The Official BJ Penn vs. GSP II Debate

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chickmagnet
5/27/08 6:50:29PM
Alright, Let the argument begin. Could and should this fight happen? If so when do you think It will happen? And if so who takes it? and why?

I am rooting for Penn so all you Penn Fans back me up on this one because there are a TON of GSP bandwagoners who will surround me with an argument.

Yes, this fight will happen and I think it will happen kind of early next year. This fight is so HUGE!!

Assuming they both defend their titles they will fight in a five rounder assuming GSP defends his belt against Fitch. Bj i know will still have his belt most likely beating the winner of Kenflo/Roger.

Penn will be the first man to hold two belts simultaneously in two different weight classes.

Let the argument (debate) begin
puppetmaster837
5/27/08 7:07:11PM
could it happen: yes
should it happen: not for a long time

It seems like everytime someone wins the belt people automatically start talking about how they should move weight classes to fight other champions. This is unfair to the contenders in these divisions that have been earning their shots. GSP hasnt even defended his title once, and people are already saying he should fight Silva or Penn? A better idea would be to make him defend his belt. Getting it and defending it are two different things.

And Penn has one title defense. For both of these guys you can talk about how amazing of fighters they are and you can say they will keep their belts forever. But lets have them prove it first. It seems like the ever popular p4p debate is really what is starting all of this up. The most interesting thing is the most dominant champ in the UFC right now is the one that talks the least about moving weight classes. Thats because he is focused on ruling his division like he should be
Boo_Radley21
5/27/08 7:09:22PM
I think the UFC doesn't allow a fighter to hold 2 titles at once. I'm pretty sure once you change weight classes you lose the belt.

That being said GSP would take it.
Pookie
5/27/08 7:11:41PM
Id take Penn. When they fought the first time bj penn was in the worst fighting shape of his life and it still was a SD. Id say the difference between that bj and this one by far surpasses the difference between that gsp and this one.
chickmagnet
5/27/08 7:32:10PM

Posted by Boo_Radley21

I think the UFC doesn't allow a fighter to hold 2 titles at once. I'm pretty sure once you change weight classes you lose the belt.

That being said GSP would take it.



R u sure about both the comments you just said?
Gipper
5/27/08 7:34:55PM
yes this fight should happen after a few more defenses for each guy. it's to close to call.
tuvok500
5/27/08 7:52:11PM

Posted by Boo_Radley21

I think the UFC doesn't allow a fighter to hold 2 titles at once. I'm pretty sure once you change weight classes you lose the belt.

That being said GSP would take it.



Man a fighter can have 2 belts and even 3 if he want to !!

The point is that the guy will have to defend his title in each weight class like normally.

So to be realist, the double champ would have to fight at least 4 time a years, 2 titles defense in each division minimum.







Jackelope
5/27/08 7:56:05PM
I don't see why they can't fight and just make it a non-title matchup. Unless BJ wants the belt. Which I don't really know if he does. Still, I guess I'd be pretty pissed if I went UP to fight someone, beat them, and wasn't considered the king of that weight class.
holt8081
5/27/08 7:57:30PM
Penn 4th round Submission.
candynuts
5/27/08 8:03:58PM
I don't think the fight should happen just yet. There are a lot of WW's that are looking for their chance to fight for the title. Jon Fitch is 8-0 in the UFC and got his shot. Also, I believe Marcus Davis is on a 6 fight, potentially 7 win streak while Alves is on a 5 looking for 6 fight win streak. I know BJ is the former WW champ but I think it would be kinda shitty if BJ gets the nod after the Fitch fight(Especially if Alves and Davis both win).

However, I would not mind if BJ moved up to the WW division, faught someone for the #1 contender, then fights GSP for the title. (Granted that GSP is still the champion by that time).

I could see it happen but I dont want it to happen immediately.
Violence108
5/27/08 8:06:41PM
GSP no dout, he has better stand up and better wrestling then BJ and i think that GSP can take down Penn, i dont think that this fight will happen for a long time , GSP needs to get b Finch first, Penn needs to get my Roger/Kenny
Naturaldisaster
5/27/08 9:10:38PM
no it shouldnt. its a fight I'd love to see but its not neccesary. if they do fight, then it wont be until several ppvs after ufc 87 (Not sure though if GSP/fitch is confirmed). But by the time they do fight their would definitly be Rightful challengers for each title. Huerta/florian will be for #1 contendership for the LW title. and If Alves beat hughes then he should be the #2 contender for the WW title (after fitch). so this fight would be dumb and unfair to the rightful contenders.
Plus if they fight it will no doubt be a WW fight. so Its dumb because it wouldnt be for the titles because if he won GSP would never be able to make LW.
Conclussion=LW champ BJ Penn vs. WW champ GSP is not good for UFC
mkiv9secsupra
5/27/08 9:14:42PM
ID pick Penn in the second fight. Penn controlled the fight in the first round, much like he did against Hughes as well. He gassed out plain and simple as that. GSP has worker on his wrestling but his standup is still far from spectactular and Penn is only getting better. BJ has shown tremendous inprovement in all aspects of his game excluding grappling(hes always shown dominance in grappling) and this time i dont think he gas against GSP and win the decision in a 3 round fight and possibly finish him in a 5 round fight....this is saying much from a guy who couldnt stand BJ les than a year ago.
JimiMak
5/27/08 9:29:55PM
I don't get how this is the official discussion when there's already ten threads and two polls on the main page discussing this.

