A personal take on the Rampage issue

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Jackelope
7/16/08 12:28:34AM
(skip to the end if you want the quick run down)

This is a god damn shame if you ask me. I have almost now officially gone from a Rampage lover to a Rampage hater. I'll wait for the full story before dedicating myself one way or the other, but from the heart I shall explain something- I hope it gets read by a few members, too.

I train MMA, and it's something I put my heart and soul into. I don't know if I'll ever be good enough to be in the UFC, but it doesn't matter. I do it because it is one of the very few things in this life that fills me with passion and makes me feel alive. I respect the sport, the mental and physical challenges behind it, and the traditional respect of martial arts.

This sport is striving for acceptance. It's in the fledgling stages of said acceptance right now. I still have to lie occasionally about training for MMA (or "UFC" to the usual person) I tell them I train in boxing. Like when I had an interview for a job today. I don't want them to get the wrong idea of me, and sometimes there's simply not enough time to explain it. So instead of fighting with people left and right about how it's something other than street thugs swinging on each other in a cage I take the low road. I say "boxing" because people accept boxing as a legitimate sport filled with legitimate citizens. (Nevermind all the stupid ass lawsuits boxers have gotten into )

Or the other day, when I ran into an old friend of the family and he says he heard I'm training for "UFC". He was a martial artist about 15 years back, and he says he's only seen a couple of minutes of it. He says from what he saw it was just dudes laying on each other and beating the hell out of one another. He didn't see much technique. I got into a 30 minute argument with him about it, and I think I made some ground in convincing him about the sport. He was going to watch the fights this coming weekend.

When Rampage, a former CHAMPION of the premiere organization in MMA does something like this it really does set the sport back years. Imagine said guy I was speaking with earlier turning on the news to see this. What is he going to think besides that he was right from the beginning about it being thugs using no technique to beat the hell out of each other? Nevermind his obvious ignorance about techniques in fighting, he won't even bother to tune in.

I am in a hell of a hurry, so I wish I could elaborate more. The point is- this sport is being set back upon itself by incidents exactly like this. Rampage is a perfect example of a person who grew up thuggish, but got straight thanks to the sport. Now he's gone and flipped all that upside down on himself. Public incidents like his are going to drag the rest of the sport down, too. For the average joe putting in his hours at the gym like myself, many forum members, and many of my friends in real life- it hurts. It really, truly is an emotional let down. It's gay as hell to say it- but "Shame on you, Rampage"
wolfman
7/16/08 12:45:46AM
Good post and I understand where you are coming from. The sad thing is that athletes of all sports do stupid things like this all the time and it is virtually brushed aside by the public. Whereas, as you said, with MMA the sport is trying to gain acceptance/validity and this incident does not help the said sport. Will it have an impact on the sport as to how 'certain' people view the sport? To be honest, I also think people will use this as fuel for their arguments against MMA and the credibility of the athletes. They may also look down on the athletes and sport. Yet, in the long run I don't think this incident will cause much harm to the sport of MMA, it just doesn't do the sport any justice right now. I definitely think you bring up a good argument though. Props to you.

I was also angered at Rampage, but will give him the benefit of the doubt (we are all humans and make stupid mistakes). Some mistakes obviously worse than others'....
holt8081
7/16/08 1:32:04AM
I agree Bro
bullettdodger
7/16/08 2:21:21AM

Posted by wolfman

Good post and I understand where you are coming from. The sad thing is that athletes of all sports do stupid things like this all the time and it is virtually brushed aside by the public. Whereas, as you said, with MMA the sport is trying to gain acceptance/validity and this incident does not help the said sport. Will it have an impact on the sport as to how 'certain' people view the sport? To be honest, I also think people will use this as fuel for their arguments against MMA and the credibility of the athletes. They may also look down on the athletes and sport. Yet, in the long run I don't think this incident will cause much harm to the sport of MMA, it just doesn't do the sport any justice right now. I definitely think you bring up a good argument though. Props to you.

I was also angered at Rampage, but will give him the benefit of the doubt (we are all humans and make stupid mistakes). Some mistakes obviously worse than others'....



I just live inside Wolfman's head and wisper things in his ear to say, so i don't have to. Good post man, argueing with people's parents or people who grew up with boxing is the worst though. Where as the average person is just ignorant and hasn't taken the time to watch it, older people who buy the "blood sport" brand by the media simply won't even listen to reason.. that really burns me up from time to time (leaving out defending the ground game because it goes without saying).
fonduktoe
7/16/08 3:49:56AM
on the photo i saw i thought rampage was being arrested at gunpoint in full octagon gear w/ chain and all until i realized it was a life-sized portrait of himself on the side of his truck
pretty lavish buddy
telnights
7/16/08 7:52:54AM
I agree but same time I will wait to see how things turn out before passing judgment on Rampage. But I think no good will come of this as in the end this will do nothing but hurt the sport of MMA no matter what the reasons for Rampages actions.
Jackelope
7/16/08 8:11:28AM

Posted by telnights

I agree but same time I will wait to see how things turn out before passing judgment on Rampage. But I think no good will come of this as in the end this will do nothing but hurt the sport of MMA no matter what the reasons for Rampages actions.



