My opinion on the current P4P Situation!

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Taylor8766
12/12/10 5:41:43PM
After UFC124 and GSP proving himself as the best again. Dana White said in a post fight interview that he still believes Silva is the sports top p4p fighter, and that got me a little ticked so I decided to give my opinion on the sports top 2 p4p fighters.

Georges St. Pierre : Okay first off GSP has won his previous 8 fights over top level fighters such as BJ Penn, Hughes, Fitch, KOS x2. Since losing his title to Matt Serra back in 2007 GSP has not lost a round, and has absolutely dominated every fighter in the WW division. Now although GSP has only finished 3 out of 8, one would make the claim that he is the most complete MMA fighter in the sport. He showcased his stand-up last night and has an amazing wrestling base, as well as a great JJ game. Now IMO the reason I think Dana said Silva is still the best is because hes competed in two weight classes, and has more finishes. However Silva has not been in a top p4p match-up like GSP was when he fought Penn for the second time and he dismantled him.

Anderson Silva : Silva has an amazing 12-0 stint in the UFC, with victories over top fighters such as Franklin, Henderson, Griffin and Sonnen. In his 12 fight win streak he has finished 10 out of 12 which is very impressive. He's competed in two different weight classes and beat both LHW hes faced. So I could understand why Dana would say that, but heres why I think hes number 2 in the sport. First off the quality of opponents hes faced are not in comparision to the fighters GSP has faced. Then theres the fact that he was getting his ass stomped by Chael Sonnen in his last fight really showed that his wrestling his not up to par, and he was even rocked in the stand-up by Sonned numerous times, showing that he can be caught. And I really dont believe hes as a complete fighter as GSP.

So in conclusion GSP in my eyes is the sports top p4p fighter as he hasnt lost a round since 2007(which is a big statement for p4p status), whereas Anderson Silva lost 4 outta 5 rounds to Chael before catching him in a last minute triangle. GSP has faced higher quality opponents and dominated them all. Sure GSP doesnt have as many finishes as Silva but Silva hasnt been as dominate over that span. If in fact the two due end up fighting each other sometime next year which I could see happening after Silva beats Belfort(im going for Belfort ) and GSP disposes of Sheilds the two will likely meet, and I can see GSP utilizing his wrestling and controling Silva, as well as doing fairly well in the stand-up. This is just my opinion, please share yours and why you think there the top p4p fighter.

Props always accepted
State_Champ
12/12/10 5:56:12PM
I agree with you that GSP is the p4p best right now.
I believe this because I think GSP would beat Silva if they fought.
teddythetuna
12/12/10 6:02:18PM
I would have to agree with GSP. I think the fighters he has faced are superior to the ones Silva has fought. I dont think Leites, Cote, Griffin, Irvin , or Sonnen are equivalent to Hughes, Penn, Fitch, Alves, and Kos. Plus with the performances Silva had with Leites and Sonnen, GSP has never had that happen since the serra loss. Fedor was number one until he loss and Silva was number one until Sonnen. I also think with Silva having troubles with Wrestlers (Sonnen for 4 rnds and Henderson in the 1st) Gsp would take down and control Silva. But when Vitor beats Silva we will have a clear cut number 1 anyways.
Taylor8766
12/12/10 6:05:44PM

Posted by teddythetuna

I would have to agree with GSP. I think the fighters he has faced are superior to the ones Silva has fought. I dont think Leites, Cote, Griffin, Irvin , or Sonnen are equivalent to Hughes, Penn, Fitch, Alves, and Kos. Plus with the performances Silva had with Leites and Sonnen, GSP has never had that happen since the serra loss. Fedor was number one until he loss and Silva was number one until Sonnen. I also think with Silva having troubles with Wrestlers (Sonnen for 4 rnds and Henderson in the 1st) Gsp would take down and control Silva. But when Vitor beats Silva we will have a clear cut number 1 anyways.



I hope Belfort does beat Silva, but I really wanna see GSP-Silva
tcunningham
12/12/10 7:00:48PM
GSP is p4p the best fighter out there. he is better than all his opponents in every way where as silva is not i.e. chael sonnen and his wrestling. seems simple to me
warglory
12/12/10 7:21:08PM
The quality of opponents is irrelevant because the champions defend against whoever the organization deems worthy enough. The only question is how do the champions perform, and I think without a question Silva's 7 title defenses to GSP's 5, and two fights in a higher weight class he won simply because the UFC wanted him to do so (one of which was against a former champion of the higher weight class), is enough to classify him as the P4P best.
warglory
12/12/10 7:22:13PM

Posted by tcunningham

GSP is p4p the best fighter out there. he is better than all his opponents in every way where as silva is not i.e. chael sonnen and his wrestling. seems simple to me



But he still found a way to win, that's all that matters.
Pookie
12/12/10 7:24:18PM
I think Anderson Silva still should maintain the p4p king crown. I dont believe GSP would do well against larger framed fighters, whereas Silva has shown that he can go up a weightclass and dominate. And the way each has dominated kind of evens each others own, respective dominance. Anderson finishes his opponents, but might lose rounds. GSP might never lose a round, but his ways of finishing opponents is limited. The littlest nudge in winning streak, percieved skill, and multi-class dominance is what pushed Anderson into #1 still.

