New Guys. JUST TAP!

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madmarck
11/4/07 11:35:50AM
I wish guys who are new to BJJ would tap. At a pratice there is no point in being a hero through a Triangle.
I freerolled with this guy at the end of pratice yesterday. Much smaller and a bit weaker. Not bragging but i owned him going from trainistion to transition.

Inbetween scrambles i got top position every time i regaular swept him from the bottom. Basically i was owning him. On 2 occasions i had him in kneebars (heel under armpit both times) and he didnt tap i actually leet go adn went to half gaurd told him off.
He still wouldnt listen when i had him in a triangle He refuesed to tap so i switched to a armbar eventually he tapped from it.

Not to mention earlier int he pratice we had been practiing Rear naked chokes. I had his right arm trapped with my right leg and even when i heard him gugrel he didnt tap. i let him go and he immedialty rolled over in my guard thinking he was reversing.

Kids gotta learn. First timers are always told to tap often at pratice. But why dont some learn?
Jackelope
11/4/07 3:03:07PM
I never had that kind of pride like some idiots do. I always tell people that there's no point in getting injured during practice. I say just give em what they ask for, and they'll learn.
Svartorm
11/4/07 3:47:06PM
Yeah, I hate that as well. I usually tell someone before they ever roll that they're going to tap half a million times in their life, and its not worth getting injured over.
Mastodon2
11/5/07 6:44:19AM
Not having done Jiu-jitsu I dont know the typical characters of a Jiu-jitsu gym, but whenever I was trapped with bno way out in Judo I just tapped. No shame in it!

I suppose the equivilant in Muay Thai or other hard striking sports (boxing, kickboxing, not Karate, TKD or anything like that) is the guy in sparring who you are dominating, so he gets frustrated and starts going harder and harder, so you think he is game and you start going harder, except he doesnt quite get that sparring isnt a fight, and is trying to kill you, and while you could take this kid out with one proper punch at any time, you can't because he is still green and doesnt have discipline yet and you will look like a bully if you try to teach him a lessoin. I hate guys like that. It should be stressed before everyone starts sparring, that it is practice and not a fight, and that you only hit as hard as you want to get hit. Personally, I'm game, and there are some guys in my gym that spar quite lightly, whereas I like to go quite hard with the other guys that like to really feel the heat, but I respect the guys who dont like it so hard, and I know that even when you are digging in a bit, you do it with mutual agreement from your sparring partner and you don't hit harder out of frustration.

Basically what it comes down to is gym etiquette, these kids dont know the ropes, and are still high and mighty thinking they can stop anyone, truth is, they have a lot to learn. I suppose its typical male pride that they dont want to feel like they are losing, even to someone more experienced or more skilled than themselves. Some guys need to learn to put that stuff in their locker with everything else when they enter the gym.
jomatty
11/5/07 9:44:51AM
not be baby!!!! you get me in any sort of a arm bar/lock or especially anything that has to do with bad knees and its tappy tap in a relative hurry. chokes and what not ill resist if i think i have some reasonable chance of getting out but i have nothing to prove and stay humble (helps that there is not really anything to make me not humble). im not gonna blow my knee out trying to be a hero while rolling. i hate it when other people are resistant to tapping though. i usually just let it go, because the last thing i want to do is break someones arm or something when rolling. more experienced guys and new guys seem to both have some issues with this. the new guys because of a misunderstanding of what being tough is (and not knowing any better) and some of the better guys because they can mistakenly think there is some shame in getting tapped by someone not as good as them.
atlas777
11/5/07 10:13:13AM
I dont understand why some people have to much pride to tap, if you are in a bad positionin practice just tap dont go until you get hurt.
Salty
11/5/07 12:08:03PM
I learned the hard way, I tried fighting out of an armbar when I first started doing Ju-Jitsu not because I have to much pride to tap or anything like that, it was to see if I could actually get myself out of it ended up messing my arm up to the point i had to take some time off to let it heal. I still try to fight my way out of any submission i get put in at practice, but not to the extent where I end up causing harm to myself.
fedorwins1
11/5/07 12:52:14PM
There was this new guy who was a wrestler before he came there and I had a standing guillotine and I pulled guard and instead of tapping he decides, hey maybe if I slam this guy on his head he'll let go! I was so mad I almost started swinging. New guys also seem to crank a sub as hard as they can when they get one in too.
Rush
11/5/07 1:04:31PM
My rule for arm bars is, if I can defend for a 2 or 3-count, I can probably defend indefinitely, so I'll count to 2 or 3 and then restart. I need to practice other things, like not getting into that position, rather than defending once I am in it.

