far as who the greatest is, is completely up for debate.

Otherwise the greatest NFL football player ever would be Charles Haley, the greatest baseball player in history would be Yogi Berra, and the best hockey player ever would be Henri Richard.

Bubbles
7/31/12 11:38:06PM
Can we agree that Phelps is probably the most dominant athlete in his/her sport of all time? More dominant than Federer or Tiger or Babe Ruth or Jordan or Schumacher or Gretzky or Pele or Lance Armstrong or whoever else is the greatest in their respective sport.
prophecy033
7/31/12 11:40:24PM

Posted by Bubbles

Can we agree that Phelps is probably the most dominant athlete in his/her sport of all time? More dominant than Federer or Tiger or Babe Ruth or Jordan or Schumacher or Gretzky or Pele or Lance Armstrong or whoever else is the greatest in their respective sport.

Well.....I think Jordan is the single greatest athlete I have ever seen in any sport
FlashyG
7/31/12 11:46:37PM

Posted by Bubbles

Can we agree that Phelps is probably the most dominant athlete in his/her sport of all time? More dominant than Federer or Tiger or Babe Ruth or Jordan or Schumacher or Gretzky or Pele or Lance Armstrong or whoever else is the greatest in their respective sport.



He's the most dominant swimmer ever, but how do you compare that to other sports?

There is a fencer who won gold in his sport 6 Olympics in a row. Carl Lewis won the Long jump 4 games straight.

I'd say he's certainly as dominant as those other guys, but I don't think he's necessarily more dominant than any of them.
BuffaloDave
7/31/12 11:54:36PM
Josh, to bad you didn't get a screen shot of Phelps blowing the water out like Triple H.
BlueSkiesBurn
7/31/12 11:59:46PM

Posted by FlashyG


Posted by BlueSkiesBurn
Side question: How are you categorizing this stuff? You're saying swimming events, but then saying only running for Track & Field. How many Track & Field events are there? ALL track.



I consider Field events to be 100% separate from Track just as I consider Syncronized Swimming to be 100% different from Swimming, and Rhythmic gymnastics to be 100% separate from Artistic Gymnastics.

I don't however make a distinction between the 100m Butterfly and the 100m Freestyle. Yes they are different strokes but its still swimming.

A runner could compete in the 100m, 200m, 400m, 800m, 1500m, 5000m,10,000m, the 4x100m relay, the 4x400m relay and the marathon. (10 medal chances)

A Gymnast has the Individual all around, the team all around, the Vault, the Floor, the pommel horse, the rings. the parallel bars and the horizontal bar. (8 medal chances)

A swimmer has the 50m Freestyle, 100m Freestyle, 200m Freestyle, 400m Freestyle, 1500m Freestyle, 100m Backstroke, 200m Backstroke, 100m Breaststroke, 200m Breaststroke, 100m butterfly, 200m butterfly, 200m individual medley, 400m medley, 4x100m freestyle relay, 4x200 freestyle relay, 4x100 medley relay and the 10k. (17 medal chances)



I think it's unfair that you're excluding all the hurdling events, but counting the different strokes. So, completely using a different part of your body is the same to you, but jumping over a hurdle isn't?

I'm fine with the separation of field from track, but if you're combing all strokes, then you have to combine every event that has running.
FlashyG
8/1/12 12:09:01AM

Posted by BlueSkiesBurn

I think it's unfair that you're excluding all the hurdling events, but counting the different strokes. So, completely using a different part of your body is the same to you, but jumping over a hurdle isn't?

I'm fine with the separation of field from track, but if you're combing all strokes, then you have to combine every event that has running.



Then I'd have to include synchronized swimming in the swimming events as well since it also involves swimming? Swimming is a full body sport, you're not using a different part of your body for each stroke, you're just using the same parts of your body in a different way. If there was a swimming event where you had to avoid obstacles in the water, i'd except it from this comparison as well as it completely changes the race.