True, and I also await the reasoning behind the actions. Honestly, though.. is there any explanation that would be reasonable? I'm just glad he didn't kill anybody walking down the sidewalk or something crazy like that.
scoozna
7/16/08 10:20:49AM
Good post - I believe you're saying what need to be said. He's innocent until proven guilty, granted, but it doesn't look good.

It's a bit of a catch-22. The sport is filled with violence, and you will not be able to rationalize that away with certain people. I'd say, brace yourself for a life of having to argue with some, and adjust your story with others (like you did for the interview). For those that "get it" you can be straight with them.
emfleek
7/16/08 11:01:22AM
There will always be haters, no matter what.

Personally, I don't think this will have a negative impact on the sport. It'll stay in the news for a few days, sure, but that's about it.

As for Rampage...he made a mistake. If I weren't forgiven for any of the mistakes I"ve made in the past, I'd have no friends or family to love or to love me.
pv3Hpv3p
7/16/08 11:08:20AM
I think it happens in every sport... Especially once the general talent pool grows, then there are just going to be more incidents like this, it's jsut statistics... I can't count on both hands how many of my friends have gotten DUI's... It's nothing to be proud of, but it's a mistake most of them have learned from....

I can understand that people are dissappointed, but after all these fighters are still people and are still going to make mistakes... No matter what pedastool you put them on, they are not infallable... I'm not making any excuses for Rampage, he f'd up and I'm sure he knows it...

I would imagine the regular guy that trains his ass off can still be a fan of Rampages... Marv Albert still has a job and he was arrested for "foced sodomy and sexual assult"... Riddick Bowe kidnapped his family at knifepoint... Not to mention Jay-Z stabbing some guy in a club or Snoop being charged with murder... Mel Gibson's DUI and racial slurs... Or the president of the United States and his drunk driving cocaine snorting past...

I really think this is something that is truley going to suck for Page, but is also something that the American populus is so accustomed to that the sport will not really be effected

emfleek
7/16/08 11:14:06AM

Posted by pv3Hpv3p

I think it happens in every sport... Especially once the general talent pool grows, then there are just going to be more incidents like this, it's jsut statistics... I can't count on both hands how many of my friends have gotten DUI's... It's nothing to be proud of, but it's a mistake most of them have learned from....

I can understand that people are dissappointed, but after all these fighters are still people and are still going to make mistakes... No matter what pedastool you put them on, they are not infallable... I'm not making any excuses for Rampage, he f'd up and I'm sure he knows it...

I would imagine the regular guy that trains his ass off can still be a fan of Rampages... Marv Albert still has a job and he was arrested for "foced sodomy and sexual assult"... Riddick Bowe kidnapped his family at knifepoint... Not to mention Jay-Z stabbing some guy in a club or Snoop being charged with murder... Mel Gibson's DUI and racial slurs... Or the president of the United States and his drunk driving cocaine snorting past...

I really think this is something that is truley going to suck for Page, but is also something that the American populus is so accustomed to that the sport will not really be effected




Dead. On.

Good post.

jimmypockets
7/16/08 11:16:19AM
I just wonder what Charles "Krazy Horse" Bennett is thinking.  Krazy Horse will have to step up his game now.  I am gonna expect at least 2 hit and runs from him along with some crack possesion and maybe a kidnapping charge.  You may have won the battle for craziest fighter this week but I believe Charles Bennett could have done it better. ha ha ha
treyhodge
7/16/08 11:19:21AM
"on the photo i saw i thought rampage was being arrested at gunpoint in full octagon gear w/ chain and all until i realized it was a life-sized portrait of himself on the side of his truck
pretty lavish buddy"

The truck was a gift for Rampage after coaching on TUF. He didn't actually buy a truck and have that put on.

The article I read said that he was "Medically Unfit" for incarceration and was in the hospital recovering. Dana posted his bail for him. I think Dana flying out there and posting his bail shows that he will most likely stick by him through this.

Medically unfit usually means injured, severly dehydrated or high (never means drunk).

I am giving him the benefit of the doubt, I'm guessing it was something like Heath Ledger where he took a bad combination of pills and then flipped out. Rampage could be taking supplements mixed with pain medication from training and possibly mixed with something we don't know about (anti-depressant, sleep aid, etc...). I'm not implying that he is taking anti-depressants from losing his belt, that's tasteless and classless.

