Petition: Knees to the head of a downed opponent

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POLL: Knees to the head of a downed opponent
For 70% (129)
Against 30% (54)
Mastodon2
4/24/07 4:15:21PM

Posted by MattHughesFan

I never liked knees to the head or foot stomps and elbows for that matter. I just think their cheep ways to win and take no skill.



Have you ever been in a fight, practised or sparred trying to use these skills?

You cant say these require no skill, otherwise every other fight would have been won with a kick to the head.
MattHughesFan
4/24/07 4:23:49PM
I still think their cheep, winning by cutting some one open with two or three elbows is a cheep way out of the fight. Same with foot stomps, instead of havening to go around someone's guard and try to GnP out a victory or attempt a sub u stand over them attempting to stomp their head in once again i think that's a cheap way to win. Knees i'm on the fence with but as of now I'd have to say i don't like them.
Mastodon2
4/24/07 4:25:20PM
Ok I think you should watch some more Pride, then you will see that knees and kicks are just another tool, they are by no means an easy option to winning fights that make other techniques like subs or GNP not worth trying for.
Leland
4/25/07 2:31:42PM
knees are definitely a huge part of MMA. Without knees, it wouldn't be the same. I think flying knees are a great way to knock someone out
MattHughesFan
4/25/07 3:55:19PM
When i say knees and kicks i mean to the head of a grounded opponent. i'm all for the flying knee KO
JunCTion
4/25/07 8:19:19PM

Posted by MattHughesFan


Posted by Kisame


Posted by MattHughesFan

I never liked knees to the head or foot stomps and elbows for that matter. I just think their cheep ways to win and take no skill.



Fine while we are at it lets stop punching while in mount to since its too hard to defend against while on back. Oh yeah and submissioins as well because the fighter who taps is still fine afterward.



When did submissions come in to play? anyway your talking about to different things here. Punches while in mount are ok because it frequently takes many of them to end a fight and can be defended more then say knees to the head and also the one on their back still has the opportunity to grab a limb and lock in a sub. However when some1 gets north/south it's very hard to stop those knees coming in and gives the one on offense an easy way to the end the fight which in my eyes is cheep. on the subject of elbows it only takes two or three well placed elbows to open a cut and cause a doctor stoppage where as it takes a lot of punches being rained down to score a tko so doctor stoppages due to elbow are also cheap in my mind. but i guess you think submissions and punches are along the same lines.



dude. are you saying that if you were in a fight and the guy was defending your every punch, kick or sub attempt and all of a sudden you have a clean opening for a couple of elbows, you wouldnt use them to win the fight?

and like the other dude up there said. no knees or elbows make it so easy for a wrestler to lay and pray after getting points from takedowns and just coast to a win.

i want excitement. not just KOs. standing up and on the ground.
if you dont want to get kneed then defend getting caught in that position. same with elbows.
kickboxers have to defend the takedown
wrestlers have to defend getting put on their back,
grapplers have to defend against strikes,
crocop has to defend against the LHK.
so fighters should learn to defend against knees to the head & elbows (i dont want soccer kicks).

its "no holds barred" not some holds barred that might hurt the other guy or open up a cheap cut".
(M)MA, not some of this MA & some of that MA or i can use all of my skills, but you cant use all of yours cause i might get hurt.
MethodMan
4/27/07 5:05:15AM
Some orgs allow head butts to, should they be brought in as well. The first few UFC where exciting but quite messy, even the BJJ on show was basic arm bars and colar chokes using the Gi. The rules that have been adopted so far have allowed MMA to flurish into a highly technical art. I love elbows and train them a lot and it does require preperation and training to pull them off well. That said any fight finished with a cut from one or two elbows always seems like unfinished buisness. As for Lay and Pray why not adopted another Pride rule which has done more to limit this type of activity, by giving yellow cards and standing fighters back up more quickly.
JunCTion
4/29/07 1:32:26AM

