Official Lesnar vs. Couture thread

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Rush
9/2/08 8:53:45PM
Ok, I just deleted a bunch of threads on Randy, Lesnar and Fedor. Nothing personal, but I said I would. There were about 8 on the first page only.

Please keep everything on one thread to have an optimum discussion.

Link to poll on this
jiujitsufreak74
9/2/08 8:59:41PM
i'll just paste my view point into this thread if you don't mind rush

i am very curious with all of the hate. i mean, i understand where a lot of you are coming from: Brock is only 1-1 in the UFC; he is too inexperienced for a title shot; Randy should be fighting Nog for the title right off the bat; Brock is disrespectful to the sport and it sickens me to see him get rewarded with a title shot. i get all the arguments and they are all valid ones.

the only thing is, i happen to have no problem with Brock fighting for the title. i justify it like this: who do you feel has a better shot at defeating Randy? Werdum? i don't think so. he has very solid JJ but has awful wrestling and his heart is weak. Randy would wipe the mat with him. Cain? he is just as inexperienced as Brock is and he hasn't defeated anyone more notable than HH, not to mention he does not match up well against Randy. so who does that leave now? Kongo? nah, he just lost to HH and he is coming off of a win over a nobody. HH, Gonzaga and Vera are both coming off of losses, and the rest of the UFC HWs are nowhere near the top 10. Mir and Nog are both locked up with TUF and no matter how much we detest the TUF process of taking notable fighters away from fighting we have to deal with it.

whether you like it or not, Brock has the best chance to beat Randy. i believe the title picture should always be the Champion vs the fighter who has the best chance to beat him. i know a lot of you guys feel you have to earn your shot, but the whole point of earning the shot is to prove that you are the best man to defeat the champion, and Lesnar seems to have done that in just 2 fights. so, if you really think about it, Brock is the perfect guy for the title fight because e is the only one left who makes you actually stop and think about who you are going to pick to win the fight.

Now, proceed to pick apart my argument and rationalize your point of view
Rush
9/2/08 9:13:51PM
no worries. If anyone had a key post in a thread I deleted, and don't want to re-type it, send me a PM and I'll get it for you. Most of them were short anyways
Khaos
9/2/08 9:18:57PM
I think Lesnar is gonna make Couture his bitch for 5 straight rounds, not unlike he did to the talented, yet one who got dominated, Heath Herring for 3 rounds.
Poohbah
9/2/08 9:19:21PM
A few observations:
1. This will be a huge PPV.
2. Obviously Randy had to cave because UFC had him lock, stock, and barrel. Lesson learned, don''t break a contract.
3. Don't hate Brock Lesnar (AKA Cock Chestnar) because he got a title fight. What was he supposed to do, turn it down?
4. This has fans going ape-sh!t. Well played, Dana.
5. I predict Brock via 2nd round caveman clubbing. Who knows though, really.
6. This is a mismatch. Brock is way too big and strong. And Randy is way too experienced. Crazy!

Twenty20Dollars
9/2/08 9:25:52PM
I think brock will beat lesnar but I also think that might be pushing brock too fast, because he can fall off just as fast. Werdum vs Couture would make more logical sense that would be a closer to fight IMO. From the business side of the couture vs lesnar fight, its f*cking huge and I think that is the main reason behind that or maybe dana wants to punish couture for trying to leave by putting him against the monster of lesnar.

Heres how I think it goes, Lesnar beats couture tko rnd 2, big nog beats mir and then you have big nog vs lesnar which idk who i would pick. As much as I would like to see lesnar vs mir 2, dont think mir will beat big nog but who knows.

One positive thing about lesnar vs couture is now lesnar wont fight Kongo(but now has an injury I think).

Brock could most likely be the "next big thing" for the UFC HW division while it is rebuilding.
ufcboss
9/2/08 9:33:56PM
I think brock will beat lesnar too!

Sorry! Had to do it!
tsabes
9/2/08 9:39:13PM

Posted by Twenty20Dollars

I think brock will beat lesnar but I also think that might be pushing brock too fast, because he can fall off just as fast. Werdum vs Couture would make more logical sense that would be a closer to fight IMO. From the business side of the couture vs lesnar fight, its f*cking huge and I think that is the main reason behind that or maybe dana wants to punish couture for trying to leave by putting him against the monster of lesnar.

Heres how I think it goes, Lesnar beats couture tko rnd 2, big nog beats mir and then you have big nog vs lesnar which idk who i would pick. As much as I would like to see lesnar vs mir 2, dont think mir will beat big nog but who knows.