That's my theory. And yes, it's bad for the sport but I believe he made a mistake while accidentally under the influence of something and I think he will redeem himself and the sport.
emfleek
7/16/08 11:22:41AM
Like it has been said before, let's not jump to conclusions here. Wait for the facts to come out and THEN make your judgement(s).

In other words...ease up, folks.
Rush
7/16/08 11:56:50AM
Damn, Jackalope. I even tried spreading the love and still couldn't give you props.
Rush
7/16/08 12:10:28PM

Posted by pv3Hpv3p

I think it happens in every sport...




Examples? I can't think of too many sports that have athletes with as many incidents as MMA (boxing did have some bad ones). Mind you I only follow a few sports. Hockey has its share of DUI incidents, but I don't think those carry the impact (on a sport's image) as these. OJ Simpson (guilty or not, wasn't playing football at the time so the focus was on OJ the person not OJ the football player)

The main problem (hurdle) that MMA has is shedding its image as a sport composed of thugs and violent people. The violent image that people have of MMA is the main hurdle in getting it legitimized IMO.

Now, if MMA guys were being arrested for DUIs, not paying their taxes, etc. Then there is little connection to the sport. However, when MMA fighters are arrested for drunken rages, assaulting people, etc. That just underscores the violent image people have of MMA and doesn't help the cause.

Something that Hollywood antics has taught me is that the higher profile you are the harder you fall when you get into trouble.
warglory
7/16/08 12:18:06PM
See, the problem with all of this forgiveness talk is we are ignoring the penalties that should fall upon a celebrity like Rampage. If this was an average person who was plowing into cars, what would you think of him? I guarantee most would be thinking he was some nuts guy that should be put away. Am I saying they should throw the book at Rampage? Not necessarily, but if we come to find out he did the crime, he should do the time REGARDLESS what his intentions were or his state of mind was. Celebrities should not be exempt from the law, and if Jackson gets off with only a fine and some community service, I will be pissed.
emfleek
7/16/08 1:07:23PM

Posted by Rush


Posted by pv3Hpv3p

I think it happens in every sport...




Examples? I can't think of too many sports that have athletes with as many incidents as MMA (boxing did have some bad ones). Mind you I only follow a few sports. Hockey has its share of DUI incidents, but I don't think those carry the impact (on a sport's image) as these. OJ Simpson (guilty or not, wasn't playing football at the time so the focus was on OJ the person not OJ the football player)

The main problem (hurdle) that MMA has is shedding its image as a sport composed of thugs and violent people. The violent image that people have of MMA is the main hurdle in getting it legitimized IMO.

Now, if MMA guys were being arrested for DUIs, not paying their taxes, etc. Then there is little connection to the sport. However, when MMA fighters are arrested for drunken rages, assaulting people, etc. That just underscores the violent image people have of MMA and doesn't help the cause.

Something that Hollywood antics has taught me is that the higher profile you are the harder you fall when you get into trouble.



American Football has A LOT...I'd be willing to say far more than MMA.
pv3Hpv3p
7/16/08 3:06:01PM

Posted by Rush


Posted by pv3Hpv3p

I think it happens in every sport...




Examples? I can't think of too many sports that have athletes with as many incidents as MMA...



Here you go: (this was just a quick google search)

---Celebrity: Oksana Baiul
Date of Conviction: 01/12/97
Charges: DUI
Location: Connecticut
Description: Oksana was charged with driving under the influence after crashing her car and alcohol was detected on her breath.

---Celebrity: Riddick Bowe
Date of Conviction: 02/25/98
Charges: kidnapping
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
Description: Heavy weight boxer Riddick Bowe was arrested after going to his wifes house and threatening his family with a knife and then forcing them into a car. Bowe was given a sentence of 30 days after the court found him to have brain damage from boxing.

---Seattle Seahawks star Lofa Tatupu was arrested early Saturday morning for DUI after he was pulled over in a McDonald's parking lot. That order is to go!

Tatupu, a three-time Pro Bowler, allegedly failed a breathalyzer test after he blew a .155 and .158 -- nearly twice the legal limit in the state of Washington.

---Juniper, FL police found an SUV stopped (not in park, mind you) at an intersection with a man asleep at the wheel through two cycles of green lights.

That man, Mr. Tony LaRussa.

Apparently he is actually capable of a poor decision. Now, I know the grind of Spring Training can be a drag, and yesterday was certainly a dull night in sports ... but passing out at a green light, that's special. I hesitate to jump on Tony too much, knowing full well Piniella is capable of just about anything, so I'm just going to sit back and see how Cards fans react. I'm guessing they'll laud his presence of mind to keep his foot down on the brake. The guy's a genius, after all.

