Petition: Knees to the head of a downed opponent

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POLL: Knees to the head of a downed opponent
For 70% (129)
Against 30% (54)
richieb19
3/27/07 2:50:26PM
This has been a subject I've felt strongly about for a long time now, and with the Fertittas aquiring PRIDE FC it has become more of an issue than ever, as their will now be a unified ruleset of MMA instilled for both organizations. Originally this was brought up because of the UFC's wrestler filled roster using takedowns as a means of winning, and the use of the cage as an amplifier for this often time makes for dull matches. Although it is seemingly obvious that knees to the head of a downed person can potentially cause serious injury (or death), a simple rule such as allowing only knees from a greater angle than ~30 degrees (to the side of the head) could incredibly reduce this risk and allow fighters to have a tool to defend against this nagging "wrestlers decision" problem.

Please vote and sign this peition. I encourage you all to copy and paste this very thread to other major MMA forums and ask for it to be stickied. If we all speak up we can make a difference.

Other forums carrying this petition:
[url]www.fwappedinstead.com[/url]
[url]www.mmaplayground.com[/url]
[url]www.otrefugees.com[/url]
[url]www.sherdog.net[/url]



*note: please tell me which forums you are copying this to so I can put it on this page as to avoid double. Please limit yourself to posting in this thread (aside from your signature) unless it is a suggestion.
Mayo
3/27/07 3:06:50PM
I never viewed knees to the head as a strategic weapon, rather a barbaricly leathal weapon. Can you elaborate more on this "wrestlers decision problem"? How will knees to the head alleviate this problem? How will a 30 degree angle be enforced/measured? Can you give me a scenerio for all of this?
richieb19
3/27/07 3:11:09PM
Allowing the fighter with the weaker wreslting abilities a chance to attack from the quarter position instead of inevitably be taken down...

As far as how it will be enforcrd, I could only assume in the same manner that downward elbows are not permitted.

Simply put it gives the strikers a chance to keep the fight standing against strong takedown artists
richieb19
3/27/07 4:35:50PM
This petition has been stickied on here, sherdog and fwapped so far... I need some posters from bloodyknux and the underground to come forward please...
redmist
3/27/07 7:57:54PM
I completely agree. soccer kicks i'm against, but knees are an integral part of mma. I have heard Dana say he was working on getting them sanctioned.

p.s elbows i could live without also, but that's another story
modogg
3/27/07 10:54:01PM
i think redmist hit's on the idea good. the key is that Dana and the rest of the top guys need to go to these upper echelon meetings with sanctioning committees and everythihng and needs to show that the sport has evolved from the original selling of the "no rules" fighting. What they did make sense where they stripped it down and made it most appealiing for te sanctioning bodies so they can grow momentum. As people see MMA more adding in rules like the knees can be much easier to do, but to put it in right away would kill their move to have MMA sanctioned in more states. Once they lock in New York and build a real good relationship there they can expand these but putting it in now would hinder the growth of the sport (not among fans but with governing bodies), i think.
roman
3/27/07 11:04:33PM
I hate it when people say it's not a honorable move. When the head is there of course you would knee it and it makes a better fight. So stop being a bunch of pussies and get on board.
roman
3/27/07 11:05:44PM
Nice avatar modogg..... I love the wilboyz
mkiv9secsupra
3/28/07 2:52:48AM

Posted by Mayo

Can you elaborate more on this "wrestlers decision problem"?



when wrestlers take a guy down and control them on the ground and NEVER do anything significant. It is boring....to win by not allowing your opponent to do anything is the bitch way out (sorry matt hughes)...
Sam_Rothstein
3/28/07 3:50:22AM
can we bring back head butts please?
mkiv9secsupra
3/28/07 3:55:24AM

Posted by Sam_Rothstein

can we bring back head butts please?



well hell....in that case bring back pinching, biting, and hair pulling....
randyleprechaun
3/28/07 5:58:15AM

Posted by redmist

I completely agree. soccer kicks i'm against, but knees are an integral part of mma. I have heard Dana say he was working on getting them sanctioned.

p.s elbows i could live without also, but that's another story



Dana says here that if he could change one rule in the sport, he would allow knees to the head on the ground.

