MMAPlayground Rankings discussion

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DCBooks
2/17/07 4:41:00PM

Posted by MMA

[

So are you saying that Liddell is definitely better than Rua? There is always a subjective aspect to rankings (particularly for P4P rankings).



Not at all. I'm saying we won't know until they fight. Until then we should only rank based on actual achievements, not what you think could happen.

You might think Brandon Vera is the next big thing, but based on what he's achieved you shouldn't rank him ahead of Sylvia.

Chuck's beaten Couture when he was arguably ranked #1 or 2, Tito while he was top 5, Babalu who's top 10 as well.

Since 2004 Shoguns beaten Jackson (top ten?) Arona(top ten) and lil Nog(top ten), but a bunch of other good competition, but non-ranked fighters in 2006. That and a loss to Coleman (Fluke at another weight-class) isn't an equal achievement to Chuck's.

So while I might think Wand and Shogun would beat Chuck, I can't rank them higher.
shawneth
2/17/07 6:45:18PM

Posted by dragomort

Also, Hunt should be over AA, Lindland over Hendo and Shaolin should be ranked quite a bit higher as a LW. Other than that it's pretty good and better than most lists.




Well, right there your just kinda givin your opininon... which is kinda the point off the ranking system.... hmmm, it would seem the vast majority of people disagree with you.
Betro
2/19/07 3:48:31AM

Posted by DCBooks


Posted by MMA

[

So are you saying that Liddell is definitely better than Rua? There is always a subjective aspect to rankings (particularly for P4P rankings).



Not at all. I'm saying we won't know until they fight. Until then we should only rank based on actual achievements, not what you think could happen.

You might think Brandon Vera is the next big thing, but based on what he's achieved you shouldn't rank him ahead of Sylvia.

Chuck's beaten Couture when he was arguably ranked #1 or 2, Tito while he was top 5, Babalu who's top 10 as well.

Since 2004 Shoguns beaten Jackson (top ten?) Arona(top ten) and lil Nog(top ten), but a bunch of other good competition, but non-ranked fighters in 2006. That and a loss to Coleman (Fluke at another weight-class) isn't an equal achievement to Chuck's.

So while I might think Wand and Shogun would beat Chuck, I can't rank them higher.



To be fair Shogun's win over Arona was right after Arona beat Wand, which made Arona top 2. While I agree exactly with what your'e saying, I'm just trying to be fair on both sides.
Snacks
2/19/07 4:18:34AM
These lists are a joke.

Kawajiri at 7? Utter ******* atrocity, nevermind Penn being ranked at lightweight.
hippysmacker
2/19/07 10:59:53AM
I have to say the one thing that my mind has been changed about was Penn at lightweight, or anyone being ranked at a weight they don't fight at for a long period of time. Nate22 made a good point to me that since I will remove Lindland from my top middleweight's spot if he doesn't fight at that weight in the next 6 months, that I shouldn't rank someone in a weight that hasn't fought at that weight in over 3 years. Still, I think that he will be the best lightweight in the world if he stays at that weight. Either way, everybody's got opinions, and there is no way to prove my way is the right one. Everybody has a little bit different way of picking , it's no big deal. Somebody made the point in Shogun's favor over Liddell was his win over Rampage( who Chuck Lost too). Well Shogun lost to Babalu 2 months before Chuck lost to Rampage. We all know Chuck beat Babalu twice. Does that mean Chuck is better than Shogun? NO . I always try to take into account that fighter's improve and fade. Some think Chuck's prime is gone, some think he's in it now, and some may even think he's getting even better. Styles make fight's , some people will match up better against certain fighter's and not as well against other's .All subjective, personal opinion, that can't be proven. A fact is saying gravity is real, it can be proven. All this is just for fun people. Please remember that and enjoy these discussions in a less personal way. We all love MMA, that should be enough to keep people from insulting eachother just because they disagree with eachother.
"Can't we all just get along "
madmarck
2/19/07 1:28:43PM
I personally think the Rankings are a really good idea. If you don't like them or think they are flawed then fine dont check em. Yes this is peoples personal opinions but isnt it really hard to rank fighters otherwise?
The only real way to decide if Shogun> Chuck> Wand is to have em all fight each other. But thats not gonna happen any time soon so who knows. Plus MMAth has been proven wrong time and time again (not the Mod), so how do we rank em? Its hard i personally just like to look at my own rankings and change them around has fights happen.
In the end this ranking system isnt gonna destroy the universe. It just shows how mma fans think fighters should be ranked. Rather then having to check on a list created by a Staff of 4-5 people.
madmarck
2/19/07 1:30:04PM