---Here's one from the NBA circuit, for all the basketball fans out there: Denver Nuggets forward Carmelo Anthony was busted on Interstate 25 in Colorado for suspected DUI just hours from the worst game of the entire season. For those of you who saw the game, you can't blame the guy for actually knocking back some shots to ease the pain, but what you could blame him for is drinking and then driving.


But before you start pointing fingers and blaming people, take the time to hear the details of his Monday bust. At around 4 o'clock in the morning, he was pulled over on Interstate 25 by police for weaving and for not dimming his lights. After he was pulled over, Carmelo failed the field sobriety tests officers performed on him, prompting police to charge him with a DUI. Taken into custody, he was later released to a “sober, responsible third party”.


Anthony consented to do a blood test which will better reveal whether he had been drinking or not, but the results won't be available for another two weeks. Meanwhile, Carmelo has a court date set on May 14. His attorney, Dan Recht, sent a message of apology on behalf of his client: “Carmelo apologizes to his fans, the Denver community, his teammates and the Nuggets organization for the distraction this is causing them.” And speaking of the Nuggets, they refused to make any comment about the incident.


This is not the first time Anthony has a brush in with the law. In February, he was ticketed in Colorado for driving 25mph over the legal limit. He also has an appointment in court to settle the matter which is also next month


----There's some examples... olympic champion figure skater... World Champion boxer... NFL all-pro linebacker... Multiple time manager of the year and world series champion's manager... NBA all star and highly touted draft pick...

The list honestly goes on and on...

I'll reiterate what I said before... this is a bad deal for Rampage (mostly because he might have to go to jail) but the sport will be fine... To think that something like this will "set it back years" as someone put earlier is wrong... It will do nothing for or against the sport...

I, myself, have talked about the need to legitimize the sport... And what I've come to figure, is that this is it... Legit... On network TV... Pulling in better numbers than hockey and sometimes basketball... Breaking PPV sales records... What more do you want?

MMA is insanley popular... The people that dinnounce it as "human cockfighting" or whatever would say the same thing about boxing, it's just how those people are... And then ask yourself, why is it so popular? Do new and casual fans get enamoured by the technicality of a ground fight or the elusiveness of Machida? No they don't... They want to see ass kicking slobberknockers... If you don't believe nme check one of those threads that talk about the most important fight in MMA history and most people will say "Forrest vs Bonnar I"( and a lot of those are the hardcore fans!)... Why was this? It was no way near a technical standing bout and didn't show all of the aspects of MMA... It was a great fight though... It was a brawl and that's what a lot of people want to see, not saying you or me, but a lot of people that constitute more of the fanbase then us HCfans do...

The people fighting in the octagon are regular people... They aren't superheros... They are not infallabel... Just like any other sport, they are good at what they do and then go on with their lives when they can... I don't understand how people expect different from guys like Rampage or Melvin Guillard... they grew up without... Poor and in the wrong part of town... Now that we get a chance to see them on TV we all expect them to act like angels??? It's an unrealistic, eutopian outlook that real life will never fullfill


Sorry about the novel and the multiple miss spellings... And if I ranted... i was in a hurry but I hope I got my point across
Rush
7/16/08 3:21:42PM
Most of what you listed were DUIs and as I said, a DUI reflects more about the character of the person, rather than being associated with the sport.

Take a sport that people consider violent and we're tryign to convince them that it is not as bad as they think and that these fighters are just doing business like any other person. When fighters commit violent crimes, they only reinforce the stigma of fighters being violent by nature.


Another example, if you have your taxes done by an accountant for years and that accountant gets a DUI. Most people would not be too concerned about it. However, if the accountant got charged for tax evasion or something related to his job, most people I'm sure would not only have their trust in that accountant shaken, but also accountants in general.

This is the same analogy I am using for this incident and MMA. Nobody expects people to be perfect and act like angels. However, if you call Hit-and-runs and running away from police something that only angels don't do, I'd hate to think what you consider a bad person does. I don't think fans in general expect these fighters to be 100% infalible model citizens, but as I just said, there are certain things that are just known to be wrong and are avoidable.
pv3Hpv3p
7/16/08 4:06:13PM

Posted by Rush

Most of what you listed were DUIs and as I said, a DUI reflects more about the character of the person, rather than being associated with the sport.

Take a sport that people consider violent and we're tryign to convince them that it is not as bad as they think and that these fighters are just doing business like any other person. When fighters commit violent crimes, they only reinforce the stigma of fighters being violent by nature.


Another example, if you have your taxes done by an accountant for years and that accountant gets a DUI. Most people would not be too concerned about it. However, if the accountant got charged for tax evasion or something related to his job, most people I'm sure would not only have their trust in that accountant shaken, but also accountants in general.



Kinda like Riddick Bowe kidnapping his estranged family by knifepoint?


