Nogueira vs Herring

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Mayo
7/8/07 11:33:17AM
What the hell happened?
Nogueira performed badly.
Herring doesn't know the meaning of "capitalizing on a situation".
What does the future have in store for Nogueira now?
What are your thoughts?
cmill21
7/8/07 11:43:57AM
I think everyone needs to realize the cage is a totally different enviroment, especially for a submission artist like Nog. He's used of having all that room not being pushed up against something and trying to work from there. I think he'll do what Mirko's doing, get training help from people that are very experienced in the cage. I'm really surprised that nog was hurt, he's ussually so damn tough.
Aether
7/8/07 11:48:07AM
Nogueira didn't really perform badly at all IMO... Heath is a good fighter and it's not the first time he's been able to fight through nog's sub attempts to a decision. I thought Minotauro did a good job on his feet and on the ground. Plenty of close sub attempts and some nice boxing other than getting caught with that one kick.

Heath is an idiot for not capitalizing though. He really should've had that fight in the bag at the end of round one. He was probably thinking "I am completely retarded" once that fight was over. Maybe he just got a little cocky after getting a few good shots in and figured he could finish him later.
opienyks
7/8/07 12:31:02PM
I thought at the time that Herring made a good move standing Nog up and not trying to GnP him. I figured if he was rocked then he either wouldn't be able to get to his feet or Herring would be able to knock him out. Herring had to be afraid of getting into a scramble situation with nog, even if he was half rocked.

The rumor is next up for Nog is Cro Cop (if he beats Congo) in November. I'd like to see Herring/Arlovski b/c I think it would be entertaining and the loser would be all but out of title contention for a very long, thinning out the title picture in the hw division. IMO
Destroyer88
7/8/07 12:51:02PM
Herring vs. Arlovski would be VERY interesting to see. Herring could test Arlovskis chin and I wouldnt call it out of this world if Herring KOed Arlovski. But Andrei would be smart to take it to the ground where Herring is at his weakest, and try for a submission.

Nog vs. Cro Cop is also very interesting espically both still being new to the ways of the Octagon. Can Nog submit Cro Cop in a cage? can Cro Cop find an angle to kick Nog? really interesting fight.
cmill21
7/8/07 12:52:28PM
I like your take. I just think it will be a bit tougher for nog to get Mirko in a good sub position like he did in the ring, if they do fight again. I agree with the arlovski/herring fight. Since herring had such a good showing(minus being stupid) and arlovski fighting like a bumb recently I think it would be a great fight and make for a title defense of the next champion after the Mirko or Nog get the belt.
Destroyer88
7/8/07 1:05:43PM
Another interesting point I must make is what if Gonzaga wins the title at UFC 74? What if Nog beats Cro Cop for the title shot? Who would win a Nog vs. Gonzaga fight? I'm pulling for Randy to win but I think Nog vs. Gonzaga has all the potentials to be a war on the ground and a war on the feet. Wherever that fight ends up, it will be very interesting. After Nog being caught with that kick from Herring, and Gonzaga clearly has better striking then Herring and better technique, could Gonzaga go for that head kick that caught Cro Cop? VERY interesting stuff.
Leland
7/8/07 1:11:15PM
When Nog was hit with that hard punch, I thought it was over, then herring stood up? what??? I'm glad it wasn't another upset. Would have been a terrible night. I think Nog fought good for being rocked like he was. It took him a while to get back from that, you could tell he was still a little staggered from it until about round 3. Great fight!
Naturaldisaster
7/8/07 1:14:59PM
i don't think nogueira performed that badly. He got a couple takedowns, and rocked Heath a few times. Big Nog just needs to learn how to use the elbows when he's in side mount or mount. But they didn't throw Big nog a can for his 1st fight either, herring is a pretty good person to fight in your 1st cage appearance
pharside
7/8/07 1:26:34PM
If it was anyone else or any other org that would have been a TKO. I just watched some IFL fights and they were calling the fight by the time a guy hit the ground. I think they let the fight go on too long and Herring is a real dumb ass for not jump on Nog and really putting him to sleep.
DJDark41
7/8/07 1:47:56PM
He got caught with a headkick, and Herring was afraid to stay on the ground because he was trying to avoid the submissions of Nogueira that he knows oh-so-well. It looked like the kick still affected him in the 2nd round, and Herring should've come out swinging instead of sitting back.
Tons33
7/8/07 2:52:14PM
Nog vs. Gonzaga is a dream matchup for me. I am a big fan of the brazilians. If Gonzage can win the belt i think he will hold it for multiple defenses. Kid is an absolute animal and he is so hungry.
CanadianCripplr
7/8/07 4:08:37PM
At the time I thought he wanted nog to stand up because he thought he couldnt. He wanted the ref to see he was wobbly.
Im thinking now that it seems a little funny he didnt go for the kill. Many conspiracies as to possible reasons. None good. Strange, imo.
DevonFoxy
7/8/07 4:19:42PM
I really dont think Herring knew the extent of how dazed Nog was and he didn't want to rush in and get submitted. i mean I'm sure herring thought he was dazed but when the ref didn't stop it I'm sure he figured he must be ok and theres no way he wants to be down there with Nog. The funny thing is if herring did go for the kill and he got submitted everyone would be calling him an idiot for rushing in too fast. so i mean it was a good fight that kick pretty much reminded me of Rashad's kick to salmon but with out the complete knock out part. Nog was dazed for sure and i honestly think Herring had no idea how bad it was for Nog as Nog has a granite chin and on top of being the magician of submission i think Herring was just trying to play it safe.
garrick
7/8/07 5:40:45PM
I think Herring got to cocky and thought if I can hit him once I can hit him again. You can't say that with such an experienced fighter as Nog. He got rocked, got his head back in the fight, and finished strong. Herring almost had the upset over a guy who beat him two times! Hat's off to both them.
hippysmacker
7/8/07 5:46:49PM