On the whole GSP 185 debacle-

I think GSP's versatility is going to go out the window if he fights top 185'ers with reach and either offensive guards or strong wrestling.
Against bigger 170er's he doesn't GnP, and when he does he enables them to stand. This is because although GSP is one of the most explosive, athletic, and physically impressive fighters in the world, he isn't big for his weight class. He works his wrestling through beautiful timing, snatching up takedowns as they're given. But his raw strength isn't enough to keep his opponents on they're backs as he GnP's, when the opponent is bigger than him. Its the smaller opponents he smothers and beats on, the bigger fighters he either controls on the mat, or he controls the fight on the feet.

And with 185 GSP would lose the piece of the puzzle that makes him unbeatable at 170. His reach. At welterweight, There is literally no one other than Rumble with a reach larger than GSP. And the reason why this is pivotal is because his reach enables a larger range to strike from, and when someone collapses the pocket against him, he can shoot in with a takedown from hell. If his opponent doesn't have to collapse the pocket to hit Georges, than Pierre doesnt get such an easy takedown, as the distance away from his opponent when he shoots is what makes his takedowns to effective.
And with a reach disdvantage, Pierre's sniping - methodical style on the feet enables more time for the opponent to work their magic. The higher in weight you go the more threat of a knockout in every punch. Having a style suited for 5 round fights in higher weight divisions is not a benefit.
At 185, i couldn't see Georges St Pierre beating Henderson, Okami, Silva, Sonnen, Belfort, and Maia. All for varying reasons. Different ways of exposing holes in Gsp's game.
Sonnen would make GSP fight on his back, and I doubt Georges gets the sub.
Okami, stuffs the takedowns and the strength difference allows danger on the feet as well.
Maia is another world of grappler, and being naturally bigger amplifies his technique.
Belfort lands punches on fighters when they test range and doesnt strike until he see's it.
Henderson controls the fight's placement and his power is the difference maker.
Anderson Strikes from outside GSP's reach, and if GSP can shoot on the outside to get the takedowns, Anderson's attacking guard will nullify everything Gsp can do offensively, other than hold position. If he GnP's Anderson will stand or attack, if gsp is to try and improve position, he has to get past Andersons guard first.

A whole bunch of ranting and tangent's. But thats basically my Gsp insight for the next couple of years. I doubt i'll learn anything else.
Taylor8766
12/12/10 8:28:12PM

Posted by Pookie

I think Anderson Silva still should maintain the p4p king crown. I dont believe GSP would do well against larger framed fighters, whereas Silva has shown that he can go up a weightclass and dominate. And the way each has dominated kind of evens each others own, respective dominance. Anderson finishes his opponents, but might lose rounds. GSP might never lose a round, but his ways of finishing opponents is limited. The littlest nudge in winning streak, percieved skill, and multi-class dominance is what pushed Anderson into #1 still.

On the whole GSP 185 debacle-

I think GSP's versatility is going to go out the window if he fights top 185'ers with reach and either offensive guards or strong wrestling.
Against bigger 170er's he doesn't GnP, and when he does he enables them to stand. This is because although GSP is one of the most explosive, athletic, and physically impressive fighters in the world, he isn't big for his weight class. He works his wrestling through beautiful timing, snatching up takedowns as they're given. But his raw strength isn't enough to keep his opponents on they're backs as he GnP's, when the opponent is bigger than him. Its the smaller opponents he smothers and beats on, the bigger fighters he either controls on the mat, or he controls the fight on the feet.

