MMAPlayground Rankings discussion

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OB_Juan
2/16/07 7:54:39PM
They're up. Not too bad overall IMO.

I do have 1 gripe though and it's a HUGE one. Penn at #4 WW and freakin #6 LW even though he hasn't had a win in either div for 3 yrs or better. WTF!? It's not like either div is lacking in talent and people didn't have many choices. He hasn't even fukn COMPETED at LW since 2003 for chrissakes!

I don't have a problem w/ him in the P4P because that is much more subjective than actual weight class rankings. Him in the LW ranks is absolutely laughable. At least he's been competitive in his losses to the 2 top WWs in recent history. Might as well rank Coleman at HW then in that case then.
DoTheMMAth
2/16/07 7:58:36PM
That's a tough one though, his last fight was at WW and his next fight is most like at LW from all rumors... where the hell do you plant him? lol

My biggest surprise was here

I really did not expect to see Arlovski ranked over Hunt, but that's what the general consensus of (last time I checked) over 500 people on this site think.
OB_Juan
2/16/07 8:02:11PM
So what if his next fight is at LW? Does everybody here have crystal balls or some crap? Besides, even if he does beat Jens it will prove nothing in the LW ranks. Penn definitely has the potential to be a top WW or LW but none of his recent accomplishments suggest he deserves being placed there currently.
dragomort
2/16/07 8:08:07PM
In the past two years he's 1-3 with his one win against Renzo. He may be top 10 in talent, but not in any objective ranking format for MMA at any weight-class until he puts some recent wins together.
Chivo
2/16/07 8:09:59PM

Posted by DoTheMMAth

That's a tough one though, his last fight was at WW and his next fight is most like at LW from all rumors... where the hell do you plant him? lol



I plant him on neither list. As mentioned he has not done anything in either weight class to warrant a high ranking. But ESPECIALLY in the LW devision.
dragomort
2/16/07 8:12:24PM
Also, Hunt should be over AA, Lindland over Hendo and Shaolin should be ranked quite a bit higher as a LW. Other than that it's pretty good and better than most lists.
OB_Juan
2/16/07 8:15:48PM

Posted by dragomort

Also, Hunt should be over AA, Lindland over Hendo and Shaolin should be ranked quite a bit higher as a LW. Other than that it's pretty good and better than most lists.



I could give 2 craps about Hunt's placing. I fully agree about Woogie and Shaolin deserving to be higher. Actually, I think it's more a matter of Hendo being way too high.
Chivo
2/16/07 8:22:08PM

Posted by OB_Juan
Actually, I think it's more a matter of Hendo being way too high.




dragomort
2/16/07 8:26:54PM

Posted by OB_Juan
Actually, I think it's more a matter of Hendo being way too high.


But....he's the champ!
As for Hunt, I just guess that his BS win over Mirko gives him more credit to me than AA in his 1/3 vs Sylvia. I suppose it's not too much of a difference since it's been about 2 years though and it's value and relevence keeps growing less and less.
DoTheMMAth
2/16/07 8:29:31PM
The rankings were left wide open and are based on people's success in voting on fight picks (on events where they made a pick for every fight). Granted, there's only been 1 event so far, but as more and more events pass the difference in vote value between the "psychich" predicters and the casual enthusiast will be widened. I know it may not make sense to you, but you can only blame your fellow MMA Playground users
OB_Juan
2/16/07 8:30:41PM

Posted by dragomort


Posted by OB_Juan
Actually, I think it's more a matter of Hendo being way too high.


But....he's the champ!
As for Hunt, I just guess that his BS win over Mirko gives him more credit to me than AA in his 1/3 vs Sylvia. I suppose it's not too much of a difference since it's been about 2 years though and it's value and relevence keeps growing less and less.



As far as the HW div goes, it doesn't matter too much as long as the top 5 are Fedor, Mirko, Nog, Barnett, and Sylvia. After that... meh. Who cares?
Chivo
2/16/07 8:30:43PM
And I completely agree that Shaolin needs to be higher then that. ALOT higher IMO.
Betro
2/16/07 8:32:19PM
How can BJ Penn and freakin' Sean Sherk be ranked higher than Vitor Shaolin? I don't think rankings are about who you think would win in a fight but rather what they have done in their recent history in the weight class they are being ranked. If anyone thinks Shaolin would lose to either guy it's their oppinion, but neither have done much to be ranked higher than him especially Sherk who has one freaking fight at that weight against Florian who's only win at LW was against Stout. GZ, Ishida, Franca, Stevenson, Boku, Aurelio have deserve to be there over Sherk.
OB_Juan
2/16/07 8:39:38PM

Posted by DoTheMMAth

The rankings were left wide open and are based on people's success in voting on fight picks (on events where they made a pick for every fight). Granted, there's only been 1 event so far, but as more and more events pass the difference in vote value between the "psychich" predicters and the casual enthusiast will be widened. I know it may not make sense to you, but you can only blame your fellow MMA Playground users



Oh, I understand fully how the ranks were tabulated and scored. I was just hoping to get some of the apparent many yahoos in here to defend their reasoning for ranking a fighter at #6 that has even competed in the div since 2003.

