MMA knowledge Pro?? I need your help
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MMA knowledge Pro?? I need your help
Kracker_Jap
1/30/08 5:25:58PM
So here it is....
My question is about K1 and the japenese market Vs UFC
I here all the time that the Japenese market has a bigger fan base and pays there fighters more.....
But what I would like to see is the proof, not urban legend, or stats from 5 years ago, I personally find it hard to beleive that the US market is dwarfed by the Japanese "And this comes from someone who is half and half"(KrackerJap)
So lets see it some kind of link to a credible site that can shed light on a question I'm sher alot of people would like to answer
My question is about K1 and the japenese market Vs UFC
I here all the time that the Japenese market has a bigger fan base and pays there fighters more.....
But what I would like to see is the proof, not urban legend, or stats from 5 years ago, I personally find it hard to beleive that the US market is dwarfed by the Japanese "And this comes from someone who is half and half"(KrackerJap)
So lets see it some kind of link to a credible site that can shed light on a question I'm sher alot of people would like to answer
Omega
1/30/08 5:37:00PM
It's relatively true a few years ago. Major fighters get paid a flat fee and also earn gate fees so in the end US fighters can make more. This is why Pride was able to bring many of the US fighters to Japan. They could pay them more as long as they put on a good show. Now the pay structure has changed a bit. We're also talking about two different things. Sports venues vs PPV telivision base. It's very complicated.
Kracker_Jap
1/30/08 9:31:03PM
So far it looks like nobodies down for my Question 
You opinions are also welcome....
I'm gonna do some research on this subject nothin to fancy I'm a bone head but I'll be back with some street knowledge
You opinions are also welcome....
I'm gonna do some research on this subject nothin to fancy I'm a bone head but I'll be back with some street knowledge
fullerene
1/30/08 10:06:39PM
Sorry, I'm not going to do the reseach tonight. But I think the two things that people looked at were:
1. Crowd size; events held in stadiums like the Tokyo Dome and Saitama Super Arena had much higher capacity than the casino and hockey arena shows the UFC puts on. SInce the UFC sells out, perhaps this isn't a fair representation, but the fact remains that more people saw live Pride events than saw live UFC events.
2. Number of people who see events on TV. Particularly on New Year's Eve, Pride and K-1 are given network TV specials in Japan and they receive very high ratings. Since the UFC was only shown on PPV for many years and then on a cable channel, the number of people who viewed K-1 and Pride events was much higher. Once again, though, this isn't really fair. If ABC or CBS decided to broadcast a free UFC show, it might have a viewership that was even better.
I know that I've seen numbers for attendance and TV market share (I'm sure you could get them from old Wrestling Observer newsletters), but I don't have them.
One thing that would be very tough to argue (but also to quantify) is the level of celebrity that people like Bob Sapp, Masato and Sakuraba have in Japan. I don't think there's anything comparable in U.S. MMA and probably only a handful of U.S. athletes (Tiger Woods, Michael Jordan, MIke Tyson, ??) have the type of marketing clout and name recognition in the U.S. that the most famous fighters have in Japan.
1. Crowd size; events held in stadiums like the Tokyo Dome and Saitama Super Arena had much higher capacity than the casino and hockey arena shows the UFC puts on. SInce the UFC sells out, perhaps this isn't a fair representation, but the fact remains that more people saw live Pride events than saw live UFC events.
2. Number of people who see events on TV. Particularly on New Year's Eve, Pride and K-1 are given network TV specials in Japan and they receive very high ratings. Since the UFC was only shown on PPV for many years and then on a cable channel, the number of people who viewed K-1 and Pride events was much higher. Once again, though, this isn't really fair. If ABC or CBS decided to broadcast a free UFC show, it might have a viewership that was even better.
I know that I've seen numbers for attendance and TV market share (I'm sure you could get them from old Wrestling Observer newsletters), but I don't have them.
One thing that would be very tough to argue (but also to quantify) is the level of celebrity that people like Bob Sapp, Masato and Sakuraba have in Japan. I don't think there's anything comparable in U.S. MMA and probably only a handful of U.S. athletes (Tiger Woods, Michael Jordan, MIke Tyson, ??) have the type of marketing clout and name recognition in the U.S. that the most famous fighters have in Japan.
Manfred
1/31/08 3:29:18AM
I'm current in South Korea and K-1 is on their version of ESPN nearly every night. Also every UFC PPV is on free here and I guess that's the case in a lot of Asia.
fullerene is right, watch some PRIDE DVDs and you'll here them talking about 80-100k size crowds all the time. You can see it in the crowd shots. Many foreign fighters (Fedor, Cro Cop, Coleman, Sapp and others) make a good amount of cash sponsoring main stream products like Gillette, Dole (Remember that Coleman pic?
) They had lots of popularity just from being in PRIDE.
Not that Wiki is always accurate, but for what it's worth:
fullerene is right, watch some PRIDE DVDs and you'll here them talking about 80-100k size crowds all the time. You can see it in the crowd shots. Many foreign fighters (Fedor, Cro Cop, Coleman, Sapp and others) make a good amount of cash sponsoring main stream products like Gillette, Dole (Remember that Coleman pic?