"Can't we all just get along "


Cmon Hippysmacker. Where would the fun be in that?
hippysmacker
2/19/07 1:32:40PM

Posted by madmarck


"Can't we all just get along "


Cmon Hippysmacker. Where would the fun be in that?


It would make being a mod a lot less time consuming
MMA
2/19/07 1:43:01PM

Posted by OB_Juan

I'm not speaking for DCBooks, but IMO you can't base rankings on what you THINK would happen because as soon as you do you get stuff like Randleman KOing Cro Cop or Edwards armbarring Mishima. There's too many variables.

Until they were actually to fight noone can say for sure who is better. It's just not possible, that's why their recent accomplishments need to be the main factor in ranking.

One thing I will say that Shogun has in his favor is a win over Rampage. Now it becomes a matter of how much you weigh fights from 2 or 3 yrs ago compared to in the last 12 - 18 months or so.




Posted by DCBooks

Not at all. I'm saying we won't know until they fight. Until then we should only rank based on actual achievements, not what you think could happen.

You might think Brandon Vera is the next big thing, but based on what he's achieved you shouldn't rank him ahead of Sylvia.

Chuck's beaten Couture when he was arguably ranked #1 or 2, Tito while he was top 5, Babalu who's top 10 as well.

Since 2004 Shoguns beaten Jackson (top ten?) Arona(top ten) and lil Nog(top ten), but a bunch of other good competition, but non-ranked fighters in 2006. That and a loss to Coleman (Fluke at another weight-class) isn't an equal achievement to Chuck's.

So while I might think Wand and Shogun would beat Chuck, I can't rank them higher.


I am basing it on the fighter's performance and their competition.

Liddell's past fights have been against Ortiz, Couture, Sobral, and Horn.

Ortiz: Let's face it, most fans praise Ortiz for his controversial acts and the hype that he builds. Most of the educated MMA fans knew that Liddell was going to beat Ortiz. Even though he is ranked high on MMA Weekly, I hardly consider him to be a top fighter. Ortiz was and still is scared of Liddell.

Couture: Couture is a great fighter, but unfortunately, he was past his prime when he fought Liddell. It was not the same Couture who beat Liddell on the stand-up and then went on to spank Ortiz. Couture is not going to beat Sylvia either.

Sobral: Although Sobral is an excellent grappler, he was unable to take down Liddell. His game plan of chasing Liddell around the octagon till he got KTFO was plain stupid.

Horn: Hmm, I guess you could argue either way here. Horn was at or past his prime during this point of his career. This was a good fight and Horn took Liddell to the distance, but it was still the typical grappler vs. striker styles match-up.

Although Liddell's wins have been impressive and they are against "top-ranked" fighters. All of his fights were against grapplers. This may not be highly relevant, but if you look at his fights in PRIDE against Mezger and Overeem, he was clearly losing the stand-up until he connected with his looping punch. Liddell finally met his match against Jackson, who possess good striking skills, a granite chin, and powerful slams.

I am not taking anything away from Liddell, he is definitely ranked top 3 in the world. I just feel that Rua has Liddell's number if they fought. Rua is a more technical fighter than Liddell and is a very dangerous striker with also a good ground game.

Liddell has just been untested lately in the stand-up so everyone thinks he is invincible, but if you place a striker in front of him, he may have a lot of problems. Again, I am not saying Liddell sucks, it is amazing how he is able to be "one-dimensional" and still continue to win. His game plan is always the same for every fight, sprawl and KO your opponent.