The difference I see is that to my knowledge no athletes ever compete in both the hurdles and other races (with the exception of decathletes/pentathletes) while almost every swimmer competes in multiple strokes.
BlueSkiesBurn
8/1/12 12:15:34AM

Posted by FlashyG


Posted by BlueSkiesBurn

I think it's unfair that you're excluding all the hurdling events, but counting the different strokes. So, completely using a different part of your body is the same to you, but jumping over a hurdle isn't?

I'm fine with the separation of field from track, but if you're combing all strokes, then you have to combine every event that has running.



Then I'd have to include synchronized swimming in the swimming events as well since it also involves swimming? Swimming is a full body sport, you're not using a different part of your body for each stroke, you're just using the same parts of your body in a different way. If there was a swimming event where you had to avoid obstacles in the water, i'd except it from this comparison as well as it completely changes the race.

The difference I see is that to my knowledge no athletes ever compete in both the hurdles and other races (with the exception of decathletes/pentathletes) while almost every swimmer competes in multiple strokes.



No, and I said that. Synchronized, diving, field events, etc...can all be left out.

HOWEVER, if all strokes are the same to you, then hurdling is the exact same thing as sprinting, but with jumping. No difference. So, you have to add those in.

Freestyle and breast or butterfly are VASTLY different. You HAVE to use your upperbody in the breast and butterfly. You're only allowed a certain type of kick with your legs. They force you to rely almost exclusively on your ability to use your arms to pull your body across the pool.

It's the basic equivalent of telling a sprinter he can only use a certain part of his body during a race. (i.e. he has to leave his arms at his side)
BlueSkiesBurn
8/1/12 12:22:12AM

Posted by FlashyG

The Heats and the Semi's are often held on the same day, but the finals would be more than 24 hours later. He'd never race the same event 3 times in a day.



Regardless, when you're competing in 8 events, you're going to be swimming multiple qualifiers on multiple days. It all adds up. Again, that's his choice, but that's still a feat when you add up the fact that, not only did he do it, but he crushed the competition in most of his races.



What I find incredible about Phelps isn't the # he's won (as I've stated multiple times I think that's directly related to how many events he has to compete in vs other athletes) Its that he's won mostly all gold until this Olympics. I'd say he was more dominant in his sport than Latynina, but I consider her overall feat much harder to accomplish and more impressive than Phelps.

Larisa Latynina won 6 of a possible 8 medals for 3 consecutive Olympics.



I can see what you're saying with the give and take. There's a lot of merit to the fact that she had to medal in 75% of the TOTAL gymnastics competition vs. Phelps who only had to medal in the events he chose and he had a lot more to choose from.

Serious question, do we know how good the competition was in that era for the Soviets? Or was this a case of USA Basketball? I think it's worth a look. If the Soviets were the world's dominant team and their biggest competition was against other Soviets, it doesn't look as impressive when stacked against the fact that Phelps had to race against everyone and their cousin from another country.

I don't know the answer to this question, though. I really don't. For all I know, the Soviets could have sucked back then.



I disagree with the bold. The argument as to who is the "Greatest Olympian of All-time" is not a quantitative argument, its qualitative.



In retrospect, I wish I had worded it differently. You are right. Greatest is a qualitative term.



Phelps is the most decorated Olympian ever, but the argument as far as who the greatest is, is completely up for debate.

Otherwise the greatest NFL football player ever would be Charles Haley, the greatest baseball player in history would be Yogi Berra, and the best hockey player ever would be Henri Richard.




Question? How did you land on Haley, Berra, & Richard? I've been racking my brains trying to figure out what stats you're using or if you ran off the numbers at some point prior in your life.

If you figured those numbers out on your own or created the equation, that's balls awesome. Not being sarcastic here.
FlashyG
8/1/12 12:27:25AM

Posted by BlueSkiesBurn

No, and I said that. Synchronized, diving, field events, etc...can all be left out.

HOWEVER, if all strokes are the same to you, then hurdling is the exact same thing as sprinting, but with jumping. No difference. So, you have to add those in.

Freestyle and breast or butterfly are VASTLY different. You HAVE to use your upperbody in the breast and butterfly. You're only allowed a certain type of kick with your legs. They force you to rely almost exclusively on your ability to use your arms to pull your body across the pool.

