A new Iceman vs Shogun thread-Poll

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POLL: Who wins and how
Chuck KO 56% (42)
Shogun KO 25% (19)
Shogun sub 0% (0)
Shogun Decision 9% (7)
Chuck Decision 9% (7)
hippysmacker
3/10/09 1:36:50AM
I just had to delete the last one, and it was beyond saving. . If anyone feels the need to cross the line, insult anyone for just disagreeing with them, and is unable to intelligently reason without personal attacks please don't post here. Now on to the fight discussion. Here's my opinions

Shogun- Advantages

younger, less wear and tear,Good chin - Has never been knocked out in a fight.More likely to use all the weapons at his disposal, Superior BJJ and GnP. Handspeed will be a large advantage unless he gasses.

Disadvantages

just coming off a major injury, smaller than average LHVY, gas tank has looked bad since arrival in UFC, wild striker that leaves openings , has not looked like the fighter we all thought he was in Pride since he entered the octagon.Both career losses ( that weren't directly due to a freak injury) were in a cage.


Chuck-Advantges
one punch KO power. Good takedown defense. Has not been subbed in 10 years .As awkward as his style is , his striking is far more precise than Shoguns. Will throw some straight punches. Reach. Comfortable in the octagon. Will probably have the crowd on his side. Beat Shoguns original mentor( who fights with the same wild style) Wandy convincingly.Larger and stronger. May actually be fighting someone for the first time in a while where he actually has a better gas tank .

Disadvantages- Has become a guy who is just waiting to throw his right hand. rarely throw kicks anymore , even though he was a kickboxer first. Despite a few quick take downs in the Wandy fight, still refuses to expand his arsenal. Outside body shots, have gotten him tagged repeatedly in the last 4 fights. Everyone gets flash KOed , and Chuck has always been known for having a good chin, but he got brutally KTFO in his last fight.That can alter a mnas mental state permanently sometimes. Reflexes have slowed. Has been beat to the punch a lot lately . Accumulated damage- has been through a lot of wars, and has all that piled up in a 38 year old body. Hasn't submitted anyone in 10 years, and its hard to imagine him even trying too submit Shogun.

I am sure I am leaving stuff out ,and feel free to add your own thought and make your pick in the poll, but I am only posting this to replace the thread I deleted . Seems to me Chuck has more reasons why he should win AND lose. That being said I am going to guess he starts to land straight punches down the middle , the same way he did against Wandy, and Shoguns punches come up just short. So Chuck by UD for me.
mentalcase
3/10/09 1:46:03AM
good summary

but isn't it a contradiction saying shogun has less ware and tare but he coming off a major surgery

IriShame
3/10/09 2:14:26AM
I gotta think this one comes down to Shogun's gas tank. If he gasses he gets KO'd, if he doesn't he wins with a KO or decision. I'm just not convinced he won't gas. I believe a lot of the PRIDE guys were on steroids and just aren't the same fighters they used to be. Chuck needs to push the pace in this one and eventually he'll land that big shot that has eluded him in his last few fights. I've got The Iceman, RD.3 KO.
haggiswashere
3/10/09 2:45:44AM
Dang you left out Chuck submission on the poll. I guess now i will have to pick by KO
hippysmacker
3/10/09 2:52:29AM

Posted by mentalcase

good summary

but isn't it a contradiction saying shogun has less ware and tare but he coming off a major surgery




Maybe I should haves stressed long term, damage to his body from fighting. Thats what i meant at least.
cmill21
3/10/09 3:26:31AM
If Shogun is in shape, he should win, if he's not, he should lose. Shogun has knee's, punches, kicks, and his elbows that he uses, Wand didn't use any of his other skills. I would use that fight as a good barometer to this one, also Shogun is longer then Wand, so that's something to consider. I don't know why but I really see Shogun playing a distance fight with a ton of kicks.
Aether
3/10/09 4:30:57AM
Like many other people I think it revolves entirely around how shogun's cardio is in this fight. The Shogun I saw in the first round of the Coleman fight was the same Shogun I used to see in PRIDE. People are giving him a lot of **** about bad cardio but he fought Forrest with blown ACLs and he fought Coleman after more than a year long layoff and major surgeries. I'm not sure whether he will or will not come in shape I just think people should keep things in perspective when they say he "gassed" against Forrest especially.