The top 3 light heavyweights are just so close together, there is no way you can definitely state one as being better than the other. My order of ranking was Rua > Liddell > Silva, yours could be different, but you cannot say that mine is wrong.
madmarck
2/19/07 1:47:33PM

Posted by hippysmacker


Posted by madmarck


"Can't we all just get along "


Cmon Hippysmacker. Where would the fun be in that?


It would make being a mod a lot less time consuming


But much duller i assume. Ever just want to body slam a poster? I know i do.
OB_Juan
2/19/07 3:46:10PM
I don't think divisional rankings should be as subjective as a lot of people are making it out to be. You can objectively look at a fighter's oppostion and recent performances w/in a div and come to a reasonable conclusion as to where they stand. People are taking away any possible objectivity by methodologies such as basing ranks on who you THINK would win in a fight. That's about as flawed of logic as you could use. Recent accomplishments should be the primary basis for compiling rankings.

Do I think BJ could probably beat any other LW fighter on the planet? Yeah, most likely. However, because I THINK he could it shouldn't take away from fighters that have continually showed their medal against top competition. IMO ranking Penn as the top LW is a complete insult to guys like Gomi, Melendez, Aoki, Kawajiri, Mach, Kid, Shaolin, Ishida, JZ, etc that have been staying active IN the div and taking out other good LWs.

I happen to think Nastula would probably beat most of the top 10 ranked HWs. However, I cannot in good conscience give him any such ranking based off of his record despite having put up tough fights vs top competition. IMO that's about the same as saying Penn should be ranked at WW because he only lost to the 2 top guys. So what if he hasn't had a win there sonce 2004?

Yes, he has the POTENTIAL to beat many or all of the other ranked WWs, but he hasn't proven it. There's a chance he could gas vs a fighter the likes of Hironaka and Hiro pulls off the upset or Fitch could catch him w/ a lucky punch and get a KO. Despite the likelihood of these things happening, they are very possible. Once again I will use the example of Randleman KOing Mirko as proof.

P4P rankings.... yeah, those are TOTALLY subjective.


AND PLEASE DO NOT DELETE THIS POST AS IT SHOULD SPEAK FOR ITSELF IN THAT I HAVE PUT SOME TIME AND THOUGHT INTO IT.
OB_Juan
2/19/07 4:19:10PM

Posted by madmarck

I personally think the Rankings are a really good idea. If you don't like them or think they are flawed then fine dont check em. Yes this is peoples personal opinions but isnt it really hard to rank fighters otherwise?
The only real way to decide if Shogun> Chuck> Wand is to have em all fight each other. But thats not gonna happen any time soon so who knows. Plus MMAth has been proven wrong time and time again (not the Mod), so how do we rank em? Its hard i personally just like to look at my own rankings and change them around has fights happen.
In the end this ranking system isnt gonna destroy the universe. It just shows how mma fans think fighters should be ranked. Rather then having to check on a list created by a Staff of 4-5 people.



I don't think it's really all that difficult. Chuck has finished ranked opponents. The only remotely ranked opponent Shogun has fought in the last year and a half was Nakamura in a less than stellar performance for a decision. Wand hasn't even fought another LHW for over a year and it was a decision to tie him up w/ Arona (1-1).

It's really quite simple, Chuck > Shogun > Wand (based off of who they beat recently and how they beat them).

Now then, as I also stated earlier, I do happen to like Shogun more than Chuck and think he would probably win if they were to fight. Butin reality, that hasnothing to do w/ the topic at hand.
unchillphil
2/19/07 5:19:22PM
Kid #9 in the P4P list is a disgrace. He should be at least top 5, if not #1.
OB_Juan
2/19/07 5:56:38PM

Posted by unchillphil

Kid #9 in the P4P list is a disgrace. He should be at least top 5, if not #1.



Numero uno is a stretch IMO but I have no prob w/ top 5-ish. I'd have to give GSP and Fedor the top 2. I cannot be swayed from those 2. After that you get guys like Aoki or Melendez who are both winning fights against top fighters basicly in 2 different divs. Actually, those are the only guys that come to mind who should be ahead of him. In fact I beleive I have Kid at #5 after those fighters.