Chokes, well, I can't remember the last time someone got me in a choke.

Leg locks, I will tap right away. There is a reason they don't do them in the Gracie academy (according to Royce) until black belt. It is way too easy to get injured with a leg lock.

Besides, I am more of a drill kind of a guy rather than free rolling. Personally I think letting new people free roll is a mistake and only lets them develop bad habits.


Oh yeah, and I also think this problem starts with the instructor. They should be stressing this issue all the time.
szucconi
11/5/07 1:42:15PM
as a new guy to BJJ and a former wrestler I have thought about this a lot. I don't have a problem tapping. Its not an ego thing. I know I am going to tap a lot. I am fine with that. When ever someone puts me in an arm bar (happens a lot) I panic, but that doesn't include tapping right away. I feel like I need to be comfortable and relaxed in so I can learn to work out of bad position. This is truer for chokes. I don't want to tap and reset because I want to at least try to work out. At the same time I crank subs slowly and try to tighten them up while I let the other guy try to work out of them so he can gain a feel for that position and I don’t hurt him. I do tap when its causing me pain or it so tight that its to late. One guy asked me how long I had been coming to class before we rolled and I told him it was my fourth class. He asked if I wanted to go 70%. I answered “no, just punish me”. I am not trying to be tough; I am just trying to learn. I realize that BJJ is different then wrestling, but that is how I became comfortable in wrestling. Am I being a jerk?
fullerene
11/5/07 2:59:59PM
It's OK to sometimes work on staying calm--particularly with chokes--but remember that you're rolling with someone else and you're both trying to learn. A difference between wrestling and BJJ is in wrestling you can always see for yourself if your technique is working while you're not always sure if a sub is exactly right or not. Tapping when the other guy gets it right lets him know that he performed the technique right. If someone is putting an armbar or and they're allowing the arm to bend then there's no reason to tap, but when they straighten in out and get their hips underneath the elbow then tapping does more than just protect your arm it also tells them "that last adjustment put it where it's supposed to be"
madmarck
11/6/07 10:08:37AM

Posted by Rush

My rule for arm bars is, if I can defend for a 2 or 3-count, I can probably defend indefinitely, so I'll count to 2 or 3 and then restart. I need to practice other things, like not getting into that position, rather than defending once I am in it.

Chokes, well, I can't remember the last time someone got me in a choke.

Leg locks, I will tap right away. There is a reason they don't do them in the Gracie academy (according to Royce) until black belt. It is way too easy to get injured with a leg lock.

Besides, I am more of a drill kind of a guy rather than free rolling. Personally I think letting new people free roll is a mistake and only lets them develop bad habits.


Oh yeah, and I also think this problem starts with the instructor. They should be stressing this issue all the time.



I mean dont tap as soon as a guy gets you in a armbar. But personally if its fully extended and i know im ****** i tap.
But if i can compress the guy and spin out of it i do.

There is a fine line between fighting out of moves and being stupid.
I just wish these new guys would realize that pain doesnt equal tough.
Rush
11/6/07 5:09:05PM

Posted by madmarck

I mean dont tap as soon as a guy gets you in a armbar. But personally if its fully extended and i know im ****** i tap.
But if i can compress the guy and spin out of it i do.