I'm still debating who I will pick but I think if Shogun shows up with even 5 more minutes of cardio under his belt he can put chuck away or at very least outpoint him. Whereas I see Chuck's only real chance as hoping for him to gas. I'm pretty sure he realizes all he really needs to do is pick up his cardio and he will have had a long time injury free to work on it. I'm leaning towards Shogun here.
mkiv9secsupra
3/10/09 9:50:28AM
You can add footwork to the list of advantages for chuck and patience to his disadvantages. If shogun tries to let chuck come after him he could possibly win with counters but I doubt he will abandon his bread and butter style for the polar opposite.

Chuck TKO in the 2nd possibly 3rd
Boo_Radley21
3/10/09 11:51:02AM
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Liddell by KO in either round 1 or 2.
Aaronno9
3/10/09 12:00:56PM
Chuck, round 2 k.o
State_Champ
3/10/09 2:26:16PM
Shogun better make this a good fight because I imagine that the ufc will cut him if he doesn't at least start to make his fights look professional.
jakeiceman
3/11/09 1:53:39AM
Liddell RD 2 KO/TKO

Question Liddell all you want and say your little prayers at night that the "old" Shogun is going to return, but dont be mad at the big guy in the sky when he doesnt because he will not.

Liddell may very well be past his prime but I think Tank Abbott would take out Shogun. I have not been impressed at all. I'm not anti-pride, I dont think he was on steroids, I just think he is not what everyone thinks he is.

Look for Liddell to come out focused and mean as hell. Whether Shogun gases or not, this is Liddells to win or lose, its really up to him. All of Chucks recent losses are because of mistakes he made and not really because someone was really that better than him.

Liddell needs to keep his hands up and avoid leaving himself open while throwing big shots. Hopefully he has learned from his past mistakes. If Liddell had better standup defense he would still be the champ in my opinion.

Anyway enough of me, you all know I'm biased. I cant wait for the fight.

cmill21
3/11/09 2:47:33AM

Posted by jakeiceman

Liddell RD 2 KO/TKO

Question Liddell all you want and say your little prayers at night that the "old" Shogun is going to return, but dont be mad at the big guy in the sky when he doesnt because he will not.

Liddell may very well be past his prime but I think Tank Abbott would take out Shogun. I have not been impressed at all. I'm not anti-pride, I dont think he was on steroids, I just think he is not what everyone thinks he is.

Look for Liddell to come out focused and mean as hell. Whether Shogun gases or not, this is Liddells to win or lose, its really up to him. All of Chucks recent losses are because of mistakes he made and not really because someone was really that better than him.

Liddell needs to keep his hands up and avoid leaving himself open while throwing big shots. Hopefully he has learned from his past mistakes. If Liddell had better standup defense he would still be the champ in my opinion.

Anyway enough of me, you all know I'm biased. I cant wait for the fight.




Lol I agree that Chuck might take Shogun out...but Tank, thats got to be a joke lol.
slapshot
3/11/09 2:18:52PM
Just looking at shogun’s last 2 fights and how he preformed I would have to say chuck should beat him. If Rua comes out and looks anything like what we saw against Coleman I think its just a no brainer that chuck will win however I dont think he will take chuck that lightly.

I just have a lot of questions about the concussions chuck has sustained and like I’ve said before each concussion makes it more likely he will have another one. People dog chuck all the time about his kicks but he has said himself he has knee problems that hinder him from using them, I think chucks time is quickly running out and though he can still be in the top of he division I don’t think he will be able to get his title back but he sells tickets and PPV’s.

I don’t think Rua’s BJJ or ground game will have a effect on this fight at all, I mean if you can take Chuck down you are doing better than something like 98% of his opponents and if Rua can keep him on the ground (correct me if Im wrong) then that would be the first time its ever been done against Chuck.

I would think Rua would look to clinch and use his muay thai, I don’t know that he would want a pure boxing match with Chuck. It’s not impossible that Rua would KO Liddell he dose have good power but I believe the odds are with the iceman in this one.
prozacnation1978
3/11/09 8:19:43PM
i am a big shogun fan but i do have to go with chuck
shogun just isn't the same like he was in pride
he has the mirko curse!!
jakeiceman
3/11/09 9:57:05PM

Posted by cmill21

Lol I agree that Chuck might take Shogun out...but Tank, thats got to be a joke lol.




