MIr vs. Noguira II Question

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bsh162007
8/4/10 8:05:55PM
Just wanted to ask this and get everyones opinion but does anyone seriously think that NOG has a chance against Frank I mean as much as everyone likes to hate on Frank you got to give him his credit where its do I mean the guy is a beast of a man. The first time wasnt a fluke and the whole staph thing i think got blown up too much. But i think this fight will be even more of a beating than the first time because Frank is only getting better and stronger I would also like to say that im not putting NOG down he is a legend of the sport and i have much respect for him but i even think with NOG in his prime MIr takes it.
Jackelope
8/4/10 8:08:04PM
I wouldn't pick Mir over Prime Nog, but I will pick today's Mir over today's Nog.

I really hope this turns into a ground battle at some point and Nog proves Mir (nor hardly anyone else in the UFC) doesn't want to be on the ground with him.
sbulldavid
8/4/10 8:39:11PM
I don't think a prime Nog beats Mir. But we've never really seen Mir have to defend against submissions, but I believe most of the middle tier fighters would defeat most of yesterday's greats consistently because they know what to avoid and how to game plan against other fighter. Still, Nog is never out of a match until he's out cold or the clock runs out, so we'll wait and see, you can't doubt his heart.
Caesarrrr
8/4/10 9:48:01PM
I actually want this to go to the ground. I think Mir is too smart for that, and Nog hasn't got the takedowns, but it'll be a much more exciting fight.
ace_of_god
8/4/10 11:37:56PM
I think Mir will come out and show off his skills which have continued to develop. I think his stand up is much more effective then Nogs, and if it does hit the ground its cause Nog is dazed. But this is MMA and nothing is for certain.
Jackelope
8/5/10 2:40:00AM

Posted by sbulldavid

I don't think a prime Nog beats Mir.



It's definitely an interesting subject of debate. The reason why I believe Prime Nog would win is this-

I think Nog's boxing combined with his iron chin are overlooked by today's fans. You gotta remember Nog started every single fight he was ever in on the feet, and he somehow managed to find a way to get opponents who are much tougher to get to the ground than Mir is down there and into his world.

Once on the ground Nog is a master of the position battling game. Of the two people I can think of who dominated positions and avoided submissions against Nog the names are Fedor and Barnett. Barnett is known for his incredible ground control, most notably his submission defense and ability to smother from the top. Fedor is just Fedor.

Mir has never been known as a position dominating grappler. Of all his submissions the only one I can think of that came from a dominant position was his submission over Antoni Hardonk. Which, if I'm not mistaken, came on a reversal of position. (I could be wrong but I believe Mir was on the bottom for a portion of that fight. Against Hardonk of all people)

Here are Mir's submission wins in the UFC off the top of my head-

Kongo- submitted off his back in a guillotine
Lesnar- Submitted off his back in a knee bar
Hardonk- already mentioned
Sylvia- submitted in Arm bar off his back (Broke Tim's arm)
Tank Abbot- submitted off his back via toe hold
That one other dude- submitted in a Mir lock. Somewhat of a shoulder lock done ... you guessed it... off his back.

Compare that to Nog's position dominant BJJ game. I mean Nog made Randy, a master of positional dominance, look like a novice on the ground with his reversals. Nog is a true BJJ master. I give Mir plenty of props... where offensive oriented BJJ is concerned there are few who can match Mir's arsenal in MMA, but in the position and overall BJJ game I have to say Prime Nog would more than likely run roughshod over Mir.
Pookie
8/5/10 6:32:41AM
Nog in his Prime beats the best Mir that ever fought. It's not even close.
KingCmb
8/5/10 8:27:59AM

Posted by Jackelope


Posted by sbulldavid

I don't think a prime Nog beats Mir.



It's definitely an interesting subject of debate. The reason why I believe Prime Nog would win is this-

I think Nog's boxing combined with his iron chin are overlooked by today's fans. You gotta remember Nog started every single fight he was ever in on the feet, and he somehow managed to find a way to get opponents who are much tougher to get to the ground than Mir is down there and into his world.

