OFFICIAL CSAC Machida/Shogun scorecards=MMA WEEKLY link

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hippysmacker
10/26/09 3:05:16AM
Here's a look at what all 3 judges thought. machiad vs shogun scorecards
Aether
10/26/09 4:41:18AM
blows me away that anyone could think round 1 went to Machida.

now compare those to these stats:

fightmetric stats

Round 1 and 4 are the only rounds that the judges had any disagreement on. Machida was outstruck by around 2:1 in both cases, and I think it was clear that Rua's shots were harder and causing more damage. How they could miss such a discrepancy is beyond me.
ryu99
10/26/09 10:18:05AM
1. Shogun
2. Machida
3. Shogun
4. Shogun
5. Shogun

Shogun 49-46
Mhunt1140
10/26/09 10:19:35AM
I watched that fight four more times trying to see what the judges say and each time I came to the same conclusion, Shogun won. I even went as far as to have a friend who has never watched an mma fight in his life watch the fight and tell me who he think won. I kept the fight on mute and did not tell him who was the champion or who was the challenger so it was a purely unbiased opinion. As I expected, he also felt that Shogun won the fight.

I honestly have no idea how Shogun lost because, as it has already been mentioned, he outstruck Machida nearly 2 to 1 and inflicted much more damage.

Part of the scoring is based on effective striking, aggressiveness, and Octagon control. Let's recap, Shogun won the striking battle nearly 2 to 1 and arguably inflicted more damage, and he was attempting to take the fight to the ground at times and he dominated the clinch game with vicious knees and elbows. Finally he was stalking Machida for the majority of the fight, thus controlling the Octagon.

It's decisions like these that tarnish the UFC. The first one that comes to mind is Hamil and Bisping
SamPan
10/26/09 11:48:56AM
Rd 2 and 3 were Machidas I thought. But they were debatable. The others were definitely Shoguns.
ryu99
10/26/09 12:20:15PM

Posted by SamPan

Rd 2 and 3 were Machidas I thought. But they were debatable. The others were definitely Shoguns.



I can see that, but to give Machida 3 rounds is absurd.
bjj1605
10/26/09 12:36:13PM

Posted by Aether

blows me away that anyone could think round 1 went to Machida.

now compare those to these stats:

fightmetric stats

Round 1 and 4 are the only rounds that the judges had any disagreement on. Machida was outstruck by around 2:1 in both cases, and I think it was clear that Rua's shots were harder and causing more damage. How they could miss such a discrepancy is beyond me.



Those stats seem to confirm what I thought initially. That was the only rounds Machida could have one were rounds one and three. Rnd 1 he may have been out struck 19-11 but 15 of those were leg kicks, which in the first round Machida was defending well and I felt did little damage (at least initially). Round two Rua out body kicked him but Machida did land some shots to the head and some body kicks of his own (in the judges defense). Round 3 Machida won every category other than leg kicks and had a big flurry at one point in the round. Round 4 both fighters were fairly inactive but Shogun threw and landed more (still considering the inactivity this may have been a hard round to score and could be given to the champ). Round 5 Machida kept his inactivity from the previous round while Shogun turned up the volume of hit strikes.

Now that is may synopsis based on the stats given here. I think it is important to notice that it sounds very different from the fight we all remember, and I believe that by these stats you could argue in favor of Machida winning the fight more easily than with out them. I contend that not only do stats in general not tell the whole story, I'm not sold on the accuracy of these stats in particular. What credentials do these guys have? I'm actually planning on watching this fight in slow-mo today and giving my own stat count.
submissionartist1
10/26/09 12:40:20PM
You cant win a fight on leg kicks machida hit rua 2-5 times for every 1 strike and if you wanna impliment leg kicks as your main offense use it till the later rounds and try to finish dont try to outpoint a karate champion. this sport needs better informed fans....

some fans get lost in what Rogan says he looked like a tool at the end talking to the champ for 10 seconds then runnin to Rua to hug his nuts, and sounded like one that whole fight, the guys a Tae Kwon Do fighter and wow a slappin body kick to the left hand side of the body where ther are no organs to hurt, that only landed because thats machida open side any thai fighter will expose that, rogan should have looked up and seen the 5 knees or 3-5 punch combos that were lnded by machida