Posted by MethodMan

Some orgs allow head butts to, should they be brought in as well. The first few UFC where exciting but quite messy, even the BJJ on show was basic arm bars and colar chokes using the Gi. The rules that have been adopted so far have allowed MMA to flurish into a highly technical art. I love elbows and train them a lot and it does require preperation and training to pull them off well. That said any fight finished with a cut from one or two elbows always seems like unfinished buisness. As for Lay and Pray why not adopted another Pride rule which has done more to limit this type of activity, by giving yellow cards and standing fighters back up more quickly.



dude. i couldnt tell if the headbutt comment was serious or sarcasm.
headbutts are cool for shock value but kinda dumb imo. in wandys first mma fight he was flat out kicking the dudes ass and landed about 7 or 8 clean headbutts and cut himself open and the ref stopped the fight and he lost.
MethodMan
5/1/07 4:47:54AM
It was serious sarcasm, my point is where do you draw the line, If you take MMA back to its hayday where anything goes you get an event with lots of frantic action and lots of blood, but you will lose a lot of the technical proficiency exhibited by the modern MMA athletes. I am all for a single org doing old school type matches, but as MMA moves into the mainstream both knees and elbows to downed opponents will inevitable be lost.
JunCTion
5/4/07 12:39:55AM

Posted by MethodMan

It was serious sarcasm, my point is where do you draw the line, If you take MMA back to its hayday where anything goes you get an event with lots of frantic action and lots of blood, but you will lose a lot of the technical proficiency exhibited by the modern MMA athletes. I am all for a single org doing old school type matches, but as MMA moves into the mainstream both knees and elbows to downed opponents will inevitable be lost.



were only talking about knees to the head of a downed opponent. i dont think thats gonna take us back to the stone age. were not asking to bring back head butts and croch punches. and how much blood has anybody seen come from a knee to the head as opposed to a broken nose from a punch or a high kick. i dont think a knee to the head is gonna scare away a new fan any more than all the other strikes allowed. a potential newby is gonna either like mma or not based on all thgey see in the coarse of a fight.
MethodMan
5/4/07 9:07:58AM
Well with UFC and Pride now under joint ownership, I think Pride will lose the knees and UFC the elbow stikes to a downed opponent, This is inevitable, the fanbase for fighting sports/extreme sports has been filled and these events have sucessful PPV and fill out stadiums now, however to get shown on mainstream TV and attract bigger sponsers it will be necessary to tone-down the blood/serious concussions that can occur from elbow and knee strikes to a downed opponent. Like I said I love elbows and I am sure some orgs for example Jungle fight, Cage rage, Bodog will still keep elbow, knees or both to a grounded opponent.
JunCTion
5/5/07 12:48:24AM

Posted by MethodMan

Well with UFC and Pride now under joint ownership, I think Pride will lose the knees and UFC the elbow stikes to a downed opponent, This is inevitable, the fanbase for fighting sports/extreme sports has been filled and these events have sucessful PPV and fill out stadiums now, however to get shown on mainstream TV and attract bigger sponsers it will be necessary to tone-down the blood/serious concussions that can occur from elbow and knee strikes to a downed opponent. Like I said I love elbows and I am sure some orgs for example Jungle fight, Cage rage, Bodog will still keep elbow, knees or both to a grounded opponent.



dude. pride already has taken on ufc rules including elbows. and mma is already mainstream (ufc on spike and soon HBO/bodohg on ion/ifl on fx sports and CW/pride on fx sports etc.) picks up big sponsers every day and is only getting better.

a nasty cut can heal fast. what about broken arms from armbars, torn ligaments from knee bars and ankle locks, broken noses from strikes, concussions from high kicks, karos missing tooth from diegos standing knee. dude MMA is violent and theres a ton of blood lost from just striking and kickboxing. earlier you said where do you draw the line - If you take MMA back to its hayday where anything goes you get an event with lots of frantic action and lots of blood, but you will lose a lot of the technical proficiency exhibited by the modern MMA athletes. well i say where do you draw the line when it comes to taking away a fighters ability to fight? how much do you want to delete to go mainstream. should we have them where boxing gloves and head gear so there is no blood at all
Ultimate_fighter
5/7/07 8:05:29PM
more knees to the head the better.... agreed?
JunCTion
5/7/07 8:43:54PM

Posted by Ultimate_fighter

more knees to the head the better.... agreed?



i love knees and elbows. just not on me.
MethodMan
5/8/07 5:00:56AM
I dont know, IMO the Orgs that go more mainstream will adopt IFL type rules, not saying that is good or bad just saying I am sure it will eventually happen.
JimiMak
5/12/07 6:28:54PM
First, I don't think elbows will go I think knees will come back.