This is the same analogy I am using for this incident and MMA. Nobody expects people to be perfect and act like angels. However, if you call Hit-and-runs and running away from police something that only angels don't do, I'd hate to think what you consider a bad person does. I don't think fans in general expect these fighters to be 100% infalible model citizens, but as I just said, there are certain things that are just known to be wrong and are avoidable.


No, I don't consider hit and run and evading police to be good things to do... But they are not really that bad, in the grand scheme of things... When I read the article, it sounded like drunken driving...

that's why I posted mosly those types of arrests... But you have anything form Jamal Lewis (RB, Cleveland Browns) being charged with possesion of and intent to sell cocaine... Ray Lewis (LB, Baltimore Ravens) charged with MURDER.... Kobe Bryant (FWD, LA Lakers) charged with rape... Adam "Pacman" Jones (CB, Dallas Cowboys) charged with "making it rain" at strip clubs and indirectly causing someones DEATH.... Pete Rose (MLB total hits leader) betting on Baseball while he was a coach... That referee betting on basketball... Wayne Gretzky (the great one) and his gambling ring... Ron Artest (FWD, Ind Pacers) attacking a fan in the stands of a Pacers/Knicks game...

How many examples do you want? Tony Harding litterally had Nancy Kerrigan attacked during olympic trials... during the goddamn olympics... She got her boyfriend or whatever hit her in the knee with a lead pipe for christ's sake...

These are example's of serious violent crimes... You could read any number of articles about this rampage fiasco, and you are not going to (or maybe rarely) come across the word "violent"... This crime just isn't seen as so, not anymore, not in America... You can watch this shit on cops 24 hrs a day... Hitting parked cars and "evading police" is not considered violent crime...

And just to add.... Jamal Lewis was selected to represent his team in the probowl the same year that he was arrested for murder... Marion Barry was caught redhanded smoking crack and screwing hookers while he was the mayor of DC! And was re-elected!!! If people are quick to forget even things like this, then I think MMA will be OK
Pookie
7/16/08 4:16:48PM

Posted by warglory

See, the problem with all of this forgiveness talk is we are ignoring the penalties that should fall upon a celebrity like Rampage. If this was an average person who was plowing into cars, what would you think of him? I guarantee most would be thinking he was some nuts guy that should be put away. Am I saying they should throw the book at Rampage? Not necessarily, but if we come to find out he did the crime, he should do the time REGARDLESS what his intentions were or his state of mind was. Celebrities should not be exempt from the law, and if Jackson gets off with only a fine and some community service, I will be pissed.



its not jsut celebrities, its the wealthy in general. They can afford the type of lawyers that can get you off the hook for almost any crime there is. Its not favoritism, its just a fact of life. The wealthy get away with more because they are wealthy. Tis the world we live in... more than likely hes only going to get a fine and community service if that.
emfleek
7/16/08 4:29:41PM
Damn.

If I could give you props again, pv3Hpv3p, I would. I've agreed with damn near everything I've read that you've posted today.
Rush
7/16/08 4:43:50PM

Posted by pv3Hpv3p

Kinda like Riddick Bowe kidnapping his estranged family by knifepoint?

No, I don't consider hit and run and evading police to be good things to do... But they are not really that bad, in the grand scheme of things... When I read the article, it sounded like drunken driving...

that's why I posted mosly those types of arrests... But you have anything form Jamal Lewis (RB, Cleveland Browns) being charged with possesion of and intent to sell cocaine... Ray Lewis (LB, Baltimore Ravens) charged with MURDER.... Kobe Bryant (FWD, LA Lakers) charged with rape... Adam "Pacman" Jones (CB, Dallas Cowboys) charged with "making it rain" at strip clubs and indirectly causing someones DEATH.... Pete Rose (MLB total hits leader) betting on Baseball while he was a coach... That referee betting on basketball... Wayne Gretzky (the great one) and his gambling ring... Ron Artest (FWD, Ind Pacers) attacking a fan in the stands of a Pacers/Knicks game...

How many examples do you want? Tony Harding litterally had Nancy Kerrigan attacked during olympic trials... during the goddamn olympics... She got her boyfriend or whatever hit her in the knee with a lead pipe for christ's sake...

These are example's of serious violent crimes... You could read any number of articles about this rampage fiasco, and you are not going to (or maybe rarely) come across the word "violent"... This crime just isn't seen as so, not anymore, not in America... You can watch this shit on cops 24 hrs a day... Hitting parked cars and "evading police" is not considered violent crime...



Not that I am picking apart your examples, but Wayne Gretzky never had a gambling ring. Rick Tocchet operated it and Gretzky's wife placed bets. No charges were made for either Gretzky.