The only thing going against Kid is his level of competition the past 12 or 14 months. That and the fact he's not in Pride or the UFC so many of the noobs here probbaly don't even know who he is. I'm going to guess his 9th place ranking is due to more experienced posters putting him where he deserves and newbies not recogniozing him at all which averages out to the bottom of thetop 10. But yes, I fully agree, 9th is pretty bad.
Betro
2/20/07 8:46:11PM
"Another thread got me thinking about this and I’ve always been interested/tried to keep up with pfp rankings so here are mine, tell me what you think.

1. George St. Pierre - Scored a dominant victory over former top 2 pfp fighter matt Hughes which is enough to put clearly put him ahead of Fedor (the man previously contending with Hughes for the top spot in my mind). Fedor is impressive in many ways but he has never fought another fighter near the top 5 pfp (weak hw division) much less scored a dominating victory over one. With his dominating victory over Hughes he avenges his only loss, and has nearly cleared out one of, if not the strongest, divisions in MMA with wins over Karo, BJ Penn, Trigg, Sherk, and Miller. GSP has a very well rounded game and is an explosive athlete with skills that would translate well to any weight class.

2. Fedor Emelianenko - Has dominated the hw division since beating the then #1 hw Nogueira, and looked nearly invincible doing it. Convincingly beat Nogueira again and the other top contender in the division, Crocop. Very well rounded and highly skilled in all areas, which is very rare for a hw. Very quick and explosive, with excellent cardio which is also rare at hw.

3. Matt Hughes - Before his loss to St. Pierre was probably #1 pfp in the world. Had a strangle hold over the division until his rematch with St. Pierre, during which he had wins over Penn, St. Pierre, Trigg, Sherk, Sakurai, Newton, Riggs, Verissimo. Very strong wrestler with a very effective gnp and submission game and improving striking. Until his loss to St. Pierre, he seemed invincible, always found a way to win, and had all the intangibles.

4. Shinichi "BJ" Kojima - Just scored a first round submission victory over then top 5 pfp fighter Mamoru Yamaguchi who he had previously fought to a draw with. Holds another dominating victory over a top 5 123 lb fighter in Setsu Iguchi. Will be fighting another top 5 123 pounder in Yasuhiro Urushitani whom he formerly drew with, in a fight where he could further solidify is pfp rank or possibly move further up. Fights in a weight class that is very talented at the top and has a very well rounded game. Excellent wrestler with very good boxing skills. Has very good guard passing skills and has a tendency of chocking out opponents including Mamura, who was thought to have some of the best submission defense in the world.

5. Gilbert Melendez - An undefeated fighter and former top 5 fw (wins over Sato, Uematsu, and Takaya) and now a top 5 lw after beating powerhouse Tatsuya Kawajiri (also lw victories over Obiya and Guia). There are very few fighters in MMA history who have achieved top 5 rankings in multiple weight classes and he is one of them, and has done so early in his career. Has yet to taste defeat, though his bout with Kawajiri was hotly contested. Relentless fighter who always pushes the pace wearing his opponents out. Very good wrestler and has acquired very strong boxing skills. Excellent submission defense as well.

6. Shinya Aoki - Is currently competing at two weight classes lw and ww, the two strongest divisions in MMA. Is a top 5 ww with wins over Wisniewski, Hironaka, and Kikuchi. Is a top 10 lw with wins over Black and Hansen. Possibly the most impressive submission game in MMA, and excellent judo throws as well. Has striking well suited to his tall frame and is effective at getting him to the clinch to set up takedowns and throws.

7. Takanori Gomi - Outside his two bouts with Aurelio which he split 1-1, he has absolutely dominated some of the best lws in the world including Kawajiri, Ishida, and Sakurai who were all top 5 lws when Gomi demolished them. Currently the #1 in the world in the most competitive, deepest division in MMA. Iron chin and excellent boxing with big time power. Has a relentless aggressive style and is a great finisher. Has shown vulnerability off his back.