Once on the ground Nog is a master of the position battling game. Of the two people I can think of who dominated positions and avoided submissions against Nog the names are Fedor and Barnett. Barnett is known for his incredible ground control, most notably his submission defense and ability to smother from the top. Fedor is just Fedor.

Mir has never been known as a position dominating grappler. Of all his submissions the only one I can think of that came from a dominant position was his submission over Antoni Hardonk. Which, if I'm not mistaken, came on a reversal of position. (I could be wrong but I believe Mir was on the bottom for a portion of that fight. Against Hardonk of all people)

Here are Mir's submission wins in the UFC off the top of my head-

Kongo- submitted off his back in a guillotine
Lesnar- Submitted off his back in a knee bar
Hardonk- already mentioned
Sylvia- submitted in Arm bar off his back (Broke Tim's arm)
Tank Abbot- submitted off his back via toe hold
That one other dude- submitted in a Mir lock. Somewhat of a shoulder lock done ... you guessed it... off his back.

Compare that to Nog's position dominant BJJ game. I mean Nog made Randy, a master of positional dominance, look like a novice on the ground with his reversals. Nog is a true BJJ master. I give Mir plenty of props... where offensive oriented BJJ is concerned there are few who can match Mir's arsenal in MMA, but in the position and overall BJJ game I have to say Prime Nog would more than likely run roughshod over Mir.




this is a great way to put it however i pick prime mir over prime nog because while hes really yet to have to show it he imo has it in him to defend subs the only example i have is that while you are right hardonk was on top mir not only reversed position but hardonk actually had a kimora in (if i remember correctly)

*also jackalope mir subbmitted roberto travan in the ufc also


while most of mirs subs do come of his back he sets most them up with strikes withch is something i dont think nog or most pure grapplers can handle
ace_of_god
8/5/10 9:16:33AM
I don't even think we have seen Mir's Prime with the exception of the Carwin fight, which he got decimated. Frank Mir has really turned the corner since his loss to Lesnar.
Pookie
8/5/10 10:43:04AM
I disagree, He put on the weight to do better specifically against wrestlers, but it ended up slowing down his striking and his mobility. Making his striking edge harder to exploit. And to top it off he still got smothered by the wrestlers he beefed up to fight against. The mass increase hurt his chances in every single conceivable way.
His best fight weight is at 250.

____

Now i think Nog beats Mir (both in their primes) because of the way Frank loses confidence in his striking when you hit him repeadedly. Nog may not hit Heavyweight hard, but hes sharp, quick, and he throws combo's extremely well. I think he'd break Mir's will via the volume of connected shots while Mir tries to single shot him.

On the ground, i see it as a wash. Nog has the better transitions, Mir is more likely to get the takedown. Niether fighter is going to sub the other.

But on the feet, i give a definite advantage to prime Nog.
1daveufc
8/5/10 1:48:08PM
I think mir takes this again by tko! nog has no head movement any more and just keeps walking forwad and mir is getting better with his striking a see it same as last time.
prozacnation1978
8/6/10 12:45:40PM
I picked nog over mir first time and was shell shocked on how good mir looked
Mir is bigger and his striking is better. Other hand nog has a glass chin now
Crazy knowing in all his fights in ufc he has only managed to sub out one guy only
I really wanted to see nog vs cro cop. But. I gotta go with mir
Question is. If nog loses. Will he retire or get cut??

He still has some bouts. Left. Nelson vs nog. Nog vs cro cop
Nog vs gonzaga. Nog vs yvel. Maybe even nog vs lesnar one day.
thebestout
8/10/10 1:02:11AM
Maybe even Nog vs Lesnar one day? Man are you serious?
ChrisSabal
8/10/10 3:35:54AM

Posted by thebestout

Maybe even Nog vs Lesnar one day? Man are you serious?