But I think you are missing my point with your examples. I never said there weren't examples of violent crimes in sports. In fact I even admitted that my response was uninformed (see earlier posts). However, I still stand by my analogy that I stated in earlier posts. Violent or violent natured acts made by respective athletes have a greater negative impact on violent sports/activities than non-violent sports.

Whether what Rampage did was considered a violent or not is debatable, I agree. I see it as violent.

from the article,


The chase continued with the vehicle weaving in and out of traffic, including at one point driving on the wrong side of the road and even on a sidewalk, scaring pedestrians.


Driving on the sidewalk has violent intentions written all over it IMO.

Rampage could have hurt a number of people and I think that people will generally view it that way. Similar to verbal abuse. It is not violent, but if you see a guy yelling and verbally abusing a kid or woman, you will probably consider him to be violent prone to committing violent acts. I know I would.
Jackelope
7/17/08 1:38:49AM
I really want to keep this topic going. I wish I could contribute more, but I don't have the time.

I think both Pv3oweodasdfkasjfh23 (he's in my damn camp and I can't figure out his name) and Rush are right in their own regards.

Mainly I think Pv3 is missing mine and Rush's point about how it negatively impacts the sport. The difference between Football, Basketball, Hockey, or Baseball is that those are thought of as legitimate sports. When you tell someone that you play Hockey or Football, they don't think of you as a violent person. However, currently there is a vast majority of people who think you are a violent person when you tell them that you train for "UFC". We in the MMA community are trying to transcend that belief. That is how this Rampage incident is capable of setting the sport back.

I don't expect athletes to be infallible. On the contrary I have my faults and have arguably done worse things than what Rampage is currently facing. What I do expect is for someone who has had as much success, dealt with enough personal struggles, and is a 30 year old MAN to act like a MAN and represent the sport he's become a big face of. It's called responsibility. When I was 18, 19, 20 years old I didn't have much of it. However, you bet your ass if I'm a 30 year old champion of a premiere organization, and a millionaire to boot that I'm going to be responsible and act accordingly. I am not a 30 year old man yet, and I'm not the face of any respectable organization, nor am I a millionaire. I still act responsibly and don't run from the cops in a giant truck with my picture painted on the side. I don't even drive drunk and I can barely afford the cab rides!

Point is- I didn't place Rampage on a pedastal, he placed himself there with hard work and determination. He ought to have more self respect for his own achievements, and more respect for the people (Zuffa) and community that supports him. I'm disappointed in him for knocking himself off said pedastal and in the process dragging the reputation of an entire community down with him.

pv3Hpv3p
7/17/08 7:20:14PM

Posted by Jackelope

I really want to keep this topic going. I wish I could contribute more, but I don't have the time.

I think both Pv3oweodasdfkasjfh23 (he's in my damn camp and I can't figure out his name) and Rush are right in their own regards.

Mainly I think Pv3 is missing mine and Rush's point about how it negatively impacts the sport. The difference between Football, Basketball, Hockey, or Baseball is that those are thought of as legitimate sports. When you tell someone that you play Hockey or Football, they don't think of you as a violent person. However, currently there is a vast majority of people who think you are a violent person when you tell them that you train for "UFC". We in the MMA community are trying to transcend that belief. That is how this Rampage incident is capable of setting the sport back.

I don't expect athletes to be infallible. On the contrary I have my faults and have arguably done worse things than what Rampage is currently facing. What I do expect is for someone who has had as much success, dealt with enough personal struggles, and is a 30 year old MAN to act like a MAN and represent the sport he's become a big face of. It's called responsibility. When I was 18, 19, 20 years old I didn't have much of it. However, you bet your ass if I'm a 30 year old champion of a premiere organization, and a millionaire to boot that I'm going to be responsible and act accordingly. I am not a 30 year old man yet, and I'm not the face of any respectable organization, nor am I a millionaire. I still act responsibly and don't run from the cops in a giant truck with my picture painted on the side. I don't even drive drunk and I can barely afford the cab rides!

Point is- I didn't place Rampage on a pedastal, he placed himself there with hard work and determination. He ought to have more self respect for his own achievements, and more respect for the people (Zuffa) and community that supports him. I'm disappointed in him for knocking himself off said pedastal and in the process dragging the reputation of an entire community down with him.




Well put and I understand your points...

There's two things I want to say, and I'll try to keep them brief...

1. From the way some people talk, it's as if this is going to be some sort of devastating blow to the sport... I don't think it will be, it will roll off the UFC's back in no time... I firmly believe this, because America especially (I can't speak for other places) is desensitized to this kind of thing... We see it all the time with famous people of every ilk... Regardless of wether or not the sport is correlated with violence or not... Believe it or not, there are a good number of people out there that think American football is an overly violent sport... And maybe even more people that think basketball is full of thugs... Sports survive these things as long as they bring entertainment to the masses which luckily MMA is very good at... As soon as MMA doesn't entertain, doesn't compel then the sport will be in trouble... Until then, any exposure is good exposure... Might not be the nicest way to say things, but it's true in a business sense, in a "popularity" sense (for lack of better terms), in a legitimate sense...