I wish they would all get merged.
seanfu
5/27/08 9:46:45PM
GSP by demoralization. No matter what shape BJ is in he will ge demolished. Why do I say such a bold statement? GSP is much bigger, BJ can't hold that kind of weight and be in shape.

GSP is sooo much longer on his kicks and his striking is great when able to use his height. IMO the only chance is a BJ penn submission and I don't see that happening with the juggernaut of a wrestler GSP has become.

The fire GSP comes out with against opponents of that level and if BJ questions that first fight we could see the same (Hughes and Serra rematch) GSP. Not a good matchup.

Not that I don't give BJ his respect.

Rush
5/27/08 9:58:42PM
1. Both are great fighters
2. Both need to defend their titles at least three times each before anyone should think about having a catch match. Unless BJ drops his title to move up to WW
3. That being said, I want this match to happen at some point because I am tired of hearing how BJ schooled GSP. The fight went the way it did because BJ was not physically fit as well as the fact that BJ eye poked GSP in the first round. Both of those aspects do not convince me that the first fight was a true test of either fighters' full potential.


This fight needs to happen, but not as a catch weight right now, certainly not when both are champions that have yet to defend their titles.

My pick for the fight would be GSP by TKO in a late round or decision.
chickmagnet
5/27/08 10:38:43PM

Posted by seanfu

GSP by demoralization. No matter what shape BJ is in he will ge demolished. Why do I say such a bold statement? GSP is much bigger, BJ can't hold that kind of weight and be in shape.

GSP is sooo much longer on his kicks and his striking is great when able to use his height. IMO the only chance is a BJ penn submission and I don't see that happening with the juggernaut of a wrestler GSP has become.

The fire GSP comes out with against opponents of that level and if BJ questions that first fight we could see the same (Hughes and Serra rematch) GSP. Not a good matchup.

Not that I don't give BJ his respect.




Wow, thats the first thing I have to say to you! Did you not see the first fight?! It was so close it could've gone either way. BJ demoralized GSP in the stand-up! GSP took BJ down and controlled him very well. BJ was in horrible shape for that fight, and it still was a SD...BJ is better on the ground by FAR!!! and in my opinion just as good a striker, and I think BJ has way more power in his punches than GSP does.

To say the only way BJ could win is by sub is ignorant. If you didn't know BJ has never been KO'd, not even close-has one of the best chins and some of the heaviest set of hands. GSP has got rocked and dropped and KO'd by a guy who is way less dangerous than Bj...... that is Matt Serra who is levels way below Penn. If you noticed George St. Pierre doesn't like to stand and trade since that first fight with Serra when he was finished and thats because hes scared of getting KO'd again, even against Hughes he wouldn't stand up and with Koschek, and especially against Serra. Why do you think GSP likes to wrestle so much now? Before he liked to fight standing mostly until he got wrecked by Serra then it was time to wrestle for GSP....

BJ is a new fighter and would give GSP tremendous problems in a 2nd fight. GSP would have a very hard time taking BJ down because BJ is in great condition now and should carry about 165 if the fight happens.

If BJ was in the condition he's in now back then when he fought GSP he wouldve tko or ko'd GSP in that first fight...no doubt.

WAR PENN!!!

sillysnail
5/27/08 10:47:09PM

Posted by Violence108

GSP no dout, he has better stand up and better wrestling then BJ and i think that GSP can take down Penn, i dont think that this fight will happen for a long time , GSP needs to get b Finch first, Penn needs to get my Roger/Kenny



better standup? i dont know how anybody could make this claim with such confidence, especially considering their last meetup.

you are right that this fight shouldnt happen until both of these guys face fitch and roger/kenny respectively.
MMA
5/27/08 11:05:56PM
This fight should not happen until both guys get some more title defences. I'm extremely opposed to this rematch right now. Also, I think it's really disrespectful for BJ saying that he would not be motivated to fight Florian/Huerta.
jiujitsufreak74
5/27/08 11:25:29PM

Posted by tuvok500


Posted by Boo_Radley21

I think the UFC doesn't allow a fighter to hold 2 titles at once. I'm pretty sure once you change weight classes you lose the belt.