Posted by DevonFoxy

I really dont think Herring knew the extent of how dazed Nog was and he didn't want to rush in and get submitted. i mean I'm sure herring thought he was dazed but when the ref didn't stop it I'm sure he figured he must be ok and theres no way he wants to be down there with Nog. The funny thing is if herring did go for the kill and he got submitted everyone would be calling him an idiot for rushing in too fast. so i mean it was a good fight that kick pretty much reminded me of Rashad's kick to salmon but with out the complete knock out part. Nog was dazed for sure and i honestly think Herring had no idea how bad it was for Nog as Nog has a granite chin and on top of being the magician of submission i think Herring was just trying to play it safe.



I agree. Also, Nog was still trying to kick him away and defending with one hand. Most of those punches didn't land solid. He was oviously rocked and admitted it after the figh, but he dove into that weak kick. It was his own momentum that hurt him. I think Herring will be kicking himself for a long time, but hindsight is always 20/20.
Kastro
7/8/07 7:15:09PM

Posted by Aether

Nogueira didn't really perform badly at all IMO... Heath is a good fighter and it's not the first time he's been able to fight through nog's sub attempts to a decision. I thought Minotauro did a good job on his feet and on the ground. Plenty of close sub attempts and some nice boxing other than getting caught with that one kick.

Heath is an idiot for not capitalizing though. He really should've had that fight in the bag at the end of round one. He was probably thinking "I am completely retarded" once that fight was over. Maybe he just got a little cocky after getting a few good shots in and figured he could finish him later.



I second that.. I was actually impressed with Nog, he pushed the pace with a guy thats bigger then him, he displayed big improvements in his boxing and standup game, he showed that he can recover from serious damage, and he showed his good takedowns and incredible ground game..

Now that Nog has a feel for the cage, he will be only better in his next fight.. I wouldn't mind seeing a rematch with Cro Cop, Mirko was beating Nog badly the 1st time until falling victim to that slick armbar..

KillaMed87
7/8/07 7:46:34PM
I think Heath made a big mistake, he had the fight won. All he had to do was hit Nog about 4 more times and the fight was over. That wasn't too bright.
GDK
7/8/07 10:35:39PM
Herring is as tough as they come.

But he's had a lot of back luck lately
Pride stopped believing in him after a couple of Nog losses and a Fedor
Add in Mirko and you got bad luck right there.

Getting Nog so early was tough
Getting Heath so early was tough for Nog
They know each others game.

For them to show their stuff they shoulda got a couple of jobbers first.
I geuss the UFC wants them to earn their money.

The point is who ever steps in the octagon with these guys is in for the battle of his life.

Sure it was a but lack luster from the usual Nog Heath level.
But these guys could punch each other for days and neither would go down for the count.

It was a great fight
My favorite of the night

Thanks
SaevusAntistes68
7/8/07 10:44:27PM
HH should have been dropping bombs on Big Nog before the double-bounce.
richieb19
7/8/07 10:48:12PM

Posted by Destroyer88

Herring vs. Arlovski would be VERY interesting to see. Herring could test Arlovskis chin and I wouldnt call it out of this world if Herring KOed Arlovski. But Andrei would be smart to take it to the ground where Herring is at his weakest, and try for a submission.