It's the basic equivalent of telling a sprinter he can only use a certain part of his body during a race. (i.e. he has to leave his arms at his side)



I personally think there is a FAR bigger difference between hurdles and sprinting than there is between the breast stroke and the butterfly.

There are tons of swimmers who take part in more than one stroke and I can't think of a single hurdler who also competes in the 100, 200 or 400m races.

If there was an event where a sprinter had to run with his arms by his/her sides I would gladly include it in the running races and I'd still exclude the hurdles.

The complete lunacy to that idea is pretty much how I feel about giving medals out for doing different strokes in a swimming pool.

FlashyG
8/1/12 12:36:19AM

Posted by BlueSkiesBurn

Regardless, when you're competing in 8 events, you're going to be swimming multiple qualifiers on multiple days. It all adds up. Again, that's his choice, but that's still a feat when you add up the fact that, not only did he do it, but he crushed the competition in most of his races.




Its not like swimmers are alone in having to qualify for their respective finals though, sprinters have heats, semi's and finals in the exact same format as swimmers. Gymnasts also have more than one performance as well, although I'm admittedly less knowledgeable when it comes to gymnastics as I've never really paid much attention to it at the games.


Posted by BlueSkiesBurn
I can see what you're saying with the give and take. There's a lot of merit to the fact that she had to medal in 75% of the TOTAL gymnastics competition vs. Phelps who only had to medal in the events he chose and he had a lot more to choose from.

Serious question, do we know how good the competition was in that era for the Soviets? Or was this a case of USA Basketball? I think it's worth a look. If the Soviets were the world's dominant team and their biggest competition was against other Soviets, it doesn't look as impressive when stacked against the fact that Phelps had to race against everyone and their cousin from another country.

I don't know the answer to this question, though. I really don't. For all I know, the Soviets could have sucked back then.



I honestly have no clue how good the soviets were at that point or what their competition was like. I was really just using her as an example as she was the 2nd most decorated Olympic Athlete ever. I personally am most impressed with Athletes like Carl Lewis who won medals in completely separate sports at the same games, and dominated his events over 4 different Olympics.


Posted by BlueSkiesBurn
Question? How did you land on Haley, Berra, & Richard? I've been racking my brains trying to figure out what stats you're using or if you ran off the numbers at some point prior in your life.

If you figured those numbers out on your own or created the equation, that's balls awesome. Not being sarcastic here.



I wish I could say I did a lot of research to come up with that, but I just picked the most decorated athletes in their respective sports. Haley has the most superbowl rings (as a player), Berra the most world series titles and Richard the most Stanley Cups.

That argument isn't really the best comparison though as those are team championships and only 5 of Phelps medals were team accomplishments. it was more to show the difference between best and most decorated.
infestructure
8/1/12 1:10:56AM

Posted by prophecy033


Posted by Bubbles

Can we agree that Phelps is probably the most dominant athlete in his/her sport of all time? More dominant than Federer or Tiger or Babe Ruth or Jordan or Schumacher or Gretzky or Pele or Lance Armstrong or whoever else is the greatest in their respective sport.

Well.....I think Jordan is the single greatest athlete I have ever seen in any sport



Haha JORDAN!! Good call

Anyone know if there are any olympians with medals in more than one sport?>
Not just sprint and hurdles. But two different sports, like Judo and diving?

FlashyG
8/1/12 1:37:30AM
There have been a few.

Carl Lewis won the Long Jump, the 100 and the 200m in multiple games,
Eddie Egan won golds in both boxing and the bobsleigh.
Jacob Tullin Thams won silver in sailing and gold in Ski Jumping
Christa Luding won a silver in cycling and 2 golds a silver and a bronze in speed skating.
Clara Hughes won 2 bronze medals in cycling, and a gold, a silver and 2 bronze in speed skating.
Morris Kirksey (athletics and rugby)
Edwin Flack (athletics and tennis)
Otto Herschmann (swimming and fencing)
Carl Schuhmann (gymnastics and wrestling)
Rebecca Romero (cycling and rowing)
Roswitha Krause (swimming and handball)

There's probably more but that's all I found in my wikipedia search.
BlueSkiesBurn
8/1/12 1:38:11AM

Posted by FlashyG

I personally think there is a FAR bigger difference between hurdles and sprinting than there is between the breast stroke and the butterfly.