One positive thing about lesnar vs couture is now lesnar wont fight Kongo(but now has an injury I think).

Brock could most likely be the "next big thing" for the UFC HW division while it is rebuilding.


"I think that is the main reason behind that or maybe dana wants to punish couture for trying to leave by putting him against the monster of lesnar."

Exactly the first thing I thought. I think Couture will be overwhelmed. Between Couture's lengthy off time and Lesnar's sheer size, it will be extremely difficult fight for Randy. I can tell you this, it may break every MMA PPV record there is...I'll be a part of it, for sure.
Poohbah
9/2/08 9:49:47PM


"maybe dana wants to punish couture for trying to leave by putting him against the monster of lesnar."

I agree with you guys, I think this is Dana's way of "welcoming" Randy back into the UFC. Seems like a horrible matchup for Randy. Randy is undersized, Brock is oversized. Randy's strength is wrestling and it will be nullified by a National Champ. Brock can strike with power, too.

This reminds me of the Tito vs. Machida matchup Dana orchestrated.

But if Randy wins.....Wow.
fonduktoe
9/2/08 10:59:54PM
alot of people are predicting lesnar by caveman attack
on paper it seems that brock has the edge in many areas (all but experience basically) but randy is one of those "crafty veterans" that you can't count out.
i thought sylvia would dismantle him, but that fight turned into one of the most exciting upsets ever.
Cdellorso
9/2/08 11:17:29PM

Posted by Twenty20Dollars

I think brock will beat lesnar but I also think that might be pushing brock too fast, because he can fall off just as fast. Werdum vs Couture would make more logical sense that would be a closer to fight IMO. From the business side of the couture vs lesnar fight, its f*cking huge and I think that is the main reason behind that or maybe dana wants to punish couture for trying to leave by putting him against the monster of lesnar.

Heres how I think it goes, Lesnar beats couture tko rnd 2, big nog beats mir and then you have big nog vs lesnar which idk who i would pick. As much as I would like to see lesnar vs mir 2, dont think mir will beat big nog but who knows.

One positive thing about lesnar vs couture is now lesnar wont fight Kongo(but now has an injury I think).

Brock could most likely be the "next big thing" for the UFC HW division while it is rebuilding.



I diagree Lessnar will Kill Brock hes to big.... too strong ------- too big ----- tooo strong ------ less taste more fillling or something!!
Jackelope
9/2/08 11:58:31PM

Posted by jiujitsufreak74

i'll just paste my view point into this thread if you don't mind rush

i am very curious with all of the hate. i mean, i understand where a lot of you are coming from: Brock is only 1-1 in the UFC; he is too inexperienced for a title shot; Randy should be fighting Nog for the title right off the bat; Brock is disrespectful to the sport and it sickens me to see him get rewarded with a title shot. i get all the arguments and they are all valid ones.

the only thing is, i happen to have no problem with Brock fighting for the title. i justify it like this: who do you feel has a better shot at defeating Randy? Werdum? i don't think so. he has very solid JJ but has awful wrestling and his heart is weak. Randy would wipe the mat with him. Cain? he is just as inexperienced as Brock is and he hasn't defeated anyone more notable than HH, not to mention he does not match up well against Randy. so who does that leave now? Kongo? nah, he just lost to HH and he is coming off of a win over a nobody. HH, Gonzaga and Vera are both coming off of losses, and the rest of the UFC HWs are nowhere near the top 10. Mir and Nog are both locked up with TUF and no matter how much we detest the TUF process of taking notable fighters away from fighting we have to deal with it.

whether you like it or not, Brock has the best chance to beat Randy. i believe the title picture should always be the Champion vs the fighter who has the best chance to beat him. i know a lot of you guys feel you have to earn your shot, but the whole point of earning the shot is to prove that you are the best man to defeat the champion, and Lesnar seems to have done that in just 2 fights. so, if you really think about it, Brock is the perfect guy for the title fight because e is the only one left who makes you actually stop and think about who you are going to pick to win the fight.

Now, proceed to pick apart my argument and rationalize your point of view



You know my opinion on Brock, but I'll oblige you-

.

the whole point of earning the shot is to prove that you are the best man to defeat the champion, and Lesnar seems to have done that in just 2 fights



Has he? I mean honestly what has he proven that we didn't already know? To me the only thing he's proven that I questioned was whether or not he had cardio.

What did we know going into this whole Brock Lesnar thing-

He's super strong
He's got a great wrestling base
He's fast for his size

What questions did we have?

Does he have cardio? (Answered- yes)
Does he have a chin?
Does he have submission defense?
Can he strike?