Ha ha yeah sorry that was out of line and yes it was a joke.....Shogun would tool Tank easily.

Shogun is a stud, it will be a great fight. I'm the Liddell so I gotta stir some crap
hippysmacker
3/12/09 5:08:15AM
Tank would have his customary 30 seconds to throw a hay maker. If it didn't land, I would see a quick sub for Shogun. Still, you can never count out someone like Tank , even against Fedor If Fujita could land a wild punch on Fedor, could imagine the damage a Tank shot would do? The punchers chance is why i don't think champions should fight non-tile ,or freak show matches. When Fedor fought Hong Man Choi, the giants glancing blows left a bruise. Can you imagine if someone that freakishly strong landed a flush technically well delivered hook on Fedors' dome? I think it would have been nighty night,and I personally believe Fedor the baddest mma fighter on the planet. The mma world would be in far more chaos than GSP/Serra. At least Serra was considered a tough savvy veteran.
pv3Hpv3p
3/12/09 11:24:40AM
I see Shogun taking this one...

I know it's stupid to make excuses for a fighter, but the cardio thing to me seems excusable... He had an injured knee and couldn't run (makes it prettty tough to train cardio) against Forrest... And then I think he put a lot of pressure on himself against Coleman because of the loss to Forrest and the Hammerhouse/Chutebox fued thing...

Hopefully he comes into this bout with a clear head and is focused so we can see if he really can be the fighter he was... no excuses after this one...

It was mentioned that Shogun's a small LHW... I know he's not exactly as big as Chuck, but he's 6-1 or 6-2 and cuts to 205 so I would think he's right on par with most LH's
RhythmAndStyle
3/12/09 11:48:11AM
since his last fight with Coleman..we all agree that that Shogun's cardio has been that great..injuries and what not..but i do hope he works on that and pulls off a much needed victory..a BIG victory..i have to go with Shogun via decision...
NatedawgThaM
3/14/09 3:41:31AM
I say Shoguns starts winning with mixed striking not just punching smarter then wandy but fades late in the 2nd or 3rd and shoots that slow single leg in ends up on all fours and thats when liddel spraws and stops em.
lohmann
3/14/09 4:52:08AM
Shogun's not the only fighter that doesn't resemble himself anymore in this fight. I think there's a lot of questions to be answered regarding Liddell (in addition to the obvious ones concerning Rua's fitness and gameplanning). Liddell's suffering from a lot of the symptoms of aging: slowed speed in his footwork and punches, decreased power, and vulnerability in his chin. He hasn't knocked out anybody since Tito Ortiz in 2006 despite being put in fights against Jardine, whose chin is allegedly subpar, and Wanderlei Silva, who has been battered to a point of fragility. He was never able to act adequately offensive or defensive against Rampage, Jardine, or Evans, all of whom dictated the pace of the fight. Liddell was nearly knocked out by both Rampage and Jardine standing up, and Evans floored him; I'm not sure where Rua's power ranks, but I'm sure it's somewhere up there.

I do expect Liddell to win, but I think Rua will not be easy to handle early in the fight. Liddell will probably be able to capitalize on Rua, should he gas, and give him his first knockout loss early in the second; I do hope "the Shogun" shows up though.
tmas
3/14/09 7:40:24AM
i dont understand why anyone would pick Chuck....both guys imo are on the downfall.......the difference btw the two Shogun is young and can rebound and save his career.
scobac
3/15/09 8:55:21PM
I gotta give this one to chuck. they both are on the slide going down but chuck has the advantage of that cage being his home and the rules he has been used to. I dont think shogun is goin to be much of a threat in the states with our rules. I always thought shogun's biggest threat was stomping and kicking an oppnent on the ground and he cant do that here. I also think they both have the disadvantage of where and who they train with in prep for a fight. I respect chuck for his loyalty to hackleman and the pit but I dont think he has the partners to train with on the daily to make him more of an evolving fighter. Im not really sure about shoguns training but I think (correct me if im wrong) he and his brother opened a school (Universidade da Luta ) and they dont have to training they used to. I also think chuck needs to get back to utalizing his KICKboxing and not just a right hand, If he dose that much I think he can have another good run in him.
Jackelope
3/15/09 9:31:44PM
Some good points made by a lot of people in this thread.