There are tons of swimmers who take part in more than one stroke and I can't think of a single hurdler who also competes in the 100, 200 or 400m races.

If there was an event where a sprinter had to run with his arms by his/her sides I would gladly include it in the running races and I'd still exclude the hurdles.

The complete lunacy to that idea is pretty much how I feel about giving medals out for doing different strokes in a swimming pool.




I can understand why you personally feel that way, but as a former swimmer, let me just say that butterfly and freestyle are WAY different. Totally different muscles, totally different physics, totally different approaches. It's like saying that Aussie Rules Football and Rugby are the same. They are, but they're really not.

BlueSkiesBurn
8/1/12 1:46:18AM

Posted by FlashyG


Its not like swimmers are alone in having to qualify for their respective finals though, sprinters have heats, semi's and finals in the exact same format as swimmers. Gymnasts also have more than one performance as well, although I'm admittedly less knowledgeable when it comes to gymnastics as I've never really paid much attention to it at the games.



Yeah, track and swimming have the same thing going for them, I was more saying it because she was a gymnast. They do have multiple routines, but the totality of swimming heats, I think, is more physically demanding than the structured system of gymnastics. It's usually done in halves and everyone competes at once all against one another.

Swims are broken up over several heats. Honestly, the amount of energy expended in a gymnastics event varies from event to event. Some are physically demanding and others are not as demanding.

I'm not sure if this is making sense, but I hope it does. If gymnastics had the same basic idea of heats by competition, I'd argue maybe. They're structured differently, though.



I honestly have no clue how good the soviets were at that point or what their competition was like. I was really just using her as an example as she was the 2nd most decorated Olympic Athlete ever. I personally am most impressed with Athletes like Carl Lewis who won medals in completely separate sports at the same games, and dominated his events over 4 different Olympics.


Gotcha, I thought it was Phelps, then her, and then 3rd place was way further back at like 9 or 12. I assumed you were focusing specifically on her.



I wish I could say I did a lot of research to come up with that, but I just picked the most decorated athletes in their respective sports. Haley has the most superbowl rings (as a player), Berra the most world series titles and Richard the most Stanley Cups.

That argument isn't really the best comparison though as those are team championships and only 5 of Phelps medals were team accomplishments. it was more to show the difference between best and most decorated.



Ah, totally didn't think of that, haha.
FlashyG
8/1/12 1:47:03AM

Posted by BlueSkiesBurn


Posted by FlashyG

I personally think there is a FAR bigger difference between hurdles and sprinting than there is between the breast stroke and the butterfly.

There are tons of swimmers who take part in more than one stroke and I can't think of a single hurdler who also competes in the 100, 200 or 400m races.

If there was an event where a sprinter had to run with his arms by his/her sides I would gladly include it in the running races and I'd still exclude the hurdles.

The complete lunacy to that idea is pretty much how I feel about giving medals out for doing different strokes in a swimming pool.




I can understand why you personally feel that way, but as a former swimmer, let me just say that butterfly and freestyle are WAY different. Totally different muscles, totally different physics, totally different approaches. It's like saying that Aussie Rules Football and Rugby are the same. They are, but they're really not.




I may have sucked at them but I competed in the freestyle and the back-stroke in high-school...I found I sucked equally at both, and the same swimmers normally won at every meet in every stroke.

I also sucked at the 100 and 200m yet I couldn't clear a single hurdle if you gave me and endless # of attempts.

Edit- Another thing working against Phelps as the "greatest" Olympian ever is that he is currently only 3rd if you don't count team medals.
Boo_Radley21
8/1/12 1:49:11AM
Enjoy it while it lasts, Americans...
Once that water freezes over the ball is in our court
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