Yet back at the beginning of 2005, Dana and other Zuffa employees argued against allowing knees to the head on the ground in front of the California State Athletic Commission.

danas interview

Theres alot of text so here it is!

'DrWu says If you could change one thing about the rules of fighting in the octagon, what would it be and why?

DanaWhite says diwu, i would add knees to the head '
tomp6581
3/28/07 9:52:07AM
A knee to the head on the floor should be allowed in UFC, along with stomps and soccer kicks.....past pride events have proven that knees on the floor, soccer kicks and stomps are not lethal at all.....if a fighter is facing a superior striker in UFC and he decides to go for the takedown, he doesn’t have to worry about knees or soccer kicks if his opponent if he has a good sprawl.....which in my opinion gives the upper hand to the fighter who decides to grapple.....instead of strikers having to just defend a takedown.....they could mount a very effective attack after a sprawl.....which would give the grappler/ground n pounder something else to think about.....resulting in more interesting fights.


warglory
3/28/07 11:28:11AM

Posted by tomp6581

A knee to the head on the floor should be allowed in UFC, along with stomps and soccer kicks.....past pride events have proven that knees on the floor, soccer kicks and stomps are not lethal at all.....if a fighter is facing a superior striker in UFC and he decides to go for the takedown, he doesn’t have to worry about knees or soccer kicks if his opponent if he has a good sprawl.....which in my opinion gives the upper hand to the fighter who decides to grapple.....instead of strikers having to just defend a takedown.....they could mount a very effective attack after a sprawl.....which would give the grappler/ground n pounder something else to think about.....resulting in more interesting fights.





This hasnt proven anything. Just because no one has been killed by one of these moves does mean the potential hazard is not there. As long as there is a realistic situation involving serious maiming or death, a move SHOULD NOT be allowed. Stomping someone on the head, and even worse, soccer kicks are a good way to kill someone. If a fighter lands a well placed kick on a defenseless downed opponent (i.e. unconcious) before the ref can stop the aggressor, this could have potential to be fatal.

We all have to be careful not to glorify this sport into a bloodsport. MMA is not and should be not a "pure fight" as so many fans claim it should be. MMA is a sanctioned sport with guidelines, and should continue to be so with certain rules designed to prevent serious injury. Does the excitement factor go up when someone is kicked in the head? Sure, but so don't headbutts and blood splurting from the victim's forehead as a result.

Excitement SHOULD NOT overshadow fighter safety...end of story.
Trapt1nw0nder
3/28/07 11:36:57AM
What Petition?
Trapt1nw0nder
3/28/07 11:50:42AM

Posted by warglory

This hasnt proven anything. Just because no one has been killed by one of these moves does mean the potential hazard is not there. As long as there is a realistic situation involving serious maiming or death, a move SHOULD NOT be allowed. Stomping someone on the head, and even worse, soccer kicks are a good way to kill someone. If a fighter lands a well placed kick on a defenseless downed opponent (i.e. unconcious) before the ref can stop the aggressor, this could have potential to be fatal.

We all have to be careful not to glorify this sport into a bloodsport. MMA is not and should be not a "pure fight" as so many fans claim it should be. MMA is a sanctioned sport with guidelines, and should continue to be so with certain rules designed to prevent serious injury. Does the excitement factor go up when someone is kicked in the head? Sure, but so don't headbutts and blood splurting from the victim's forehead as a result.

Excitement SHOULD NOT overshadow fighter safety...end of story.




i agree.....its easy for someone to say "YES" to headstomps or soccer kicks when they're not the ones in there,or a close family member...a headstomp can easily break the neck of an unconcious opponent......Knees to the head is reasonable
tomp6581
3/28/07 1:49:02PM

Posted by warglory


Posted by tomp6581

A knee to the head on the floor should be allowed in UFC, along with stomps and soccer kicks.....past pride events have proven that knees on the floor, soccer kicks and stomps are not lethal at all.....if a fighter is facing a superior striker in UFC and he decides to go for the takedown, he doesn’t have to worry about knees or soccer kicks if his opponent if he has a good sprawl.....which in my opinion gives the upper hand to the fighter who decides to grapple.....instead of strikers having to just defend a takedown.....they could mount a very effective attack after a sprawl.....which would give the grappler/ground n pounder something else to think about.....resulting in more interesting fights.