Actually, since many people didn't even include Penn at LW then that means there must have been fools o'plenty that had him in the top 2 or 3.

Personally, I don't think a fighter should even be eligible to be ranked in 2 divs at the same time. Seriously, how the hell did Penn even get on the LW ballot? Because of a rumored fight in the future vs a top 25 fighter who he already lost to?

So if I want to go into the Add A Fighter thingy could I also add him to the MW div. I mean, he's had a few wins in that div a helluva lot more recently than he has at LW. Hell, he was competitive vs Lyoto who was a HW at the time. Might as well rank him there too.

BTW, I'm not trying to rag on you personally, it just seems apparent that there are flaws in the system. IMO he should only be considered for WW until he actually competes at LW in which case he should then be removed from the WW ballot.
dragomort
2/16/07 8:40:17PM

Posted by DoTheMMAth

The rankings were left wide open and are based on people's success in voting on fight picks (on events where they made a pick for every fight). Granted, there's only been 1 event so far, but as more and more events pass the difference in vote value between the "psychich" predicters and the casual enthusiast will be widened. I know it may not make sense to you, but you can only blame your fellow MMA Playground users



True and such is the problem in rankings. There just always seems to be something horribly wrong in them
OB_Juan
2/16/07 8:48:47PM

Posted by Betro

How can BJ Penn and freakin' Sean Sherk be ranked higher than Vitor Shaolin? I don't think rankings are about who you think would win in a fight but rather what they have done in their recent history in the weight class they are being ranked. If anyone thinks Shaolin would lose to either guy it's their oppinion, but neither have done much to be ranked higher than him especially Sherk who has one freaking fight at that weight against Florian who's only win at LW was against Stout. GZ, Ishida, Franca, Stevenson, Boku, Aurelio have deserve to be there over Sherk.



Agreed. I'd take any of those guys being ranked over Sherk. In fact, in my rankings Ishida, Franca and JZ all WERE.

Sherk has the [b][i]potential[/i][/b] to be a top dog in the div in the near future given the right match ups and activity level. But beating Kenny Flrian does not a top 10 fighter make.
OB_Juan
2/16/07 8:59:31PM
http://www.mmaplayground.com/forums/topic1513-1.html


Posted by AchillesHeel

I was browsing the Top 10 Rankings that are being assembled here, and I noticed something odd: B.J. is ranked #8 on the P4P list, #4 on the Welterweight list, and #6 on the Lightweight list.

Penn is rated ahead of Matt Hughes on the "P4P" list (Hughes is 10th), but is behind Hughes on the Welterweight list. On the Lightweights list, Penn is ranked behind Aoki, Sherk, Sakurai, and Melendez, none of whom appear on the "P4P" list at all. None of that math makes any sense, and yet it's hard to say that people are completely up a tree.

From reading comments around the web, Penn seems to draw a lot of ire for having lost his last two fights. That those fights were against two of the best fighters in the sport - guys generally regarded as #1 & #2 in the division - and that Penn very nearly won both of those fights aren't relevant factors for everyone. For some people, a loss is a loss, and if you're 0-2 you can't be considered "good", sorry kid, better luck next time.

There's also the weight class dilemma. Personally, I rate B.J. as the #2 Lightweight in the world right now, (almost) sight unseen. Some of you will understandably call me a whack-job for rating him so highly in a division he hasn't touched in a long time. Personally, I think he'd take guys like Kawajiri and Melendez to school. Of course, I also rate B.J. as the 3rd-best Welterweight. Want to break Diego's winning streak? Give him to B.J.

I'm probably making some people insane right about now, aren't I?

Added confusion comes from the new and casual UFC fans I talked about in the other thread. B.J.'s absence from the UFC corresponded neatly with the explosion in popularity brought on by The Ultimate Fighter. By the time of B.J.'s return to the Octagon, half the audience had never heard of him before.

It wasn't long ago that people talked about Penn as the best fighter in the world, pound-for-pound. Of course, things have moved very fast in this sport. And I think they'll continue to move fast. I expect Penn to be the UFC Lightweight champion sometime next Autumn, after he wraps up Pulver.

Oh, and Penn has already punked Gomi once; I think he could do it again. Now who wouldn't want to see that fight?




Bwahahahahahaha!!!!!


Chivo
2/16/07 9:07:29PM
Well there you have it. Case closed.

MMA
2/16/07 9:08:22PM
I placed Rua over Liddell, I thought others would have thought so too. He has amazing skills and he is nowhere near his prime yet, whereas Liddell is at/past his prime already.