How do you figure Herring is at his weakest on the ground? In his entire career he has only ever been submitted once, and that was by Nogueira (who is often considered as the best HW on the mat, who he has now fought 3 times) in their second fight. Herring is one of the most well rounded Heavyweight fighters in the world IMHO, however if I had to class him as a grappler or a striker, he would easily fall into the grappler pool... did you never notice that he keeps his lead hand down all the time?
three_days_of_grey
7/9/07 2:42:13AM
I am convinced that the fight would have a different conclusion under a different official. Yves Lavigne is slower to respond to the action than Big John, even when a fighter is tapping out ala Florian/Robinson. Being that as it may, it still doesn't excuse Herring for not finishing that fight. You can argue that when Nog went down Herring was unaware how hurt he actually was, but from the time Nog stood back up until 2-3 minutes into the 2nd round, it was clearly evident that he had yet to fully recover. Nog is the better fighter so why let him recover?
A losing UFC debut to Jake O'Brien followed by a decision with Brad Imes? Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't put Herring in a HW Top 10 but he has fought some of the best in MMA and should have won those fights convincingly. What happened to the Herring who put Nakao on a stretcher for a little peck on the lips during staredowns, because that Herring would have put Nog away like Gonzaga did to Cro-Cop.

-OUT-
hippysmacker
7/9/07 2:50:42AM

Posted by richieb19


Posted by Destroyer88

Herring vs. Arlovski would be VERY interesting to see. Herring could test Arlovskis chin and I wouldnt call it out of this world if Herring KOed Arlovski. But Andrei would be smart to take it to the ground where Herring is at his weakest, and try for a submission.



How do you figure Herring is at his weakest on the ground? In his entire career he has only ever been submitted once, and that was by Nogueira (who is often considered as the best HW on the mat, who he has now fought 3 times) in their second fight. Herring is one of the most well rounded Heavyweight fighters in the world IMHO, however if I had to class him as a grappler or a striker, he would easily fall into the grappler pool... did you never notice that he keeps his lead hand down all the time?



I agree. I think Herring's grappling skills are underrated. He is one of the few who is comfortable giving up his back. He usually either reverses , rolls underneath ,or out the backdoor. Against Fedor he kept trying to escape, but Fedor had already hurt him and was just too relentless to let him escape.
tomp6581
7/9/07 6:55:11AM
I think it is fair to say that the fight COULD have been stopped in the 1st after the head kick (I wouldnt go as far as "should have" simply because of how herring responded). Although Big Nog did controlled the fight from the start, i wasnt too impressed with him....I thought he looked slower than usual (maybe due to the size of the octagon compared to the ring) and looked softer than usual. I would want to see him in a coulple more fights against better fighters before he gets a title shot (only if he where to carry one winning of course)



hippysmacker
7/9/07 10:13:22PM
I will say this. I think Nog won all3 rounds. I re watched that fight today, and that head kick came with 34 seconds left in the first. I thought Nog was kicking butt up till then.
Aether
7/10/07 2:21:07AM
I think the fact that he was SO badly hurt gave him that round though. Generally I would agree that the fighter who won the longer portion should be given the round, but in an instance like this where Nog was basically saved by the bell I have to give the round to herring, simply because he was dazed to the point where if there were no breaks it seems unlikely that he'd have been able to gather his senses.
tomp6581
7/10/07 11:04:12AM

Posted by Aether

I think the fact that he was SO badly hurt gave him that round though. Generally I would agree that the fighter who won the longer portion should be given the round, but in an instance like this where Nog was basically saved by the bell I have to give the round to herring, simply because he was dazed to the point where if there were no breaks it seems unlikely that he'd have been able to gather his senses.



I agree. Dispite Big Nogs domination of the 1st round......Herring did the most damage. On another point....I always forget just how big Herring is! wasnt he 258 or something......and he isnt exacly fat either.
scoozna
7/10/07 2:35:23PM

Posted by CanadianCripplr

At the time I thought he wanted nog to stand up because he thought he couldnt. He wanted the ref to see he was wobbly.
Im thinking now that it seems a little funny he didnt go for the kill. Many conspiracies as to possible reasons. None good. Strange, imo.



That's what I saw...He was arguing with the ref at the end of the round trying to tell him he should have stopped the fight - but that was a big, dumb mistake.
thepunisher
7/10/07 3:05:14PM

Posted by tomp6581


Posted by Aether

I think the fact that he was SO badly hurt gave him that round though. Generally I would agree that the fighter who won the longer portion should be given the round, but in an instance like this where Nog was basically saved by the bell I have to give the round to herring, simply because he was dazed to the point where if there were no breaks it seems unlikely that he'd have been able to gather his senses.



I agree. Dispite Big Nogs domination of the 1st round......Herring did the most damage. On another point....I always forget just how big Herring is! wasnt he 258 or something......and he isnt exacly fat either.




He was gassed in the 3rd though
AchillesHeel
7/10/07 3:06:15PM

Posted by hippysmacker

I will say this. I think Nog won all3 rounds. I re watched that fight today, and that head kick came with 34 seconds left in the first. I thought Nog was kicking butt up till then.


I agree. My roommate argued that Herring had inflicted more punishment, but I didn't think so. Herring's only damaging shot was the one, big one. But at the end of the round, I wasn't convinced that Nogueira had taken more punishment than Herring had. Nogueira convincingly controlled the fight for 4 minutes, 30 seconds of the 1st round and Herring convincingly controlled the fight for the other 30 seconds.
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