But new people don't always (or hardly ever) know the proper way to spin out and you can easily injure your arm, leg or whatever trying to spin out of a lock the incorrect way.

Again, this is why I personally would not have new students (if I were teaching) doing a lot (if any) free rolling.
Mitchell740
11/6/07 11:04:49PM

Posted by Rush


Posted by madmarck

I mean dont tap as soon as a guy gets you in a armbar. But personally if its fully extended and i know im ****** i tap.
But if i can compress the guy and spin out of it i do.





But new people don't always (or hardly ever) know the proper way to spin out and you can easily injure your arm, leg or whatever trying to spin out of a lock the incorrect way.

Again, this is why I personally would not have new students (if I were teaching) doing a lot (if any) free rolling.



When I am training with my friends I will tap, mostly because it becomes a stalemate, I am hard to put to sleep or put into enough pain to tap, but if ssomeone has a gullitinein on me it's just going nowhere. If I am submissin wresstling random kids, which I am undefeated in, I will never tap.

I did once submissin wrestle a kid 50lbs heavier, I had wrestled people his size before, and I had him in a tighht RNC for about 45 seconds and he wouldn't tap until he barely had the strength left to.
jomatty
11/7/07 2:18:41AM
the problem with not letting new students free roll is that free rolling is the interesting part for new students. this is true for me. i look forward to free rolling thorughout the entire class. in judo i look forward to the ground ne waza. it may not be the best way to learn if you have someone who is serious and commited and an academy that isnt at all pressed for clients but few instructors are in that posisition. it seems better to me to have people keep coming back, rather than just quit, which i think a much higher % would do if there was no free rolling, which lets face it is fun...
madmarck
11/7/07 2:59:46PM

Posted by jomatty

the problem with not letting new students free roll is that free rolling is the interesting part for new students. this is true for me. i look forward to free rolling thorughout the entire class. in judo i look forward to the ground ne waza. it may not be the best way to learn if you have someone who is serious and commited and an academy that isnt at all pressed for clients but few instructors are in that posisition. it seems better to me to have people keep coming back, rather than just quit, which i think a much higher % would do if there was no free rolling, which lets face it is fun...


Our freeroll is bascially the last 15mins of pratice the instrutor lets the mats go free and he will show someone a move if they want.
I like the freeroll at the end becasue i like to pratice what i have learned right after.

The guy i was freerolling with was one i ahd be rollign with all pratice so i figured i would ask him to roll.
I never used my strength agaiisnt this guy i more or less just used technique.
905010
11/18/07 6:32:19PM
i don't tap unless somin could break, or i can't breath. simple as that.
fedorwins1
11/18/07 6:36:01PM

Posted by 905010

i don't tap unless somin could break, or i can't breath. simple as that.



Have fun in heelhooks and toeholds.....
madmarck
11/19/07 2:58:09PM

Posted by 905010

i don't tap unless somin could break, or i can't breath. simple as that.


Yeah you must not train either.
Same dude as i mentioned in the first post i rolled withagain.
This time i caught im ain a gi choke from the mount, just the simply hands under oppostie sides of the collar and twist in. We had been doing it that day at pratice. I twisted my wrist and heard him gugrel and i told him you gotta tap sometime. He tried to sweep so i let him, (just so i could pratice sweeping to the mount from that position) but changed my mind and just pulled him down, he really didnt have a answer and eventually tapped. but thats one of my new favourite chokes from the bottom.
bayonetxwork
11/19/07 3:52:16PM

Posted by Mitchell740
When I am training with my friends I will tap, mostly because it becomes a stalemate, I am hard to put to sleep or put into enough pain to tap, but if ssomeone has a gullitinein on me it's just going nowhere. If I am submissin wresstling random kids, which I am undefeated in, I will never tap.

I did once submissin wrestle a kid 50lbs heavier, I had wrestled people his size before, and I had him in a tighht RNC for about 45 seconds and he wouldn't tap until he barely had the strength left to.