Think about it Lesnar loses the title he has a chance to fight Nog. So there ya go!
BustedKnuckle
8/11/10 5:39:21PM
I have such a respect for Nog thats i find it very hard to pick against him. I think if it goes tot he ground......he has a very legit chance of beating Mir. But if he chooses to stand and box Frank......it's the same result as the first fight!
d_enq
8/13/10 1:45:53AM
On the ground, there is no heavyweight that can roll with Nog, maybe werdum, but Nog wins more often than not. Mir doesnt stand a chance here, hence the reason he wouldn't follow Nog there during the first fight.

Nog has problems with fighters who are quicker than he is as age and his battles are more than likely catching up with him. I think this is why Cain was able to dominate the standup .

As for the first Mir/Nog fight, Nog I honeslty don't even remember Nog throwing any punches. Mir has the overhand left and nothing else. He jumps forward with a jab and overhand left. He caught Kongo with it and won, but if they fought again I think Kongo wins.

With the way Frank jumps forward I think if Nog doesn't win the standupup he will be able to in the very least clinch and get the TD. From there, its his fight.

As for Nogs glass jaw, I think he has shown much more than Mir, by far. Mir folds as soon as he gets hit, Nog takes punishment like no other.

Finally, if anybody thinks a Prime Nog wouldn't beat a Prime Mir you are crazy. If you don't think you have seen a Prime Mir, what the hell are you waiting for? Mir has and always will be full of hype. I thought the huge strength gain was supposed to be his resurrection? Or maybe his new found striking? Truth is he can't take a shot. Once he gets hit he folds. He has tons of talent, but can't take a solid shot. The formula is there.

Edit: spell/grammar check the whole post
bjj1605
8/14/10 1:53:11AM

Posted by Jackelope


Posted by sbulldavid

I don't think a prime Nog beats Mir.



It's definitely an interesting subject of debate. The reason why I believe Prime Nog would win is this-

I think Nog's boxing combined with his iron chin are overlooked by today's fans. You gotta remember Nog started every single fight he was ever in on the feet, and he somehow managed to find a way to get opponents who are much tougher to get to the ground than Mir is down there and into his world.

Once on the ground Nog is a master of the position battling game. Of the two people I can think of who dominated positions and avoided submissions against Nog the names are Fedor and Barnett. Barnett is known for his incredible ground control, most notably his submission defense and ability to smother from the top. Fedor is just Fedor.

Mir has never been known as a position dominating grappler. Of all his submissions the only one I can think of that came from a dominant position was his submission over Antoni Hardonk. Which, if I'm not mistaken, came on a reversal of position. (I could be wrong but I believe Mir was on the bottom for a portion of that fight. Against Hardonk of all people)

Here are Mir's submission wins in the UFC off the top of my head-

Kongo- submitted off his back in a guillotine
Lesnar- Submitted off his back in a knee bar
Hardonk- already mentioned
Sylvia- submitted in Arm bar off his back (Broke Tim's arm)
Tank Abbot- submitted off his back via toe hold
That one other dude- submitted in a Mir lock. Somewhat of a shoulder lock done ... you guessed it... off his back.

Compare that to Nog's position dominant BJJ game. I mean Nog made Randy, a master of positional dominance, look like a novice on the ground with his reversals. Nog is a true BJJ master. I give Mir plenty of props... where offensive oriented BJJ is concerned there are few who can match Mir's arsenal in MMA, but in the position and overall BJJ game I have to say Prime Nog would more than likely run roughshod over Mir.



I completely agree with you. Mir has good submissions but other than that his grappling is actually not that great. His wrestling isn't good and neither is his positional grappling. He lost a BJJ match to Roy Nelson (not to knock Roy, just making a point) who's BJJ isn't nearly as touted as Mir's.

I doubt Mir can grapple with Nog, even today's Nog. Luckily for him I doubt this fight ever hits the mat.
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