I could see Rua getting a win over Liddell.
hippysmacker
2/16/07 9:10:31PM
Rankings are always subjective, because they are people's personal opinions. I really don't care where anyone else ranks them. I have mine, and until I get to see every guy fight every guy in every weight class it's all realtive. Fun thing to have though. One of my favorite features of the sight.
OB_Juan
2/16/07 9:19:52PM

Posted by MMA

I placed Rua over Liddell, I thought others would have thought so too. He has amazing skills and he is nowhere near his prime yet, whereas Liddell is at/past his prime already.

I could see Rua getting a win over Liddell.



I definitely had Shogun at #1 a year ago. Chuck has accomplished a helluva lot more lately though. The way I see it is that KOing Tito, Babalu and Randy is better than finishing Diabate, Randleman, and decisioning Nakamura. To be honest, as long as they are the top 2, I could care less.

Chuck vs Shogun is definitely a current dream fight of mine and would certainly help clear things up a bit. My fingers are crossed.
Betro
2/16/07 9:21:25PM
"Posted by AchillesHeel

I was browsing the Top 10 Rankings that are being assembled here, and I noticed something odd: B.J. is ranked #8 on the P4P list, #4 on the Welterweight list, and #6 on the Lightweight list.

Penn is rated ahead of Matt Hughes on the "P4P" list (Hughes is 10th), but is behind Hughes on the Welterweight list. On the Lightweights list, Penn is ranked behind Aoki, Sherk, Sakurai, and Melendez, none of whom appear on the "P4P" list at all. None of that math makes any sense, and yet it's hard to say that people are completely up a tree.

From reading comments around the web, Penn seems to draw a lot of ire for having lost his last two fights. That those fights were against two of the best fighters in the sport - guys generally regarded as #1 & #2 in the division - and that Penn very nearly won both of those fights aren't relevant factors for everyone. For some people, a loss is a loss, and if you're 0-2 you can't be considered "good", sorry kid, better luck next time.

There's also the weight class dilemma. Personally, I rate B.J. as the #2 Lightweight in the world right now, (almost) sight unseen. Some of you will understandably call me a whack-job for rating him so highly in a division he hasn't touched in a long time. Personally, I think he'd take guys like Kawajiri and Melendez to school. Of course, I also rate B.J. as the 3rd-best Welterweight. Want to break Diego's winning streak? Give him to B.J.

I'm probably making some people insane right about now, aren't I?

Added confusion comes from the new and casual UFC fans I talked about in the other thread. B.J.'s absence from the UFC corresponded neatly with the explosion in popularity brought on by The Ultimate Fighter. By the time of B.J.'s return to the Octagon, half the audience had never heard of him before.

It wasn't long ago that people talked about Penn as the best fighter in the world, pound-for-pound. Of course, things have moved very fast in this sport. And I think they'll continue to move fast. I expect Penn to be the UFC Lightweight champion sometime next Autumn, after he wraps up Pulver.

Oh, and Penn has already punked Gomi once; I think he could do it again. Now who wouldn't want to see that fight? "

So you rank him because you think he can beat those guys? Well I thnk Arona can beat Liddell and Marquardt can be A Silva so should I rank Marquardt over Silva even though he hasn't beaten the talent that silva has, or should I rank Arona over Liddell even though Arona doesnt have a good a record as Liddell? I don't think rankings should just be who has the better win/loss record, you have to account for things like there opponents records and such.
dragomort
2/16/07 9:24:05PM

Posted by MMA

I placed Rua over Liddell, I thought others would have thought so too. He has amazing skills and he is nowhere near his prime yet, whereas Liddell is at/past his prime already.

I could see Rua getting a win over Liddell.



A year ago I would have agreed with you in full. In that time Liddell has fought the best available and dominated them with authority while Shogun has gotten an arm broken loss to Coleman (not that it matter when looking at LHW rank, but it is important when looking at the fighter and what to see in his future given that he still isn't at the same level at all that he was prior) and rather lackluster wins over 2 fighters, only one of which is in the top ten and he's hanging at the bottom. Besides, it's not mainly about who could beat whom, it's about what they've shown in their past fights and where they've proven they belong in the division. - i.e. Just because I think Aurelio could take Gomi in another rematch doesn't make him #1 at all.
dragomort
2/16/07 9:29:51PM

Posted by hippysmacker

Rankings are always subjective, because they are people's personal opinions. I really don't care where anyone else ranks them. I have mine, and until I get to see every guy fight every guy in every weight class it's all realtive. Fun thing to have though. One of my favorite features of the sight.