Did you choke out a polar bear too?
paddy260
11/19/07 7:37:47PM
my thing is you don t tap unless whatever hold u r in and you don t tap it will keep you out of action
jiujitsufreak74
11/19/07 7:49:44PM
i hate when people don't tap, then sweep you when you let go and think they they have some skill. it pisses me off, especially when they say afterwards that i had it in tight, but no tight enough. i always say, well next time i won't let go and we'll see how happy you are after the fact ***hole.

ill be honest though, against some of my "rivals" if you would, i sometimes try my hardest not to tap. this one kid and i have a competition to see who can tap the other out the most times. he is unfortunately winning by 2, and we usually go to stalemates even though he is bigger and stronger. one time he had me in a knee bar and i refused to tap. at this point we don't let go on each other unless the other taps since we both know our bodies' limits and i was just barely able to slip out. after the fact, however, my knee hurt like a bitch and i regret not tapping and suggest to all guys in bjj to swallow your pride and just tap. its only practice so what are you really accomplishing by not tapping? who are you trying to impress?
ncordless
11/20/07 1:44:03AM
At the place where I have trained BJJ, both the instructors are brazillian. One speaks a little english and the other does not. There can be a little bit of a communication breakdown sometimes, especially with the new guys. Those of us who have been there for a while make sure that the new students know to tap. In fact, when I meet a new guy, I usually say something like "Hi, glad to have you here. If you have any questions just ask and no matter what, TAP when you are in trouble." The instructors keep a good eye on things and if they see someone in trouble and not tapping they stop the action and do there best to explain why.
madmarck
11/20/07 12:45:26PM
yeah our insturters and all the senior guys told us first day just tapout.
You dont impress anyone by getting your arm broken by another white belt.

Personally i dont get caught in many armbars and stuff i try to spin out of them if they are in deep and i cant stack the guy.

But when a triangle or RNC is in i fight it for a bit but when i feel it startin to hurt tap.
derekcalado
11/22/07 10:46:33AM
i myself dont try to be a hero but some of the other kids i train with wont tap either. after a while i think they learn their lesson, b/c of how ******* sore theyll be later on. practice is all about reps and learning from ur mistakes kids like that wont last long. but u have to give him credit he's gotta be tough sob
905010
11/25/07 2:44:39PM
I do train in bjj, and i can tell when i can't breath or something is gonna break, so like i said i tap out, I don't know any bjj classes that teach toeholds and small joint manipulations.
KeNn
11/25/07 10:56:56PM
practicing technique I tap, while rolling i try to with stand the best I can.

but if he's got it in deep i'll tap.
Believe-in-judo81
11/26/07 7:30:48AM
Nothing reall to add, just want to enforce that in a gym full of your friends and training partners there's no reason to try and be the hard, macho fellow who isn't going to tap to save his life. That attitude is ridiculous, your main objective should be to just tap. Why, so you can rolling without injuries, and keep improving your game without that unessary setback. Also there is the time factor, if you tap as soon as something is secure, boom that's it. You see what you did wrong, the got the move, and you can work on something else and get more out of your lessons. Face it new guys, it doesn't make sense to pull this stuff with your training partners. Just tap, work on for next time, and keep going, instead of risking that injury setback nobody wants.
Vendetta
12/12/07 3:14:41PM
If somebody doesn't tap to a choke, put them to sleep. As far as limb submissions, I just let them go and transition to something else. No sense in seriously injuring a training partner. Those guys are your family.
bayonetxwork
12/12/07 4:29:13PM

Posted by Vendetta

If somebody doesn't tap to a choke, put them to sleep. As far as limb submissions, I just let them go and transition to something else. No sense in seriously injuring a training partner. Those guys are your family.



That is the exact same reason why you shouldn't put them to sleep...That attitude is seriously retarded and completely careless for you're training partners. Just because they won't tap, be the bigger man, and transition.
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