I want to ask you, what or when is this sport going to be considered legit? What has to happen? I saw highlights of Rampage/Henderson on Sportscenter... Most major sport covering website have an MMA section... I saw an old fat dude wearing a tapout shirt... You can see MMA on television almost every night of the week... But it will never be the NFL or MLB or whatever the world soccer league is called (sorry) for a number of reasons... Mainly because teams have to come from somewhere... All Balck... Manchester U... New York Yankees... LA Lakers... Pittsburgh Steelers... etc etc... Singular competition in sports just doesn't sell the same way... Doesn't breed the same type of fan... Doesn't build the same sense of pride as having the early 90's Penguins be considered a dynasty... It can lift a whole city a whole state a whole country...

Look at sport's like golf, tennis, even boxing... Their biggest event will never touch the superbowl, game 7 of the world series, the world cup... Man on man competition just doesn't generate as much passion from the masses because it's less identifiable with a piece of them, there's less at stake and there isn't the sense of pride that comes from the Red Sox breaking the curse... This is a fact and will not change no matter how much "legitimacy" or whatever MMA attains, it's just how things will be...

2. There is something that you have to see... I understand that it takes a lot of motivation, effort, passion, drive to train and appreciate MMA... But for all that is good about it you will never convince people that it's a non-violent sport... Because it's a very violent sport... It's people beating on eachother and twisting limbs... It's almost the definition of violence... No amount of transending will get people over that fact...

But it's also what draws people to the sport... It's what sells... They don't have "Ultimate Decisions" volumes 1-5, they have Ulitimate Knockouts... There's a reason for that... People want to see it, and the UFC is more than happy to try to show it to them... fans boo and fighters apologize when there isn't enough action, when they can't finish a fight... MMA caters to the "blood lust" of people... The same thing that makes you stare at a car accident when you drive buy, that's what MMA sells... A controlled form of whatever you want to call that viceral emotion/feeling..

It's unrealistic to expect MMA to get any bigger than boxing has ever gotten because that's the things about fistacuffs... It's only going to cater to a certain demographic... People that don't like violence, that don't like boxing, are not going to sit down and watch a couple of mixed martial arts fights and all the sudden have a revalation, it's just not for them and more power to them... I'm not going to sit down and watch a couple of syncronized swimming routines and all of the sudden go but some T-shirts and DVDs... It's a sport for folks like us... A fan that appreciates the finer points of the sport, but also can't help but want to see that big KO or slick sub...


Ahhhhh, sorry I tried to make it brief, but I can't help it... If you read this all the way to hear congratulations I owe you a cookie... Now I really gotta get the hell off of the computer, my eyes feel like they're bleeding and I wanna go watch the 5 event Rumble on the Rock boxset I just picked up at best buy
Jackelope
7/17/08 11:26:18PM

Posted by pv3Hpv3p


Posted by Jackelope

I really want to keep this topic going. I wish I could contribute more, but I don't have the time.

I think both Pv3oweodasdfkasjfh23 (he's in my damn camp and I can't figure out his name) and Rush are right in their own regards.

Mainly I think Pv3 is missing mine and Rush's point about how it negatively impacts the sport. The difference between Football, Basketball, Hockey, or Baseball is that those are thought of as legitimate sports. When you tell someone that you play Hockey or Football, they don't think of you as a violent person. However, currently there is a vast majority of people who think you are a violent person when you tell them that you train for "UFC". We in the MMA community are trying to transcend that belief. That is how this Rampage incident is capable of setting the sport back.

I don't expect athletes to be infallible. On the contrary I have my faults and have arguably done worse things than what Rampage is currently facing. What I do expect is for someone who has had as much success, dealt with enough personal struggles, and is a 30 year old MAN to act like a MAN and represent the sport he's become a big face of. It's called responsibility. When I was 18, 19, 20 years old I didn't have much of it. However, you bet your ass if I'm a 30 year old champion of a premiere organization, and a millionaire to boot that I'm going to be responsible and act accordingly. I am not a 30 year old man yet, and I'm not the face of any respectable organization, nor am I a millionaire. I still act responsibly and don't run from the cops in a giant truck with my picture painted on the side. I don't even drive drunk and I can barely afford the cab rides!

Point is- I didn't place Rampage on a pedastal, he placed himself there with hard work and determination. He ought to have more self respect for his own achievements, and more respect for the people (Zuffa) and community that supports him. I'm disappointed in him for knocking himself off said pedastal and in the process dragging the reputation of an entire community down with him.