I personally believe that if Shogun shows up in shape he'll take this one convincingly. As long as he's patient and uses the low and mid kick to assert his dominant striking he should be good. With Chuck you've got to stay on the outside and let your kicks do the talking. If you start chasing him and try to overextend your punches he can put almost anyone out.

The big question is- will Shogun show up in shape?
bjj1605
3/16/09 2:15:03AM
I don't see any way shogun takes this. Even the old shogun. I think he was very exciting in pride and i don't think this will be his last fight in the UFC (he's 1-1 with his loss coming to a former champ... give him a break) but he is agressive and a little wild. That will leave openings for chucks big punch. I think chuck is way past his prime and I think shogun winning would be better for the sport. Unfortunately I don't feel he can win this stylistically. Not good enough defense to stop chucks power and not strong enough wrestling to take chuck down and hold him down. Remember, chuck's only weapon now may be his big right hand. But he still has that weapon. Power is the last thing to go. Chuck by Rnd 1 KO
Aevilgar
3/19/09 2:00:20AM
Unless Shogun comes in as a wholey different fighter than fought Coleman, he is going to have a short night. Hopefully with more time gone by now he can have gotten in a little better shape, if not it is walking papers for Shogun.

However, if Shogun is in good shape, and has some fluid movement goign on, he could certainly takes it right to Chuck.

I have Chuck via 1rTKO here. I'm thinking Shogun drop his hands briefly near the end of the second, and gets plastered. He may be weathered, and I may not like him, but that doesn't change the fact he is still one hammer down ************.
ncordless
3/19/09 2:57:37AM
This fight would have meant so much more in 2005-06. Who knows anymore what either guy will bring. It will be interesting to see if Shogun has come to realize that a modern mma fighter in the US needs cardio and some sort of gameplan. If Shogun shows up in good shape and has done some sort of preparation for Chuck that will mean a lot. Alternatively, it will be interesting to see if Chuck has learned anything from his recent defeats. Namely, Chuck's striking defense needs a serious overhaul. If he has improved his d and keeps a hand up by his chin when he is throwing bombs that will be a good sign.


Two fighters who less than three years ago were considered the best have fallen quickly. Their games have started to look outdated. This fight could be the beginning of a new chapter in one or both of their careers. Or it could be the swansong of two fighters who couldn't keep up with the sport anymore. Will one or both of them show they can evolve?

Either way, it should be interesting
Pookie
3/19/09 3:25:46AM
Shogun should be winning the fight as long as he can keep his head movement going.
When he gets tired thats the first thing to go, and thats what scares me against a fighter like chuck.

Hopefully most of his ring rust wore off in the last fight, but as a shogun fan im scared.

One upside - Chuck only has a 1" reach advantage on shogun, but with his lack of defense when he strikes he may just get caught early.
cmill21
3/19/09 3:35:33AM

Posted by Pookie

One upside - Chuck only has a 1" reach advantage on shogun, but with his lack of defense when he strikes he may just get caught early.



Shogun or Chuck? Shogun tucks his shoulders pretty good. I'm sure your talking about Chuck since he has no defense lol.
EvenFlow
3/19/09 3:39:46AM
My deal with this fight is this, Liddell and Shogun havnt looked that good lately. Chuck won against Wanderlei and indeed that was a good win but hes been healthy and losing 3 outta 4 of his fights, Shogun has lost once lately and that was when he shouldnt have even been in the cage with someone the caliber of Forrest (its shoguns fault really).

If both come in shape this shouldnt even be close as Chucks' striking defense is awful and he has problems checking leg kicks. However if Chuck out cardios Shogun (which might be his plan) his overall movement is sluggish and he is easier to hit. Shogun is the much faster of the two and maybe we wont even have to see if Shogun has his cardio back

I hope no controversy comes out in this fight, I really do like both of these guys and it kinda pains me to see it happen a little too late like the Wanderlei fight.
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