That being said GSP would take it.



Man a fighter can have 2 belts and even 3 if he want to !!

The point is that the guy will have to defend his title in each weight class like normally.

So to be realist, the double champ would have to fight at least 4 time a years, 2 titles defense in each division minimum.



another problem is that there is no way in hell GSP is making 155. if this does happen and he becomes LW champion, he could never defend it because he can't make the weight class. only BJ can hold 2 belts, and even then the constant weight fluctuation would wear him down.

i personally would rather both of these guys to stay in their weight classes and try to make a name for themselves. i mean, GSP doesn't even have 1 title defense at WW and BJ only has 1 title defense at LW. they need to rack up a good 4 defenses in a row each before they should fight each other...and i am not so sure that can happen.
sillysnail
5/27/08 11:28:18PM

Posted by seanfu

GSP by demoralization. No matter what shape BJ is in he will ge demolished. Why do I say such a bold statement? GSP is much bigger, BJ can't hold that kind of weight and be in shape.

GSP is sooo much longer on his kicks and his striking is great when able to use his height. IMO the only chance is a BJ penn submission and I don't see that happening with the juggernaut of a wrestler GSP has become.

The fire GSP comes out with against opponents of that level and if BJ questions that first fight we could see the same (Hughes and Serra rematch) GSP. Not a good matchup.

Not that I don't give BJ his respect.




this entire post just boggles my mind.

1) bj penn has fought every weight class from 155 to 205... the notion that somehow gsp's size (which wasn;t even a factor in their first meetup) would make a difference in their rematch is BEYOND ABSURD. this is the guy that took machida, who is much bigger than gsp, to decision. bj can more than handle his own at ww.

2) again, im not sure if you even watched the first fight before you made this post. ignoring the fact that it was a split decision victory that many thought should have gone to bj (myself included, BJ won the first 2 and gassed in the 3rd), gsp's kicks were largely nullified in that fight. moreover, penn got the better of the striking and only lost that fight because he gassed in the 3rd. look at where bj is now in terms of cardio...banking on bj gassing is becoming a much more dangerous strategy!

Fans of both fighters need to step back from their adoration and realize that these are two fighters that are in their primes and are VERY VERY evenly matched in terms of skill. Both of these guys have worked super hard to overcome their weaknesses and have improved tremendously since their last fight. This will not be a fight in which one dominates the other. I'd say its too close to call and to make any bold claim that one is gonna dominate the other is ill-informed.



NatedawgThaM
5/27/08 11:35:50PM
BJ Penn by domination HE WAS ROBBED IN THEIR LAST FIGHT! I though he definitely won the decision. And that BJ Penn like Pookie said was in the worst fighting shape of his life which surpasses the difference between the current BJ Penn then the current GSP. GSP just has completely chickened out on the feet while making wrestling his current gameplan which is HORRIBLE mistake against BJ Penn, the best P4P grappler in the world!!!

BJ Penn was expecting GSP to stand with him so he trained stand up and destroyed GSP on the feet. GSP then started to use wrestling which BJ penn was too out of shape to defend so GSP beat him on the ground. Now BJ will be ready wherever the fight goes, be in better shape and have much better cardio.

BJ would have finished GSP if he didn't gas. In a 3 round fight, I'd say BJ Penn by a clear decision. In a 5 round fight I'll say BJ Penn stops GSP in 3. Cause in a three round fight he'll work his ass off to dominate him and not get robbed like last time. But in a 5 round fight he knows he'll get tired in the late round so he does not want to go their. I think he'd stop him Serra style in the 3rd!!!
SociopathX
5/28/08 12:03:08AM
This would be one hell of a fight... I think either one could win. so hard to call.

I wish they would just have it soon also... GSP and BJ smoked the closest competiion in there divisions.

After GSP dominates Fitch and BJ dominates Florian they should do this fight around Christmas Time!
gsquat
5/28/08 9:39:44AM
I thought BJ won the first time and I think he'll win the second.
jocka
5/28/08 11:47:16AM

Posted by sillysnail


Posted by seanfu

GSP by demoralization. No matter what shape BJ is in he will ge demolished. Why do I say such a bold statement? GSP is much bigger, BJ can't hold that kind of weight and be in shape.