Well put and I understand your points...

There's two things I want to say, and I'll try to keep them brief...

1. From the way some people talk, it's as if this is going to be some sort of devastating blow to the sport... I don't think it will be, it will roll off the UFC's back in no time... I firmly believe this, because America especially (I can't speak for other places) is desensitized to this kind of thing... We see it all the time with famous people of every ilk... Regardless of wether or not the sport is correlated with violence or not... Believe it or not, there are a good number of people out there that think American football is an overly violent sport... And maybe even more people that think basketball is full of thugs... Sports survive these things as long as they bring entertainment to the masses which luckily MMA is very good at... As soon as MMA doesn't entertain, doesn't compel then the sport will be in trouble... Until then, any exposure is good exposure... Might not be the nicest way to say things, but it's true in a business sense, in a "popularity" sense (for lack of better terms), in a legitimate sense...

I want to ask you, what or when is this sport going to be considered legit? What has to happen? I saw highlights of Rampage/Henderson on Sportscenter... Most major sport covering website have an MMA section... I saw an old fat dude wearing a tapout shirt... You can see MMA on television almost every night of the week... But it will never be the NFL or MLB or whatever the world soccer league is called (sorry) for a number of reasons... Mainly because teams have to come from somewhere... All Balck... Manchester U... New York Yankees... LA Lakers... Pittsburgh Steelers... etc etc... Singular competition in sports just doesn't sell the same way... Doesn't breed the same type of fan... Doesn't build the same sense of pride as having the early 90's Penguins be considered a dynasty... It can lift a whole city a whole state a whole country...

Look at sport's like golf, tennis, even boxing... Their biggest event will never touch the superbowl, game 7 of the world series, the world cup... Man on man competition just doesn't generate as much passion from the masses because it's less identifiable with a piece of them, there's less at stake and there isn't the sense of pride that comes from the Red Sox breaking the curse... This is a fact and will not change no matter how much "legitimacy" or whatever MMA attains, it's just how things will be...

2. There is something that you have to see... I understand that it takes a lot of motivation, effort, passion, drive to train and appreciate MMA... But for all that is good about it you will never convince people that it's a non-violent sport... Because it's a very violent sport... It's people beating on eachother and twisting limbs... It's almost the definition of violence... No amount of transending will get people over that fact...

But it's also what draws people to the sport... It's what sells... They don't have "Ultimate Decisions" volumes 1-5, they have Ulitimate Knockouts... There's a reason for that... People want to see it, and the UFC is more than happy to try to show it to them... fans boo and fighters apologize when there isn't enough action, when they can't finish a fight... MMA caters to the "blood lust" of people... The same thing that makes you stare at a car accident when you drive buy, that's what MMA sells... A controlled form of whatever you want to call that viceral emotion/feeling..

It's unrealistic to expect MMA to get any bigger than boxing has ever gotten because that's the things about fistacuffs... It's only going to cater to a certain demographic... People that don't like violence, that don't like boxing, are not going to sit down and watch a couple of mixed martial arts fights and all the sudden have a revalation, it's just not for them and more power to them... I'm not going to sit down and watch a couple of syncronized swimming routines and all of the sudden go but some T-shirts and DVDs... It's a sport for folks like us... A fan that appreciates the finer points of the sport, but also can't help but want to see that big KO or slick sub...


Ahhhhh, sorry I tried to make it brief, but I can't help it... If you read this all the way to hear congratulations I owe you a cookie... Now I really gotta get the hell off of the computer, my eyes feel like they're bleeding and I wanna go watch the 5 event Rumble on the Rock boxset I just picked up at best buy



Glad to have a respectful disagreement conversation on the playground again. It's what I love about this place.

Your post was great. A lot of really good points that didn't go unappreciated I assure you. I'll address your points/questions in a numbered fashion corresponding to the numbers you posted.

1. I agree with you that longterm the sport will be able to move past this. I just don't appreciate the negative publicity it is currently getting. Most of all I'm afraid of the demographic this incident might actually ATTRACT to the sport while deterring certain other demographics. It just sets a bad example and I'd hate to see other fighters think they're going to be o.k. if they did something like this.

2. I think to be considered "legitimate" what I would at least like to see is myself telling someone at a dinner conversation that I train "MMA" and to not only have them know what "MMA" is, but to look upon that maybe not with admiration, but with at least a respect for the hard work and technique that goes into the training. I'd be happy if 8 regular people out of 10 knew what it was and what it entails. Right now I'd expect the numbers to be 8 out of 10 saying "What's MMA?" then once they get the "UFC" clarification I'd expect the same 8 out of 10 to think it's just idiots pounding on each other's heads.

Thanks for the great points and the good conversation

+1
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