) They had lots of popularity just from being in PRIDE. Not that Wiki is always accurate, but for what it's worth:
PRIDE Fighting Championships was initially conceived in 1997 by Kakutougi Revolution Spirits to match popular Japanese pro-wrestler Nobuhiko Takada with Rickson Gracie, the purported champion of the Gracie family of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu practitioners. The event, held at the Tokyo Dome on October 11, 1997 attracted 47,000 fans, as well as Japanese mass media attention.
In August 2002, PRIDE teamed up with Japan's leading kickboxing and fight promotion, K-1, and held the worlds biggest fight event, Shockwave (known as PRIDE/K-1 Dynamite!! in Japan), which attracted over 90,000 fans.
Kpro
1/31/08 4:04:03AM
Posted by Kracker_Jap
My question is about K1 and the japenese market Vs UFC
I here all the time that the Japenese market has a bigger fan base and pays there fighters more.....
But what I would like to see is the proof, not urban legend, or stats from 5 years ago, I personally find it hard to beleive that the US market is dwarfed by the Japanese "And this comes from someone who is half and half"(KrackerJap)
So lets see it some kind of link to a credible site that can shed light on a question I'm sher alot of people would like to answer
I doubt any facts of that nature exist publicly to show either market having an advantage.
In all honesty, with yourself posing the question and your expressed doubts; I'd like to see you show some evidence either way to get the ball rolling.
Kpro
1/31/08 4:25:01AM
For the record though, I do agree that the Japanese pay scale is a little bit of an urban legend.
Omega
1/31/08 11:30:37AM
Posted by Kracker_Jap
So far it looks like nobodies down for my Question
You opinions are also welcome....
I'm gonna do some research on this subject nothin to fancy I'm a bone head but I'll be back with some street knowledge
I don't understand this comment after I posted but realize my facts come from:
a. I talk to a few managers and fighters that have fought for m-1, K-1 and formerly Pride
b. I knew the owners of WEC before they sold it to UFC
c. I've promoted a few shows.
As everybody's trying to tell you there's a lot more to it than it looks. If you want a frank answer, yes the Japanese promotions pay more up front money and they take care of the fighters like they were celeberties.
mrsmiley
2/2/08 4:13:45PM
I looked into this a little bit and this is the best I could find.
While this deals more with PRIDE than K-1,it might help you a little bit.
In the 2003 June issue of Ultimate Athlete,they touch upon this subject.The article writer was Brian Johnston and while their isn't a lot of info,the article is basicly talking about all the fight promotions that were springing up.
Here's a piece of the article:
"Undoubtedly,the granddaddy of all MMA events is the UFC.It is the most prestigious fight organization,and almost all up and coming young fighters dream of eventually competing in the event,but it is hardly the only fight organization.
Japans top event,PRIDE,is going strong,despite rumors of the giants down fall."
While this isn't a big piece of information,this was written in 2003 and rumors of PRIDES downfall were already in the air,while the writer talks about the UFC still going strong.Maybe it was just the writer being biased,but that is the best I can do for now.I know,it's not a big wow factor,but maybe that can lead you in the right direction.
While this deals more with PRIDE than K-1,it might help you a little bit.
In the 2003 June issue of Ultimate Athlete,they touch upon this subject.The article writer was Brian Johnston and while their isn't a lot of info,the article is basicly talking about all the fight promotions that were springing up.
Here's a piece of the article:
"Undoubtedly,the granddaddy of all MMA events is the UFC.It is the most prestigious fight organization,and almost all up and coming young fighters dream of eventually competing in the event,but it is hardly the only fight organization.
Japans top event,PRIDE,is going strong,despite rumors of the giants down fall."
While this isn't a big piece of information,this was written in 2003 and rumors of PRIDES downfall were already in the air,while the writer talks about the UFC still going strong.Maybe it was just the writer being biased,but that is the best I can do for now.I know,it's not a big wow factor,but maybe that can lead you in the right direction.
Omega
2/3/08 10:25:01PM
LOL, that's just irony. Brian is actually one of my sources.
hippysmacker
2/3/08 11:10:33PM
According to a large portion of the fighters( Cro-cop, Rampage,Wandy, Fedor etc. ) the UFC offered them more than they made in Pride. Now 2 and a half years ago the fighters said the opposite. So The success of TUF , and UFC consequently having the ability to pay fighters more now is the key, as Pride used to pay more than the UFC. The only Pride guy to ever be documented making more than a million per fight ( Chuck , Randy, Tito, have been making more for the last year in a half with PPV revenue) is Yoshida. As for K-1 I have no idea what their top draws make, but The UFC payed the most in MMA now supposedly. One other footnote that is the exception to the rule is that Fedor was supposedly guaranteed 2 million per fight by M-1 according to the mma media . I have never seen figures that document this , or a quote from Fedor himself on this however. Doesn't mean it is isn't true or false . Take it as you will. My guess is a lot of the UFC's new competitors will soon, if they don't already , pay one top guy as much or more than the UFc to be a draw. On the whole though , especially if you keep winning, the UFc pays the most currently. I will be interested to see what Tito gets if he does in fact leave the UFC.
cmill21
2/3/08 11:17:10PM
Are you asking about K-1 or K-1 Hero's? I know how much each event for K-1 is worth but not for Hero's. Certain K-1 events are worth 48,000 some are worth 250,000 it all depends. There are however huuuge advertisement deals there for alot of the K-1 guys, Peter Aerts, Bob Sapp, guys like them made huuuge money from ads.