Rua made 1 dark red mark on machida from a toe kick machida lit up ruas whole body. that was a great fight but the right person won machida owned round 1 and rua round 4 rnd other then that judges card looked good pick up an officiating book or talk to a karate judge




chickmagnet
10/26/09 1:05:12PM
I wasnt impressed by either fighter. I know Machida could have done far better than he did. And Shogun didnt really commit during the fight. He attacked Machida a couple times but Machida evaded every time. Shogun didnt land many hand strikes, mostly leg kicks. Machida landed like 2 good knees to the body and a couple flurries of punches. However I think this fight was closer than ppl think.
Edwards
10/26/09 1:08:04PM
i had shogun 1,2,4 and 5 for and 3 being close,i jus still 2 days later cant believe what i witness,i thought i'd never see anything has bad as bisping/hamill but the judges seem to top that,worst dec in mma history.to rob a man of his dream is jus wrong and i wont say anymore because i dont want to get kick off the site.
Svartorm
10/26/09 1:37:00PM
Leg kicks aren't scored as effective striking. Its a throwback to boxing judges who don't score punches to the arms. While it has an effect on fighting, they don't score them as they themselves aren't fight enders unless theres an injury.

Take away the leg kicks, and you have Machida landing clinch knees and punches far more often than Shogun. While I don't agree with the winner, according to the way fights are scored right now, its the correct way to go. Blame the system.

Oh, and to submissionartist1, your spleen is on the left side of your body and you can certainly hit it.
Aether
10/26/09 2:36:01PM
Maybe they don't score them as such, but leg kicks absolutely can be fight enders, even without injury. It's not uncommon to see cumulative leg kicks end a fight if they're thrown as the main attack, it's just that people rarely throw enough of them to do this and rarely commit with enough force to cause this kind of damage. Most fighters just throw them to create openings for punches or head kicks.
george112
10/26/09 2:53:30PM
i havent seen the fight yet.but plan on seeing it in a minute.

with that being said.the way the fight went sounds like rua just throwing leg kicks the whole time.
CwB
10/26/09 2:53:44PM

Posted by submissionartist1


you guys get lost in what Rogan says he looked like a tool at the end talking to the champ for 10 seconds then runnin to Rua to hug his nuts, and sounded like one that whole fight, the guys a Tae Kwon Do fighter and wow a slappin body kick to the left hand side of the body where ther are no organs to hurt, that only landed because thats machida open side any thai fighter will expose that, rogan should have looked up and seen the 5 knees or 3-5 punch combos that were lnded by machida






Its funny everyone keeps saying Rogans comments blinded our decision. Just listen to the crowd for an unbiased Decision. They were chanting machida early on and still booed like crazy at the UD. (and if you dont know, there is no commentating at live events)

Yes machida would rush and land 4-5 punches, but i saw 90% of those punches land on shoguns arms (which were blocking his face). Watch the flurry at the end of round three, Machida did not land one clean shot, but he did get hit with a small left hook and a big right.

This isnt Karate, its mma which uses a completely different scoring systems... and i felt Rua was more aggresive, landed more effective strikes, had octagon control, and there wasnt any grappling but the clinch game i would give to RUA.

I thought machidas punches were mostly ineffective and always led to a hard counter by RUA

I thought that Rua stalked Lyoto majority of the fight (taking the center of the ring)

I thought that machida did better in the clinch (when the clinch happened away from the cage) but Rua almost always spun lyoto's back against the cage and then landed tons of knees, while pinning and controlling lyoto against the cage. (and every time they broke from the clinch Shogun landed a shot)

Every mma site i have read after the fight thought shogun won. 90% of us on here thought shogun won. Even the Las Vegas Sunday news paper said "Machida fights a losing battle, but wins the decision"

Dont tell us we dont know anything, when you are in the minority here. We all have opinions but dont attack mine for not agreeing with you.