Honestly I don't really see how he's progressed enough as a fighter by beating an on again off again competitor in Heath Herring. He has only positively answered one question so far and that is the cardio question.

I'd just caution anyone from jumping on the bandwagon yet. The man has not been tested, and IMO hasn't proved his worthiness any more or less than the rest of the UFC's HW roster. The simple fact is that he's getting this shot against Randy for the PPV draw. It's all about the $$$ and arguably in a small sense it's about his "potential" which is all it is at this point.

People are going to say he can strike because of the punches on Mir and Herring. All I can say is that Mir and Herring aren't exactly known for their striking. Herring, like an idiot, fell for an easy trick that he should have known was coming. Same way Randleman caught Crocop. I'm just not buying him yet
handstrong
9/3/08 1:23:06AM
How many people gave Couture a chance with Silvia? I'd say somewhere around 20% or so. Even Gonzaga was favored over Couture. ??? He had a significant size advantage, and everyone thought he would manhandle Randy. Lesnar might knock out Randy, but I don't think he will get flung around like a rag doll, like most people think. He's way too crafty in the clinch. Lesnar couldn't even finish Herring and Couture is way more saavy and much smarter of a fighter than Herring. We haven't even seen Brock get hit yet. And what Lesnar's submission defense? Don't count out the Natural. Lesnar is BIG and STRONG, but Couture is a fighting mastermind who knows how to cut down giants. I'm going with David over Goliath even at 45 yrs old.
hails
9/3/08 5:12:37AM
I think the biggest problem here is, how thin the HW Division is. Now that Randy is back, I bet the other guys wished they had stayed.

AA and big Tim!!! Where are they now!!! The UFC had no choice but to make this match up, the HW division is way too thin!!! This needs to be addressed ASAP!

It was Either Randy v Brock or Randy v Neil Wain.

tdietel01
9/3/08 6:19:33AM
there is a reason brocks chin hasnt been tested, he wont allow it! he gets in his shot and then smothers whoever he is fighting for the rest of the fight. there is only so much craftiness that will help you against a monster like lesnar. the size factor will be too much for couture. i still think if GG didnt have blood in his eyes the whole time he could have won the match. basically this will be a small wrestler against a much bigger wrestler match and the big wrestler is also faster! no way randy wins
Jackelope
9/3/08 8:20:07AM
Yes, Brock's chin hasn't been tested because he won't allow it. He's such a phenomenal striker with great footwork that no striker stands a chance.
jomatty
9/3/08 8:57:49AM
the sad part is the very likely imo possibility of randy getting beat and taking all the steam out of a fedor randy fight. if it happens while randy is at the top of the ufc, whether active in the organization or not, then it is a huge fight. its still huge with him having lost to lesnar but not nearly as big. at that point fedor has just beat someone he is supposed to beat. ill be rooting for randy as hard as ive ever rooted for anyone when he squares off with lesnar but i think he is gonna need more than positive thoughts to pull this off. here is hoping that the master of gameplans has an ace up his sleave...
Rush
9/3/08 9:09:16AM

Posted by handstrong

How many people gave Couture a chance with Silvia? I'd say somewhere around 20% or so. Even Gonzaga was favored over Couture. ??? He had a significant size advantage, and everyone thought he would manhandle Randy. Lesnar might knock out Randy, but I don't think he will get flung around like a rag doll, like most people think. He's way too crafty in the clinch. Lesnar couldn't even finish Herring and Couture is way more saavy and much smarter of a fighter than Herring. We haven't even seen Brock get hit yet. And what Lesnar's submission defense? Don't count out the Natural. Lesnar is BIG and STRONG, but Couture is a fighting mastermind who knows how to cut down giants. I'm going with David over Goliath even at 45 yrs old.



I picked that fight Randy for the decision. Randy is not a submission guy. He has said this himself.

by saying Lesnar couldn't finish Herring isn't saying much. Nog couldn't finish Heath twice and Heath even went 10 min against Fedor, before it was stopped because of a cut. The only reason that fight kept going was because Lesnar took his time and good reffing and the fact that Heath is still pretty tough. I can't say whether Lesnar took his time because of inexperience or he wanted to prove something or what.