That's true, but you can't help but get a little confused if not upset at people who don't put any thought or reasoning into their rankings. I don't care if we have differences in opinions, but I'd certainly like to see anyone justify things like Florian at #1, etc.
OB_Juan
2/16/07 9:33:49PM

Posted by Betro

So you rank him because you think he can beat those guys? Well I thnk Arona can beat Liddell and Marquardt can be A Silva so should I rank Marquardt over Silva even though he hasn't beaten the talent that silva has, or should I rank Arona over Liddell even though Arona doesnt have a good a record as Liddell? I don't think rankings should just be who has the better win/loss record, you have to account for things like there opponents records and such.



I fully agree. I mean, if Roidleman can KO CroCop then it wouldn't be that far off to think Sylvia could KO Fedor. Should I rank Timmy at #1?

And yes, a fighter's record on paper certainly does not tell the whole story. Look at Randy and Vitor's last 2 fights. Vitor's fluke cut causing grazing punch isn't nearly as decisive as the beating Randy handed him in return. For example.
MMA
2/16/07 9:55:34PM
If you look at Liddell's past fights, they have all been mainly grapplers (e.g. Couture, Horn, Sobral, Ortiz). Although his performances were dominant, I would like to see how well Liddell fairs against a talented striker (such as Rua).

Recall back in the days when Liddell got beat by Jackson. If you watch his other 2 PRIDE fights, he was losing to both Mezger and Overeem in the stand-up until he hit them with his looping punch.

I know the past is the past, and Liddell has definitely gotten better, but the fact is, he has been untested in his stand-up for quite sometime now. The Jackson rematch should be a very interesting fight because Jackson has an awesome chin and is a good striker (although not at the caliber of Rua or Silva).
OB_Juan
2/16/07 10:44:49PM

Posted by MMA

If you look at Liddell's past fights, they have all been mainly grapplers (e.g. Couture, Horn, Sobral, Ortiz). Although his performances were dominant, I would like to see how well Liddell fairs against a talented striker (such as Rua).

Recall back in the days when Liddell got beat by Jackson. If you watch his other 2 PRIDE fights, he was losing to both Mezger and Overeem in the stand-up until he hit them with his looping punch.

I know the past is the past, and Liddell has definitely gotten better, but the fact is, he has been untested in his stand-up for quite sometime now. The Jackson rematch should be a very interesting fight because Jackson has an awesome chin and is a good striker (although not at the caliber of Rua or Silva).



There is no denying that Chuck has had some match ups that have benefitted him stylistically (grapplers), That's just a fact. However, the guys he's beat were ranked pretty high at the time. IMO that's what needs to be weighed more than if he only beat one dimensional opponents or whatever.

I hope Chuck does fight another good striker soon and he loses because I don't particularly care for him too much but IMO he deserves the top spot. If Shogun pwns Alistair and then gets another good win and Chuck is inactive that might be enough to sway me but not yet.
DCBooks
2/17/07 3:36:15PM

Posted by MMA

I placed Rua over Liddell, I thought others would have thought so too. He has amazing skills and he is nowhere near his prime yet, whereas Liddell is at/past his prime already.

I could see Rua getting a win over Liddell.



We can all see it, but until it happens you shouldn't rank it like it has.

What if it happens and Liddell drops him? That could easily happen as well, and all your prognostication has done is base you rankings on what if, not what is.

MMA
2/17/07 3:41:57PM

Posted by DCBooks


Posted by MMA

I placed Rua over Liddell, I thought others would have thought so too. He has amazing skills and he is nowhere near his prime yet, whereas Liddell is at/past his prime already.

I could see Rua getting a win over Liddell.



We can all see it, but until it happens you shouldn't rank it like it has.

What if it happens and Liddell drops him? That could easily happen as well, and all your prognostication has done is base you rankings on what if, not what is.





So are you saying that Liddell is definitely better than Rua? There is always a subjective aspect to rankings (particularly for P4P rankings).
OB_Juan
2/17/07 4:12:12PM

Posted by MMA


Posted by DCBooks


Posted by MMA

I placed Rua over Liddell, I thought others would have thought so too. He has amazing skills and he is nowhere near his prime yet, whereas Liddell is at/past his prime already.

I could see Rua getting a win over Liddell.



We can all see it, but until it happens you shouldn't rank it like it has.

What if it happens and Liddell drops him? That could easily happen as well, and all your prognostication has done is base you rankings on what if, not what is.





So are you saying that Liddell is definitely better than Rua? There is always a subjective aspect to rankings (particularly for P4P rankings).



I'm not speaking for DCBooks, but IMO you can't base rankings on what you THINK would happen because as soon as you do you get stuff like Randleman KOing Cro Cop or Edwards armbarring Mishima. There's too many variables.

Until they were actually to fight noone can say for sure who is better. It's just not possible, that's why their recent accomplishments need to be the main factor in ranking.

One thing I will say that Shogun has in his favor is a win over Rampage. Now it becomes a matter of how much you weigh fights from 2 or 3 yrs ago compared to in the last 12 - 18 months or so.

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