Mainly, WHY ARE KNEES TO A GROUNDED OPPONENT DIFFERENT FROM KNEES TO A STANDING OPPONENT?
I know the main argument is positioning/brutality. I think a.silvas knees to franklin were just a "brutal" but it's fighting. It takes just as much technicality and positioning as standing. If you want to argue that it's "not talent" I could argue positioning all day. We have never seen the brutality from knees that we hve from things like standing high kicks and punches. Fact is elbows get cheap victories.... knees get clean ko's. I don't mind a decision when a good fight goes the distance, but I hate when fighter see points as the way to the W. I think soccer kicks are the same.
hughesfan1
5/19/07 6:47:32PM
NO NO NO knees to the head of a downed opponent nor soccer kicks are a good idea they should be banned from all mma programs ! it doesn't involve any skill to do those moves and someone very well could end up dead ! as for the stupid 30 degee rule that's too complicated and would confuse too many people ! if you don't like wretler decisions then petition for refs to stand fighters up sooner and quit aiming for someone to die otherwisw we're never gonna get mma shows sanctioned in other states. also the octagon cage is much moer exciting than the boxing ring on pride!
JunCTion
5/19/07 9:42:02PM

Posted by hughesfan1

NO NO NO knees to the head of a downed opponent nor soccer kicks are a good idea they should be banned from all mma programs ! it doesn't involve any skill to do those moves and someone very well could end up dead ! as for the stupid 30 degee rule that's too complicated and would confuse too many people ! if you don't like wretler decisions then petition for refs to stand fighters up sooner and quit aiming for someone to die otherwisw we're never gonna get mma shows sanctioned in other states. also the octagon cage is much moer exciting than the boxing ring on pride!



can you explain to me,
how long mma has been around
how long knees to the head have been around
and
how many fighters have died

what are you talking about?
hughesfan1
5/20/07 5:33:05PM
knees are alowed in places like pride (in the ring) not in the cage like ufc! can you just imagine for a minute if someone got a weaker opponent trapped against the fence on the ground with nowhere to go , unlike in the ring where they can get seperation. like i said before knees or soccer kicks to a downed opponent does not involve any skill so it's not in the best interest of the SPORT. if we want more live mma events in more places to be sanctioned we have to stop aiming for more brutality and embrace the rules the way they are in ufc now , IF IT AIN'T BROKE DON'T FIX IT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
JunCTion
5/20/07 11:36:42PM
dude, i was being sarcastic.

knees will knock a dude out, maybe give him a concussion.
striking causes damage, cut forheads, cut eyebrows, broken noses, cut ears, all of which cause a lot more bloodshed then knees.
submissions cause torn ligaments and sometimes broken bones.
chokes cause a lack of oxygen to the brain - ask a doctor if thats safe.
knees are no more brutal from a bloodloss or injury standpoint than any other strike

mma is violent

and dude, we are seeing tons and tons of mma on tv, cable & ppv

spike, fox, ion, cw - ufc, pride, ifl, bodog - ALL FREE

knees are not going to destroy mma.

and i dont like soccer kicks either.
hughesfan1
5/20/07 11:52:06PM
o.k. you have your points and i have mine regardless of how much mma is on tv i would like to see a live ufc and i live in the southeast usa , the only way thats gonna happen is for states in my region to sanction mma around here. i don't see how you can be against soccer kicks and for knees to a downed opponent
JunCTion
5/21/07 9:09:35PM
your points are valid, especially if your state(s) is trying to get sanctioned. i understand that certain people woul;d associate knees with brutality.