I think the main thing is that it boils down to the fact that Lesnar's strength (wrestling) is also Randy's main weapon and that Lesnar is a bigger stronger and faster fighter.... and younger.
cmb19932
9/3/08 9:56:27AM
lesnar by ko round three hes young fast and hungry randys leavin any way why does he care
shogun7
9/3/08 10:15:00AM
I said that lesnar was going to be heavyweight champion months ago and said that lesnar was better than couture. I then got laughed at and was called a nuthugger by several people. Wow how dumb u all look right now. Lesnar is going to beat the shit out of couture wait and see. I guess nuthugging can be referred to on this site as knowing what the hell your talking about.
Bumpy
9/3/08 11:32:31AM
Randy tko by the 2nd. Brock might be big but he dont have the experience that Randy has, Brock was a amamateur wrestler and has had 3 mma fights with a 2-1 record. Im not sayin he dont have a chance but was does he bring that says he will kill Randy as fast as every one thinks he will?
BIGKAT
9/3/08 12:02:12PM

Posted by Jackelope


Posted by jiujitsufreak74

i'll just paste my view point into this thread if you don't mind rush

i am very curious with all of the hate. i mean, i understand where a lot of you are coming from: Brock is only 1-1 in the UFC; he is too inexperienced for a title shot; Randy should be fighting Nog for the title right off the bat; Brock is disrespectful to the sport and it sickens me to see him get rewarded with a title shot. i get all the arguments and they are all valid ones.

the only thing is, i happen to have no problem with Brock fighting for the title. i justify it like this: who do you feel has a better shot at defeating Randy? Werdum? i don't think so. he has very solid JJ but has awful wrestling and his heart is weak. Randy would wipe the mat with him. Cain? he is just as inexperienced as Brock is and he hasn't defeated anyone more notable than HH, not to mention he does not match up well against Randy. so who does that leave now? Kongo? nah, he just lost to HH and he is coming off of a win over a nobody. HH, Gonzaga and Vera are both coming off of losses, and the rest of the UFC HWs are nowhere near the top 10. Mir and Nog are both locked up with TUF and no matter how much we detest the TUF process of taking notable fighters away from fighting we have to deal with it.

whether you like it or not, Brock has the best chance to beat Randy. i believe the title picture should always be the Champion vs the fighter who has the best chance to beat him. i know a lot of you guys feel you have to earn your shot, but the whole point of earning the shot is to prove that you are the best man to defeat the champion, and Lesnar seems to have done that in just 2 fights. so, if you really think about it, Brock is the perfect guy for the title fight because e is the only one left who makes you actually stop and think about who you are going to pick to win the fight.

Now, proceed to pick apart my argument and rationalize your point of view



You know my opinion on Brock, but I'll oblige you-

.

the whole point of earning the shot is to prove that you are the best man to defeat the champion, and Lesnar seems to have done that in just 2 fights



Has he? I mean honestly what has he proven that we didn't already know? To me the only thing he's proven that I questioned was whether or not he had cardio.

What did we know going into this whole Brock Lesnar thing-

He's super strong
He's got a great wrestling base
He's fast for his size

What questions did we have?

Does he have cardio? (Answered- yes)
Does he have a chin?
Does he have submission defense?
Can he strike?

Honestly I don't really see how he's progressed enough as a fighter by beating an on again off again competitor in Heath Herring. He has only positively answered one question so far and that is the cardio question.

I'd just caution anyone from jumping on the bandwagon yet. The man has not been tested, and IMO hasn't proved his worthiness any more or less than the rest of the UFC's HW roster. The simple fact is that he's getting this shot against Randy for the PPV draw. It's all about the $$$ and arguably in a small sense it's about his "potential" which is all it is at this point.

People are going to say he can strike because of the punches on Mir and Herring. All I can say is that Mir and Herring aren't exactly known for their striking. Herring, like an idiot, fell for an easy trick that he should have known was coming. Same way Randleman caught Crocop. I'm just not buying him yet



PROPS TO YOU! For making sense.

State_Champ
9/3/08 12:06:18PM
This fight has so much controversy surrounding it that to me it just seems like another great piece of evidence to add to the argument for a official UFC rankings system.

also, randy is gonna tool lesnar hardcore!