....As long as there is a realistic situation involving serious maiming or death, a move SHOULD NOT be allowed. Stomping someone on the head, and even worse, soccer kicks are a good way to kill someone. .



Because Knees to the head on the ground, stomps and soccer kicks have been allowed since PRIDE 1 in '97 (10 years ago!!!) and there has been NO fatal incidents OR EVEN CLOSE TO BEING fatal incidents since then....I think it is fair to say that people (and you) think it is more dangerous than it really is......

....your argument is similar to a boxing fan saying that mma fighters using knees of ANY kind or unprotected elbows is far too dangerous and this then results in "a realistic situation involving serious maiming or death".....your response would be (I presume) very similar to mine.

You can argue all you want, the fact of the matter is that it has been allowed for 10years in pride and nothing like what you say has ever happened.

And as for your "Excitement SHOULD NOT overshadow fighter safety...end of story" comment...........I agree........but it doesnt apply to knees on the ground, stomps and soccer kicks.
warglory
3/28/07 2:04:19PM
Actually, for the first 5 PRIDE events kicks and knees to a downed opponent were not allowed. It was not until later on that they allowed them, and it did drastically change how matches ended, especially in the beginning where there were a few close calls because people did not know how to defend against them (see Wanderlei vs. Sakuraba; Sakuraba was LUCKY he did not receive more damage than he did).

My point is, is that if there is a reasonable doubt for the safety of the fighter, then I don't think it should be allowed. And yes, I know this is a combat sport so virtually any offensive maneuver can cause damage, but the rules in the UFC provide a reasonably safe atmosphere for their fighters.

Despite all of this, I do think MMA is safer than boxing.
Cobbs666
3/28/07 2:06:39PM
somewhat agree but a soccer kick is no more deadly then an unexpected crocop high kick to the skull. Can just as easily kill someone with one of them, i say if you dont like your head getting stomped, then u shouldnt fight in pride. How many people have died in brazil's vale tudo org. NOONE. One guy had a heart attack from exhaustion but no deaths from soccer kicks, a kick to the head is a kick to the head regardless and should all be legal, same with downward elbows, any more rules in this sport and they might as well just call it sports entertainment
hippysmacker
3/28/07 2:10:39PM
Signed. Completely agree
warglory
3/28/07 2:11:26PM

Posted by Cobbs666

somewhat agree but a soccer kick is no more deadly then an unexpected crocop high kick to the skull. Can just as easily kill someone with one of them, i say if you dont like your head getting stomped, then u shouldnt fight in pride. How many people have died in brazil's vale tudo org. NOONE. One guy had a heart attack from exhaustion but no deaths from soccer kicks, a kick to the head is a kick to the head regardless and should all be legal, same with downward elbows, any more rules in this sport and they might as well just call it sports entertainment



I disagree. You can't be unconcious and get nailed with a LHK, which means you can reasonably defend yourself. If a person is unconcious and they get stomped or kicked before a ref can step in, that will be problematic. PRIDE has been lucky to have some great referees, so no major injuries have occured thank God. Keep in mind, all we need is ONE fatality or serious injury, only one
Trapt1nw0nder
3/28/07 2:20:52PM

Posted by warglory


Posted by Cobbs666

somewhat agree but a soccer kick is no more deadly then an unexpected crocop high kick to the skull. Can just as easily kill someone with one of them, i say if you dont like your head getting stomped, then u shouldnt fight in pride. How many people have died in brazil's vale tudo org. NOONE. One guy had a heart attack from exhaustion but no deaths from soccer kicks, a kick to the head is a kick to the head regardless and should all be legal, same with downward elbows, any more rules in this sport and they might as well just call it sports entertainment



I disagree. You can't be unconcious and get nailed with a LHK, which means you can reasonably defend yourself. If a person is unconcious and they get stomped or kicked before a ref can step in, that will be problematic. PRIDE has been lucky to have some great referees, so no major injuries have occured thank God. Keep in mind, all we need is ONE fatality or serious injury, only one

mkiv9secsupra
3/28/07 2:43:36PM

Posted by Trapt1nw0nder


Posted by warglory

I disagree. You can't be unconcious and get nailed with a LHK, which means you can reasonably defend yourself. If a person is unconcious and they get stomped or kicked before a ref can step in, that will be problematic. PRIDE has been lucky to have some great referees, so no major injuries have occured thank God. Keep in mind, all we need is ONE fatality or serious injury, only one




