Pankration

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Mafiakustoms
7/5/07 1:29:19PM
What does everyone think about Pankration in terms of its application to MMA competition? Is it a good basis for striking, takedowns, and groundgame...or does it focus on one area too much? would you need other training, such as, BJJ or thai boxing? I know it is good to train in many forms that have proven successful in MMA, but i was wondering if this would be a good starting point for MMA training.
Thanks
bayonetxwork
7/5/07 2:46:55PM
Pankration/Vale Tudo are definitely great starting points for MMA training. Both incorporate a lot of the same aspects seen in todays mixed martial arts.
Mafiakustoms
7/5/07 3:06:02PM
Good to know...I'll be joining the American Pankration club shortly than. Do they have vale tudo clubs in the US? I know that origionated in Brazil and the gracie family brought it to the US but is Vale tudo a style of martial art or a style of competition? is it based on BJJ?
Omega
7/5/07 3:19:35PM
Pankration is absolutely awesome if you want to get into MMA.
Mafiakustoms
7/5/07 3:33:53PM
Awesome...i went to the website for the pankration club at Arizona State which is the club I am joining. Supposedly the coach, Jeff Funicello has trained Dan Henderson and Mark Kerr comes to some of his camps. Kerr was a beast in his day and i can imagine that he probably still is. Is there alot of Striking in Pankration or does it focus on standup grappling or submission wrestling?
bayonetxwork
7/5/07 5:31:23PM

Posted by Mafiakustoms

Awesome...i went to the website for the pankration club at Arizona State which is the club I am joining. Supposedly the coach, Jeff Funicello has trained Dan Henderson and Mark Kerr comes to some of his camps. Kerr was a beast in his day and i can imagine that he probably still is. Is there alot of Striking in Pankration or does it focus on standup grappling or submission wrestling?



Pankration originated as primarily boxing and wrestling, and it has evolved over time. I'm pretty sure most(maybe all?) Pankration strikes are open fist/palm strikes.
Mafiakustoms
7/5/07 5:40:12PM
I guess that would make sense because in Pancrace Bas Rutten knocked people out with palm strikes...i guess that is pretty effective but if you have gloves you might as well use fists...would it be a good idea to train in something else for striking skills?
bayonetxwork
7/5/07 5:48:18PM

Posted by Mafiakustoms

I guess that would make sense because in Pancrace Bas Rutten knocked people out with palm strikes...i guess that is pretty effective but if you have gloves you might as well use fists...would it be a good idea to train in something else for striking skills?



Muay Thai IMO is the best stand up art, and I'm sure many people would agree. So if you can find yourself a gym in your area that has that, might as well give it a try.
Mafiakustoms
7/5/07 6:00:17PM
Thats kinda what i figured you would say I'll definitely look for a gym...i want to have some monster leg kicks!
couch13
7/5/07 9:40:01PM
pankration strikes are all types of strikes (mostly closed fist). pancrase wasn't pankration the name is just a derivative of pankration. pancrase was hybrid wrestling.
bayonetxwork
7/6/07 4:44:22PM

Posted by couch13

pankration strikes are all types of strikes (mostly closed fist). pancrase wasn't pankration the name is just a derivative of pankration. pancrase was hybrid wrestling.



Ohhh, thanks for clearing that up.
Mafiakustoms
7/10/07 9:09:19AM
Thanks thats good to know
Mastodon2
7/10/07 9:38:47AM

Posted by bayonetxwork


Posted by Mafiakustoms

I guess that would make sense because in Pancrace Bas Rutten knocked people out with palm strikes...i guess that is pretty effective but if you have gloves you might as well use fists...would it be a good idea to train in something else for striking skills?



Muay Thai IMO is the best stand up art, and I'm sure many people would agree. So if you can find yourself a gym in your area that has that, might as well give it a try.



I hear that. I train Muay Thai, and tbh Im a total Muay Thai fanatic, so I might be biased, but without wanting to start a "My martial art is better than yours!" war, MT has the outright most effective offensive and defensive system of any of the popular Martial arts today. Professional Muay Thai competition is just brutal, even K-1 is soft in comparison, and I love K-1!

If you want to see some awesome Muay Thai, go to youtube and search for "Lumpinee Muay Thai", the Lumpinee stadium is the Bangkok (the Captial of Thailand) stadium, the best Muay Thai fighters in all of Thailand fight there. The Dutch are very good at striking sports, but when it comes to pure Muay Thai I still think the Thai's are the best, they invented it and know it better than anyone.
Mafiakustoms
7/10/07 9:44:41AM
Yea i would agree that Muay Thai is a brutal sport. It would be amazing to go to Lumpinee for a few matches. The Thai people are crazy about the sport and extremely dedicated as they fight to survive, and most likely have fought from the time they were 3 years old. I think that is what makes the difference between farang (foreigners) fighting in Muay Thai especially in Thailand and the natives. The Thai do it because it is what they know and to put food on the table, while it is often just a hobbie, sport, or passion for others.
Believe-in-judo81
7/10/07 4:46:11PM
I've done stuff with several guys from a Pankration background and it is definitely a VERY solid base for self defense or MMA.