WAR randy!!!!
cowcatcher
9/3/08 1:09:43PM

Posted by shogun7

I said that lesnar was going to be heavyweight champion months ago and said that lesnar was better than couture. I then got laughed at and was called a nuthugger by several people. Wow how dumb u all look right now. Lesnar is going to beat the shit out of couture wait and see. I guess nuthugging can be referred to on this site as knowing what the hell your talking about.



um id slow down a little here bud, lesnar hasnt beaten randy yet, and everyone on here, and in fact the whole world has made predictions that were right, and wrong so why toot your horn when NOTHING HAS EVEN HAPPENED YET?
mkiv9secsupra
9/3/08 1:20:50PM

Posted by shogun7

I said that lesnar was going to be heavyweight champion months ago and said that lesnar was better than couture. I then got laughed at and was called a nuthugger by several people. Wow how dumb u all look right now. Lesnar is going to beat the shit out of couture wait and see. I guess nuthugging can be referred to on this site as knowing what the hell your talking about.



and were still laughing because even a week ago there was no way in hell you could have known Lesnar would be put in this situation, not because he is the best in the UFC, just simply because Nogueira and Mir were already scheduled. Now how dumb you look going on a tirade thinking you know what youre talking about yet just proving you are a jackass
jiujitsufreak74
9/3/08 2:14:33PM

Posted by Jackelope
Has he? I mean honestly what has he proven that we didn't already know? To me the only thing he's proven that I questioned was whether or not he had cardio.

What did we know going into this whole Brock Lesnar thing-

He's super strong
He's got a great wrestling base
He's fast for his size

What questions did we have?

Does he have cardio? (Answered- yes)
Does he have a chin?
Does he have submission defense?
Can he strike?

Honestly I don't really see how he's progressed enough as a fighter by beating an on again off again competitor in Heath Herring. He has only positively answered one question so far and that is the cardio question.

I'd just caution anyone from jumping on the bandwagon yet. The man has not been tested, and IMO hasn't proved his worthiness any more or less than the rest of the UFC's HW roster. The simple fact is that he's getting this shot against Randy for the PPV draw. It's all about the $$$ and arguably in a small sense it's about his "potential" which is all it is at this point.

People are going to say he can strike because of the punches on Mir and Herring. All I can say is that Mir and Herring aren't exactly known for their striking. Herring, like an idiot, fell for an easy trick that he should have known was coming. Same way Randleman caught Crocop. I'm just not buying him yet



we know that he is a force to be reckoned with at HW. i think he has shown that he has the tools right now to give Randy the biggest threat. yes, there are still variables, but randy won't really test his submission defense and the striking variable will be answered. i can tell you right now though, that i think Brock has better stand-up then both Werdum and GG. in all o fhis fights he has dropped his opponent. now, i personally don't like Brock, but i do have to say that he is the best choice for challenger because Werdum matches up horribly with Randy and the rest of the UFC HW division won't have a decent shot at beating Randy. ask yourself this question, is there another HW that has a better chance of beating Randy? to me the answer is no, and because of that i think his shot at the title is justified.
cowcatcher
9/3/08 2:29:43PM
all this werdum talk has me wondering if anyone remembers that hes scheduled to fight junior dos santos already. granted, the ufc has canned matches to make better matchups before, but
1)werdum hasnt been stellar in the ufc so far
2)brock has looked far more impressive than fabricio in the ufc so far, like him or not
3)werdum is in no way the draw lesnar is, no ifs ands or buts about it

so to me werdum was never really an option in the first place, or at least not one that the ufc wanted to throw in there for the legends big return.
emfleek
9/3/08 2:33:38PM
The thought of a Werdum/Couture matchup makes me yawn uncontrollably.
jiujitsufreak74
9/3/08 2:59:34PM

Posted by cowcatcher

all this werdum talk has me wondering if anyone remembers that hes scheduled to fight junior dos santos already. granted, the ufc has canned matches to make better matchups before, but
1)werdum hasnt been stellar in the ufc so far
2)brock has looked far more impressive than fabricio in the ufc so far, like him or not
3)werdum is in no way the draw lesnar is, no ifs ands or buts about it

so to me werdum was never really an option in the first place, or at least not one that the ufc wanted to throw in there for the legends big return.



that is exactly what i am talking about
loller90278
9/3/08 3:18:46PM

Posted by jiujitsufreak74


Posted by cowcatcher

all this werdum talk has me wondering if anyone remembers that hes scheduled to fight junior dos santos already. granted, the ufc has canned matches to make better matchups before, but
1)werdum hasnt been stellar in the ufc so far
2)brock has looked far more impressive than fabricio in the ufc so far, like him or not
3)werdum is in no way the draw lesnar is, no ifs ands or buts about it

so to me werdum was never really an option in the first place, or at least not one that the ufc wanted to throw in there for the legends big return.



that is exactly what i am talking about



i disagree, werdum has climbed the ranks and has earned to be the top contender. he took out gonzaga and vera, both in dominating fashion. i say dana pairs up lesner vs werdum to get a crack at the winner of minotauro/mir
and have randy wait it out to fight the interim champ. i dont see the point in rushing couture to fight (granted his age, but he was willing to wait against fedor)


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