Edit: added some stuff
Aether
10/26/09 3:18:55PM
yeah, I'm sure quite a few of us also watched the fight in a loud crowded bar where commentating was almost completely inaudible. I know I did. The commentating excuse is kind of ridiculous given the number of people who agree on this.
emfleek
10/26/09 3:30:34PM

Posted by Aether

yeah, I'm sure quite a few of us also watched the fight in a loud crowded bar where commentating was almost completely inaudible. I know I did. The commentating excuse is kind of ridiculous given the number of people who agree on this.



Same here. Everyone in the bar was upset.

It caught me off guard (the decision) but looking back on it, I don't think it was as decisive as the majority seems to think.
Aether
10/26/09 3:44:11PM
it was definitely close, but I thought Shogun had a clear enough edge in 3 rounds that I can't see any other than 2 and 3 going to machida.
Canadian-Pain
10/26/09 3:50:35PM
I gave 1 and 2 to Rua, 3 to Lyoto, 4 to Rua and 5 to Lyoto as Rua was just waiting for the bell as he thought he was up 3-1


But if leg kicks do not count it was Lyoto's fight i guess. I don't agree personally, and i was rooting for Lyoto if it mattered.

Sadly i hope there is no rematch, i found it boring personally, there was no agressor, they were both going for the counter.
mshalosky
10/26/09 4:21:36PM
1-4 were to close to call 5 was shogun if u dont beat the champion then u dont win the title.
bjj1605
10/26/09 6:03:52PM

Posted by Aether

yeah, I'm sure quite a few of us also watched the fight in a loud crowded bar where commentating was almost completely inaudible. I know I did. The commentating excuse is kind of ridiculous given the number of people who agree on this.



Honestly the crowded bar excuse brings up a whole different issue. I watch the fights at home with my friends and might have one or two drinks. Some one watching in a bar (and, or drinking a lot) will likely miss more than the judges sitting ring side.
CwB
10/26/09 6:07:27PM

Posted by Edwards

the few fools that think machida won the fight is the reason why nothing will be done about bad decision because ppl like u defend judges that have no right to call fights. room full of ppl and bar full of ppl across the ****** world thought shogun won so dont tell me everybody was listening to rogan.i have a idea why dont u few fools open your eyes,should be ashamed to call yourself a mma fan,this should not even be a debate because all that matters is shogun got robbed bottom ****** line



and reason this debate will never end is because of the name calling on both sides.

Seriously people, the only fools in this forum are the ones who call others fools for not agreeing with them. (this is directed at a lot of people on both sides)

There was never a clear winner in any of these rounds, they were all close. None of the people on this site agree on who won which rounds so stop bashing different opinions.

I owe props to whoever said this (cant remember who):

"If shogun can handle the bad decision/loss with class, then why should we all be up in arms with each other" (something like this)

For the Record- i thought shogun won 4/5 rounds



Shawn91111
10/26/09 6:17:47PM

Posted by Edwards

post deleted



lol I can smell a warning or ban a mile away
RearNakedJoke
10/26/09 6:27:24PM

i had shogun 1,2,4 and 5 for and 3 being close,i jus still 2 days later cant believe what i witness,i thought i'd never see anything has bad as bisping/hamill but the judges seem to top that,worst dec in mma history.to rob a man of his dream is jus wrong and i wont say anymore because i dont want to get kick off the site.


comparing this to bisping/hamill is just silly. that was a complete domination and a true robbery. machida/shogun was a closely competitive match. it was MUCH closer than alot of people are giving it credit for.

i think Shogun should have pushed the pace in the 5th and tried for a finish instead of listening to his corner telling him play it safe he won all 4 rounds. NEVER let it go to the judges.
UFCmma666
10/26/09 6:36:31PM

Posted by CwB


Posted by submissionartist1


you guys get lost in what Rogan says he looked like a tool at the end talking to the champ for 10 seconds then runnin to Rua to hug his nuts, and sounded like one that whole fight, the guys a Tae Kwon Do fighter and wow a slappin body kick to the left hand side of the body where ther are no organs to hurt, that only landed because thats machida open side any thai fighter will expose that, rogan should have looked up and seen the 5 knees or 3-5 punch combos that were lnded by machida