GSP is sooo much longer on his kicks and his striking is great when able to use his height. IMO the only chance is a BJ penn submission and I don't see that happening with the juggernaut of a wrestler GSP has become.

The fire GSP comes out with against opponents of that level and if BJ questions that first fight we could see the same (Hughes and Serra rematch) GSP. Not a good matchup.

Not that I don't give BJ his respect.




this entire post just boggles my mind.

1) bj penn has fought every weight class from 155 to 205... the notion that somehow gsp's size (which wasn;t even a factor in their first meetup) would make a difference in their rematch is BEYOND ABSURD. this is the guy that took machida, who is much bigger than gsp, to decision. bj can more than handle his own at ww.

2) again, im not sure if you even watched the first fight before you made this post. ignoring the fact that it was a split decision victory that many thought should have gone to bj (myself included, BJ won the first 2 and gassed in the 3rd), gsp's kicks were largely nullified in that fight. moreover, penn got the better of the striking and only lost that fight because he gassed in the 3rd. look at where bj is now in terms of cardio...banking on bj gassing is becoming a much more dangerous strategy!

Fans of both fighters need to step back from their adoration and realize that these are two fighters that are in their primes and are VERY VERY evenly matched in terms of skill. Both of these guys have worked super hard to overcome their weaknesses and have improved tremendously since their last fight. This will not be a fight in which one dominates the other. I'd say its too close to call and to make any bold claim that one is gonna dominate the other is ill-informed.





Those are 2 of my favorite fighter and picking a winner would be base on which i like the most. Both of these fighters are so much better than they were when they first fought that whose knows who would win.

By the way i don t think that GSP is scared of stand up with anyone he just knows that he can dominate pretty much anyone at WW with his wrestling, he's just being smart. Why stand up with someone that can knock you out when you know you can take it to the ground and TKO him. I don't remember who said that GSP used to stand up more before should go check his old fighst even in the TKO org he use to trade on the feet a bit and when he had the chance take the guy down and GnP him to the referee stopage.


One thing is for sure it would be one of the best fight ever but it doesn't have to happend both of them should clean out their own division before thinking about another weight class.
theguido
5/28/08 12:42:18PM

Posted by puppetmaster837

could it happen: yes
should it happen: not for a long time

Very much agree this shoud be a last resort fight after their divisions are completely wiped out.
chickmagnet
5/28/08 1:49:34PM

Posted by NatedawgThaM

BJ Penn by domination HE WAS ROBBED IN THEIR LAST FIGHT! I though he definitely won the decision. And that BJ Penn like Pookie said was in the worst fighting shape of his life which surpasses the difference between the current BJ Penn then the current GSP. GSP just has completely chickened out on the feet while making wrestling his current gameplan which is HORRIBLE mistake against BJ Penn, the best P4P grappler in the world!!!

BJ Penn was expecting GSP to stand with him so he trained stand up and destroyed GSP on the feet. GSP then started to use wrestling which BJ penn was too out of shape to defend so GSP beat him on the ground. Now BJ will be ready wherever the fight goes, be in better shape and have much better cardio.

BJ would have finished GSP if he didn't gas. In a 3 round fight, I'd say BJ Penn by a clear decision. In a 5 round fight I'll say BJ Penn stops GSP in 3. Cause in a three round fight he'll work his ass off to dominate him and not get robbed like last time. But in a 5 round fight he knows he'll get tired in the late round so he does not want to go their. I think he'd stop him Serra style in the 3rd!!!



Agreed!!!

I completely agree with everything you just said. BJ would outsrtike him by far now that he knows GSP is gonna look for the takedown immediatley but I see BJ wearing GSP out, now that BJ is in the absolute greatest fighting shape of his life.

I'm saying BJ by KO in whichever round GSP makes that first big mistake.
tomsmith17381
5/28/08 2:05:25PM
GSP all the way BJ PENN = OVERATED
Manfred
5/28/08 2:23:12PM
It should happen assuming GSP beats Finch (Likely) and BJ beats Florian/Huerta winner (even more likely)

One of two conditions:

BJ reliquishes his LW title if he wins

OR

It's a non-title fight and purely about pride
NinjaCyborg
5/28/08 2:50:10PM
Everyone has forgotten 1 important fact.
The first BJ Penn Vs George St. Pierre fight happened March 4th, 2006. That is well over 2 years ago.
George St. Pierre has improved immensely beyond the fighter he used to be in 2006. Because of this, I believe GSP would beat BJ Penn, not with a split decision but with a 2nd or 3rd round KO.

BJ is talented and a great fighter, I just don't think he could pull off the same performance against the 2 year matured St. Pierre
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