And with 185 GSP would lose the piece of the puzzle that makes him unbeatable at 170. His reach. At welterweight, There is literally no one other than Rumble with a reach larger than GSP. And the reason why this is pivotal is because his reach enables a larger range to strike from, and when someone collapses the pocket against him, he can shoot in with a takedown from hell. If his opponent doesn't have to collapse the pocket to hit Georges, than Pierre doesnt get such an easy takedown, as the distance away from his opponent when he shoots is what makes his takedowns to effective.
And with a reach disdvantage, Pierre's sniping - methodical style on the feet enables more time for the opponent to work their magic. The higher in weight you go the more threat of a knockout in every punch. Having a style suited for 5 round fights in higher weight divisions is not a benefit.
At 185, i couldn't see Georges St Pierre beating Henderson, Okami, Silva, Sonnen, Belfort, and Maia. All for varying reasons. Different ways of exposing holes in Gsp's game.
Sonnen would make GSP fight on his back, and I doubt Georges gets the sub.
Okami, stuffs the takedowns and the strength difference allows danger on the feet as well.
Maia is another world of grappler, and being naturally bigger amplifies his technique.
Belfort lands punches on fighters when they test range and doesnt strike until he see's it.
Henderson controls the fight's placement and his power is the difference maker.
Anderson Strikes from outside GSP's reach, and if GSP can shoot on the outside to get the takedowns, Anderson's attacking guard will nullify everything Gsp can do offensively, other than hold position. If he GnP's Anderson will stand or attack, if gsp is to try and improve position, he has to get past Andersons guard first.

A whole bunch of ranting and tangent's. But thats basically my Gsp insight for the next couple of years. I doubt i'll learn anything else.



Your basing this on GSP's frame, if GSP were to go up to 185 he said he would leave the 170lbs division and pack on quite a bit of muscle for 185. And his reach would be fine at 185 because of the fact that he can cover a huge distant in such a quick movement(see Koscheck fight, his jabs were like lightning and KOS couldnt do anything because of how fast GSP was). Which is another reason I believe GSP would do well in the 185 division is because of his speed and explosiveness, which makes him very hard to hit as well. He may have more trouble taking down grapplers in the MW division but he would definetly hold his own and imo would get them down by getting them off balance and sweeping them.
Pookie
12/13/10 6:02:25AM

Posted by Taylor8766


Your basing this on GSP's frame, if GSP were to go up to 185 he said he would leave the 170lbs division and pack on quite a bit of muscle for 185. And his reach would be fine at 185 because of the fact that he can cover a huge distant in such a quick movement(see Koscheck fight, his jabs were like lightning and KOS couldnt do anything because of how fast GSP was). Which is another reason I believe GSP would do well in the 185 division is because of his speed and explosiveness, which makes him very hard to hit as well. He may have more trouble taking down grapplers in the MW division but he would definetly hold his own and imo would get them down by getting them off balance and sweeping them.



I think the muscle would be unnatural, Gsp is 5'9 1/2", Thats practically a rousimar palhares type build if he wants to get big for 185. I don't feel that would compliment gsp's strengths on the feet, although it would help him on the ground.

I think his quick foot movements and mobility is strengthened by his reach. But i wouldn't agree with the notion that the huge distances he covers quickly on the feet allows him to get in on a rangier fighter. He shines when his punches can hit you at the edge of his range and the burst in allows him to hit hard. But i dont think he could try that successfully if his opponents had longer arms, and an equal level of striking prowess. You start getting hit when you throw it, or you change it to a slip under and burst, which changes the whole motion. Also, Koscheck isn't a great barometer to measure striking against. Koscheck has always been hittable and predictable.

I think the size is just too much for him, he's not a big WW as much as he has developed his frame to the WW limit, and that makes the extra division jump seem like a hindrance, as mass becomes excessive quickly on faster fighters.
lohmann
12/13/10 7:23:16AM
The entire "Who is the P4P king, Silva or St. Pierre?" debate always gets sidetracked into things like dominance and finishes, moments of brilliance and moments of weakness, which is unfortunate. Silva and St. Pierre are nothing alike; one relies on exploiting minute mistakes on his opponent's side to end the fight, usually striking, whereas the other seeks to take his opponent into places where he knows he can beat him overwhelmingly, usually in a slow, intelligent way.

The fact is that they both win against the best fighters in their division (or, in Silva's case, occasionally in a second division) and have won for a very long time. Silva's gone without a loss for a longer period of time, though, and that's probably the reason I'd rank him ahead of Georges St. Pierre.
gartface
12/13/10 8:33:40AM
Georges is without a doubt right now the best pound for pound fighter in the world.

My second is not Anderson Silva though. He hasn't displayed the dominance in recent fights that Jose Aldo has.
Taylor8766
12/13/10 12:08:40PM

Posted by gartface

Georges is without a doubt right now the best pound for pound fighter in the world.

My second is not Anderson Silva though. He hasn't displayed the dominance in recent fights that Jose Aldo has.



Interesting I would still say Anderson is number 2 behind Georges, reason being is although Aldo has show a very dominate fighting style he hasnt been to the big dance yet, the UFC, and hasnt dominated there. Thats another reason why GSP and Anderson are one of a kinds because they not only dominate opponents they do it on the biggest stage in the world.