Its funny everyone keeps saying Rogans comments blinded our decision. Just listen to the crowd for an unbiased Decision. They were chanting machida early on and still booed like crazy at the UD. (and if you dont know, there is no commentating at live events)

Yes machida would rush and land 4-5 punches, but i saw 90% of those punches land on shoguns arms (which were blocking his face). Watch the flurry at the end of round three, Machida did not land one clean shot, but he did get hit with a small left hook and a big right.

This isnt Karate, its mma which uses a completely different scoring systems... and i felt Rua was more aggresive, landed more effective strikes, had octagon control, and there wasnt any grappling but the clinch game i would give to RUA.

I thought machidas punches were mostly ineffective and always led to a hard counter by RUA

I thought that Rua stalked Lyoto majority of the fight (taking the center of the ring)

I thought that machida did better in the clinch (when the clinch happened away from the cage) but Rua almost always spun lyoto's back against the cage and then landed tons of knees, while pinning and controlling lyoto against the cage. (and every time they broke from the clinch Shogun landed a shot)

Every mma site i have read after the fight thought shogun won. 90% of us on here thought shogun won. Even the Las Vegas Sunday news paper said "Machida fights a losing battle, but wins the decision"

Dont tell us we dont know anything, when you are in the minority here. We all have opinions but dont attack mine for not agreeing with you.

Edit: added some stuff



i completely agree 100 percent
Aether
10/26/09 6:47:21PM

Posted by bjj1605


Posted by Aether

yeah, I'm sure quite a few of us also watched the fight in a loud crowded bar where commentating was almost completely inaudible. I know I did. The commentating excuse is kind of ridiculous given the number of people who agree on this.



Honestly the crowded bar excuse brings up a whole different issue. I watch the fights at home with my friends and might have one or two drinks. Some one watching in a bar (and, or drinking a lot) will likely miss more than the judges sitting ring side.



That's true, but I don't drink myself, so that's not the case for me personally.
Aether
10/26/09 6:50:07PM

Posted by CwB


Posted by Edwards

post deleted



and reason this debate will never end is because of the name calling on both sides.

Seriously people, the only fools in this forum are the ones who call others fools for not agreeing with them. (this is directed at a lot of people on both sides)

There was never a clear winner in any of these rounds, they were all close. None of the people on this site agree on who won which rounds so stop bashing different opinions.

I owe props to whoever said this (cant remember who):

"If shogun can handle the bad decision/loss with class, then why should we all be up in arms with each other" (something like this)

For the Record- i thought shogun won 4/5 rounds






Props for this.

Everyone should be able to express their points without calling each other names or getting angry.
submissionartist1
10/26/09 10:05:05PM
Oh, and to submissionartist1, your spleen is on the left side of your body and you can certainly hit it.


yeah but people live without a spleen ,you look to hit the liver cause thats where the toxins are i can kick you in the kidney all day you be sore tomorrow and piss blood but its not ganna take you out of a fight ...

and because im the minority doesnt mean im wrong, the crowd means nothing at a fight because the ceer for one guy one minute and boo him the next...

and mma is not, karate but thats how the fight was fought .



Svartorm
10/27/09 12:07:27AM
You can live without eyeballs too, but getting hit there sure hurts, right?

You have no idea what you're talking about with combat and anatomy, and I'm not getting into why you'd hit certain targets, as this isn't the place. Rest assured, a hit to the spleen will ruin your day just as easily as a liver shot.
higdon10
10/27/09 12:29:37AM

Posted by Svartorm

You can live without eyeballs too, but getting hit there sure hurts, right?

You have no idea what you're talking about with combat and anatomy, and I'm not getting into why you'd hit certain targets, as this isn't the place. Rest assured, a hit to the spleen will ruin your day just as easily as a liver shot.



Couldnt have said it better.
Shawn91111
10/27/09 3:48:13AM
here we go
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