8. Mamoru Yamaguchi - Formally top 5 pfp before being choked out by BJ. Has quality wins in three weight classes, 123, 132, and 143. Was formerly shooto champion at 123 and 132. Holds wins over Baret Yoshida, Yasuhiro Urushitani, Junji Ikoma, Setsu Iguchi, among others. Excellent and well rounded striking game. Lethal from the clinch and outside and uses a large variety of strikes. Very good escape ability and submission defense. Also has a very good wrestling.

9. Chuck Liddell - The #1 lhw in the world is on a very impressive run with dominating knock out wins over Couture, Ortiz and Babalu. Very effective striking with massive ko power. Excellent takedown defense as well. Will soon get a chance to avenge his only unavenged loss vs Rampage.

10 . Akitoshi Hokazono - The #1 132 pounder in the world. Though he fights in one of the weaker divisions in MMA he has yet to be defeated and holds a number of impressive victories including Osawa x2, Galvao, and Mikami. Hopefully will fight Ryota Matsune soon to solidify his claim as the undisputed #1 fighter at 132 lbs. Very strong fighter with a well rounded sill set.



Now the 2 big omissions everyone will notice are BJ Penn and Kid, who are generally considered top pfp fighters. When i looked at what they had accomplished both of there pfp achievements seemed much less material and solid than other fighters.

Penn is three years removed from his impressive 3 weight class run with Gomi, Hughes, and Rodrigo. He is 1-3 since then with his only win being over and ancient Renzo Graicie. You could say his losses were vs two top 5 pfp fighters both 1 weight class above his natural weight, and a lhw. All these fights were competitive as well. But how much credit do you give a guy for almost beating really good fighters. If you lack a single quality win in the past 2 1/2 years you don’t stack up very well to other top 10 pfp fighters. Penn has all the potential and skills to re-ascend the rankings to where he once stood, and will get a chance with his return to lw in the UFC.

Kid Yamamoto is an amazing fighter. he could fight at 132 but has fought at 143 and 154 and only suffered one loss. but how much credit can you give someone for where they could be fighting? He is four years removed from his run to being a top 2 fw, and no matter how impressive it is that he still wins at lw he has never beaten a top 10 fighter at that weight. He has an amazing skill set and is and incredible athlete who i would take in a fight over anyone at 132 or 143, but he has to get away from k1 and start fighting serious competition and fight more regularly for me to rank him pfp again."

Slothman's post over at BK. He had a good reason to keep Kid out.
nate22
2/20/07 8:49:51PM
+1 for making this our new top ten pfp rankings using this as explanation.
Snacks
2/20/07 8:53:25PM
Slothman can go **** himself.

RYOTA "SHOOTO JUNKIE" MATSUNE 4 LYFE!!!!!!
Betro
2/20/07 8:56:16PM
"THE" beesh
Snacks
2/20/07 9:02:42PM
THE, BITCH!

roadking95th
2/22/07 12:34:32AM
All rankings are subjective! A lot of top fighters do not fight each other. When all the fighters fight each other, then we can be objective. Well, at least after we discern fluke wins and losses, judging variables, style match-ups, etc...Wait, we are being subjective again.
OB_Juan
2/22/07 2:18:40AM

Posted by roadking95th

All rankings are subjective! A lot of top fighters do not fight each other. When all the fighters fight each other, then we can be objective. Well, at least after we discern fluke wins and losses, judging variables, style match-ups, etc...Wait, we are being subjective again.



Yes, there will always be a matter of subjectivity in rankings, but objectivity primarily in wt classes is quite possible if you look at a fighter's recent wins and losses and performances in a div.

My method (objective): Penn hasn't even competed at LW since 2003 therefore he is not ranked.

Your method (subjective): you THINK Penn could probably beat any other LW therefore he gets ranked at #1.


Honestly, I do agree that BJ would most likely beat any LW if they were to fight. However, based on recent accomplishments, he hasn't actually PROVED himself in the LW div for years. I just have a serious problem basing divisional rankings on a fighter's potential.
SICKRICK
2/22/07 7:26:54AM
rankings are a great idea, we need them
Drudinh
4/18/10 5:19:58AM
Adding fighters to rankings? What's up with that? That would be somewhat nice to be able to do outside of "popular fighters."
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