as for soccer kicks.
i guess i see knees as slow blunt force that could knock me out or give me a concussion
your shin/foot area is much, much harder an for lack of a better word, sharper and comes at you with a lot more velocity. that could rupture my ear drum, break my teeth, shatter my eye socket, maybe even detach my nose

much more brutal imo.
hughesfan1
5/21/07 9:15:33PM
appreciate your understanding and you have very valid points as well
JunCTion
5/21/07 9:34:23PM
to be honest, i liked soccer kicks at first until i saw wandy use them on saku. he didnt even see them comming and even if he did, how can your hand/arm block such a furocious strike. i play and coach soccer and i can easily kick or drop kick a ball 80-90 yards. just imagine that amount of muscle comming at your head.
i do believe that if a fighter is down or his opponent is on him he has some sence that a knee could be comming and figure out some way to defend it, or not, or at least scramble or flatten out to avoid some of the force
i also believe that a striker/kickboxer needs his tools (knees) when being outclassed by a wrestler/GnP.
kickboxer and muay thai fighters need all their skills. everyone else gets to use all their skills.
hughesfan1
5/21/07 9:38:48PM
more good points . I'm way more against soccer kicks and really only worried about knees b/c of the sanctioning.
JunCTion
5/21/07 10:09:53PM
yeah, when this thread was first posted i based my opinion on the bloodiness of the strike. knees - no blood, soccer kicks - potential for blood, elbows - lots of blood. so my thought was that id much rather get hit with a knee that kicked or punched in the nose or eye and bleed all over (which is also why id rather get one of CCs high kicks, or should i say gonzagas high kick).

and if i look at it from my wifes point of view - if she sees some knees to the head shes like "ouch that must really hurt" but if she sees the fighters punching the hell out of eachother and theres blood every where she leaves the room and says how violent and brutal and stupid the sport is. shed much rather see 2 guys wrestling or grappling (that sounds gross) than see any punches thrown

but in the end when it all comes down to sanctioning, most of those people involved dont know anything, so im all for doing whatever it takes to get mma sanctioned in all states
sarahburd
2/22/09 3:32:41AM
knees to the head of a dowened opponent should never be allowed... if anyone can tell me a martial art that they teach knees to the head as a technique then i will change my vote gladly otherwise it is a risk fighters do not need to be put at, its the same as stomping really, neither are martial arts techniques that take years of practice to perfect, elbows to the head on the ground are different as you cant get nearly as much momentum and as much as they look brutal no one has every been knocked cold in the ufc by an elbowon the ground, yes they cut but thats about it!
mentalcase
2/22/09 4:34:43AM

Posted by hughesfan1

NO NO NO knees to the head of a downed opponent nor soccer kicks are a good idea they should be banned from all mma programs ! it doesn't involve any skill to do those moves and someone very well could end up dead ! as for the stupid 30 degee rule that's too complicated and would confuse too many people ! if you don't like wretler decisions then petition for refs to stand fighters up sooner and quit aiming for someone to die otherwisw we're never gonna get mma shows sanctioned in other states. also the octagon cage is much moer exciting than the boxing ring on pride!



what thought process goes though someones head when they think a particular technique like stomping the soccer kicks and knees to the head takes no skill

its a striking technique like any thing else, and two of the most skilled fighters in the world are famous for how good they are at it, shogun , wandy

as for cage vs ring both have their pros and cons

one problem with no knees or kicks to the head of a down opponent favors wrestles way to much and so dose the cage

i love mma and i appreciate watching great striking shogun style soccer kicks and great submission technique alot more then a strong wrestle that can take a more skilled opponent down and simple neutralise them while maintaining top control but not trying to finish the fight in this case pride was better

fightes like


Gray Maynard
Clay Guida
Frankie Edgar
Tyson Griffin
Sean Sherk
State_Champ
2/22/09 9:55:12AM
No knees to the head of a downed opponent! I want this sport to grow and therefore it must be at least somewhat general-public-friendly.
Knees to a downed opponent are too dangerous!
AchillesHeel
2/22/09 10:14:21AM
Zombie thread!!!



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