Modern Pankration is, at it's heart, a combination of western Boxing and Greco Roman wrestling, with a ground game reminiscent of catch or shoot wrestling. Though it is usually touted for it's production of technically sound, well rounded fighters, I think the true magic of Pankration as an MMA base is it's versatility and the ability to easily adapt and add in many moves from other marital arts to your style.

Examples:
Freestyle Wrestling*- Though many school now have this a part of their curriculum, this is likely the first thing guys add outsides of the "canon" of usual Pankration moves. You can use the strikes you were taught to set up a freestyle shot with relative ease, or use your Greco Roman tie ups and body locks to take their balance and switch levels for a quick single or a double leg.

Muay Thai- The low** and Mid kicks you see used in Thai boxing are a great compliment to the strikes you will have already learned. The teep kick (Front Push kick) is also very useful for pushing an aggressive forward moving fighter backward and off balance Allowing you to come in with strikes of your own or attempt a quick takedown. Muay Thai is infamous for it's clinch, and the devastating elbow and knee strikes typically applied from it, all theese can also be learned easily and adapted for use with your basic pankration skills.

Judo- Judo is of course known for it's throws many of which translate well to a no gi environment and can be set up from a wrestling tie up or similar position.

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu- BJJ has a veritable library of sweeps and other moves to help you get to a dominant position and set up strikes on the ground, and allows to round out your grappling skills with it's myriad submissions from various bottom positions, something that Pankration's wrestling centric ground game is somewhat lacking in.

Those are just a few examples, but my point is still the same. Pankration is an effective fighting base, especially for those who are coming into the maritial arts late with a desire to compete in MMA but a more limited amount of time to develop a skill set.

I mentioned Earlier that I've worked with guys From a Pankration background and would like to share the similarities I've seen in Their MMA games, which will hopefully give you an idea of what you're getting into.

Hands- They all have very solid conservative boxing games, with an emphasis on countering and defense. They don't typically like to charge forward aggressively punching but they are more than capable of setting up punching angles or countering and putting an opponent to sleep.

Brutal leg kicks- Very much the cornerstone of their striking game. They like to weaken their opponents ability to sprawl or quickly base out so they can set up a shot , or their personal favorite work their way in and tie up/ clinch for a throw(typically a suplex) or a slam.

Great ground control- Every Pankratcist( is that even a word, haha) I've seen pride themselves on this aspect of their game. They are absolute masters at limiting their opponents offensive movements on the ground.

Fast and explosive/ powerful grapplers- From a top position,they always work to quickly establish control and then advance position to strike, or if given the opportunity submit. And most of the guys I know personally are terrifying off their backs. They to control and stop any strikes coming in and then BAM, you're getting swept and they are either looking to work ground and pound or already transitioning to a submission.

Ground and Pound technicians- Tends to be how they like to try to finish fights. Every that constitutes good solid G&P tactics they do positioning, control,posture, trapping the opponent's arms to limit their defense... they make it look easy.

From my experience with it if you come from a wrestling background or don't have any previous maritial arts experience it's at the very top of the list for potential bases for MMA competition. Well, that's about it, I hope you don't mind the read and it helps.

EDIT: I wanted to add a few notes to this.
* I don't have any formal wrestling training and my understanding of the difference between Greco and Freestyle is as follows.Greco Roman wrestling focuses on working to tie or lock up with your opponent and then throw them, or slam or force them to the ground for a pin. Freestyle wrestling is more focused on ground work, advancing position to score points and try for a pin. And you typically see the shooting takedown attempts or leg pick ups as opposed to the clinched thorws, etc. in Greco.

**Leg kicks are usually taught by Pankration schools that train for MMA competition, but to the best of my Knowledge the style you see now is a fairly modern development taken from Muay thai Kickboxing and other striking styles.

If I'm wrong on either of these points, please correct me.
Mafiakustoms
7/10/07 5:26:28PM
This is Awesome! Thanks for taking the time to seriously answer my question. I really appreciate it! I am more and more excited everyday to train and eventually compete and reading this gave me an idea of what else i may want to train in.
Believe-in-judo81
7/10/07 6:12:20PM
Don't mention it man, I'm a young guy too who's been lucky to do a little training here and there with a few guys who know their stuff and absorb a lot of knowledge about martial arts.

I really am pretty much a beginner still, but the more time I spend around the sport the more I love it and I would love to instruct people in the future after I've had the train to seriously train and become qualified to do so.
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