I disagree with you....the same can be said with a barrage of punches while the fighter is out cold. like liddell/babalu 1. Babalu got kicked in the head and his head bounced off the mat...a split second later liddell gave him the left haymaker. the legs certainly can be stronger but a flurry can be just as devastaing....another example...Bob Sapp/Tamura.....he was being pummeled to hell and the refs couldnt even get him off of tamura....
warglory
3/28/07 2:56:38PM
Punches are definitely not the same as kicks or knees. Punches to a grounded opponent are actually not as dangerous as the brain is actually less joggled than when they are standing, so the most they suffer is fractured eye sockets, cuts and bruises. However, a soccer kick to the head can easily cause nerve damage to the spinal chord, a stomp can crush the throat and a knee is just a lot harder than a fist with a lot more power behind it which can cause more damage and bleeding. Knees are less worrysome to me than kicks are though.
nubby
3/28/07 4:26:38PM

Posted by warglory

Punches are definitely not the same as kicks or knees. Punches to a grounded opponent are actually not as dangerous as the brain is actually less joggled than when they are standing, so the most they suffer is fractured eye sockets, cuts and bruises. However, a soccer kick to the head can easily cause nerve damage to the spinal chord, a stomp can crush the throat and a knee is just a lot harder than a fist with a lot more power behind it which can cause more damage and bleeding. Knees are less worrysome to me than kicks are though.


Elbows to downed opponents can do the same thing an yet they are allowed. A straight punch to the face can break a nose and cause it to slide into the brain. A person can receive serious brain damage from a stroke caused by choke holds and other submissions. Honestly the sport is inherently dangerous, but it's not made siginifcantly more danagerous by having kneeing for downed opponents. If the fighters don't like the head knees they can fight in a different competition. Hell I'd be willing to bet that most fighters would welcome it.
shawneth
4/1/07 5:42:28PM

Posted by nubby


Posted by warglory

Punches are definitely not the same as kicks or knees. Punches to a grounded opponent are actually not as dangerous as the brain is actually less joggled than when they are standing, so the most they suffer is fractured eye sockets, cuts and bruises. However, a soccer kick to the head can easily cause nerve damage to the spinal chord, a stomp can crush the throat and a knee is just a lot harder than a fist with a lot more power behind it which can cause more damage and bleeding. Knees are less worrysome to me than kicks are though.


Elbows to downed opponents can do the same thing an yet they are allowed. A straight punch to the face can break a nose and cause it to slide into the brain. A person can receive serious brain damage from a stroke caused by choke holds and other submissions. Honestly the sport is inherently dangerous, but it's not made siginifcantly more danagerous by having kneeing for downed opponents. If the fighters don't like the head knees they can fight in a different competition. Hell I'd be willing to bet that most fighters would welcome it.



Great points
scoozna
4/3/07 10:02:21AM
Allow knees - I don't see them as being significantly more injurious than a knee to the head of a standing opponent in a M. Thai clinch or a jumping/flying knee to the head.

chentay2112
4/3/07 4:49:36PM
i'm all for knees to the head i think they bring another dimension to the fight i think this is something that would benefit the ufc if they were allowed to bring it in... although i am against stomps and soccer kicks
mkiv9secsupra
4/3/07 5:12:53PM

Posted by chentay2112

i'm all for knees to the head i think they bring another dimension to the fight i think this is something that would benefit the ufc if they were allowed to bring it in... although i am against stomps and soccer kicks




i would welcome stomps... why let a guy lay there and get some energy back.... but on the other hand i know that they could do serious damage..

knees i think are ok...they could possibly crack the skull if the fighter doesnt defend against it...

QUESTION: Now when we say knees to downed opponents are we saying knees when the fighter is on all fours and the opponent is on top(kinda like the one in Silva/Henderson I) or knees when a guy is in side control and knees the side of the head? or both?
chentay2112
4/3/07 5:19:29PM
IMO knees are ok as long as they dont come from above (where someone is on the floor and you drop down on them with a knee) kneeing somebody when they are down is no different from dropping elbows
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